About pvp

[Sir Seal The Slippery]

First,im glad that you removed evasion from pvp.
Makes it less luck based,and it can be very frustrating if a important skill that decides about winning or losing,gets dodged.
Its also nice that you have to face your opponent,to actually fight him.
I wasnt able to test this yet,since nobody was there to pvp with in the pvp area,but i imagine that it will make combat more skill based,since people might try to get behind their target.

Now,what i dont like,is the scaling,and the fact that gear is completely useless in pvp,and i will also tell you why:

I dont know if this was just done for the sake of testing pvp out,or if its going to stay like this,but you really shouldnt keep it.
These days,it becomes harder and harder to find a mmorpg with,,traditional pvp''.
Wow has scaling and stat reduction for items now,ESO does,GW2..........
Its like every mmorpg wants to jump on the moba/esports train now,and its really bothering me.
Getting better equipment is a core aspect of a mmorpg,always has been.
Youre supposed to watch your character become stronger over time,thats part of the fun.
If youre fighting a boss with bad equipment and a low lvl,you may lose....but if you come back later,with a higher lvl and better equipment,and you win,it feels very satisfying,you feel rewarded for your,,work'',its awesome.

But in pvp?
There your character progression doesnt matter at all,and this is especially frustrating for people who are more into pvp than pve.
They have no reason to get better equipment or lvl up their character,its simply pointless and not fun,there is no motivation because it will be useless for their favorite part of the game.
Pvp isnt just about seeing who is the better player,its also about seeing who is the,,stronger''player,aka,who hits harder,and who worked harder for his gear.
I know,many people dont want to hear it,but thats how it always has been,people had to actually work for their equipment and be useful in pvp.
In wow,you could get oneshotted easily by high lvls with much better equipment than yours,but for me this was always a strong motivation to be just like them,one day.
And once you manage to do that,you really feel like you did something important,that all your hard work finally paid off,and youre proud of it,that youre finally being one of,,those guys'',the people with max lvl and the best equipment.
Basically,from a noob to a onehitter.

Now,i know that AQ3D,s target audience,isnt exactly the hardcore gamer,more the casual player.
But really,getting your character,or a class,to max lvl,isnt very hard to do.
Equipment isnt so hard to get aswell,and it doesnt make such a huge difference.
If you really have to,keep the lvl scaling for pvp,but let us use the stats of our equipment there aswell,so that we actually feel rewarded for getting it in the first place.
Its also part of customizing your character,because there isnt simply,,the best''gear,but equipment that can boost different stats,and you can decide what you want to use.
Pvp feels more like a moba/fighting game/shooter now(NOT because of the gameplay),but definatly not like a mmorpg,since character progression doesnt matter at all.
Only your class rank matters,but you can max it in 1 day,and after that,theres nothing left to do.
There isnt so much room for outplaying someone aswell,because you can only use a few skills.

Sorry for the long post,but i really had to get that out,and i hope you consider changing how the current pvp system works,once its about to get finished.

[Blacrow]

Are you actually complaining about skill based PVP and asking for a geared based system?
What the hell?

If the game actually had a more in depth gearing system, with different builds, like, let's say, i build damage and you build lifesteal or attack speed, that would make an interesting gear based match up, but there's nothing like that, the gear is literally just number scaling, there's no reason to make a geared based pvp over that, it just gets annoying to be beaten by a worse player with better equipment, if i play better i should win, i don't care if you spent 1000 hours grinding a stupid shoulder pad that gives you more damage. lol

[Handoiron]

Another thread about giving you an innate advantage over other people in PvP.

Just keep whining until they waste more time on a useless system and delay real content even further so more people forget AQ3D still exists because there is no real content being released.

If you want your transparent self esteem bump from hurting other people in a virtual environment, there are plenty of other alternatives.

Of course, those alternatives are actually moving towards skill and experience instead of gear advantage so you'll have a harder time getting your newb-kill fix I guess.

[Sir Seal The Slippery]

First,did you guys even check the date of this thread?

Originally posted by Blacrow:

Are you actually complaining about skill based PVP and asking for a geared based system?
What the hell?

If the game actually had a more in depth gearing system, with different builds, like, let's say, i build damage and you build lifesteal or attack speed, that would make an interesting gear based match up, but there's nothing like that, the gear is literally just number scaling, there's no reason to make a geared based pvp over that, it just gets annoying to be beaten by a worse player with better equipment, if i play better i should win, i don't care if you spent 1000 hours grinding a stupid shoulder pad that gives you more damage. lol

I dont know when you started to play mmorpg,s but when i started,gear mattered in pvp,it was normal.
Why is it important?
Because it gives you a reason to collect gear in the first place.
Making your character stronger over time,is a important part of the RPG feeling,and you should feel stronger in every aspect the game has to offer,no just pve,but pvp aswell.
The whole,,everyone is even and has the same stats''movement,started going after so many games went free to play and MOBA,s and esports got more popular,it wasnt always that way.
Gear used to matter a lot in wow if you did battlegrounds,and it was great.
As a newbie,i got stomped there,but it was still fun because i thought to myself,,one day,i will be one of those guys with decent equipment too'',it kept me motivated to improve my character.
If you dont let people develop their character for pvp,you might aswell remove gear completely.
Why have it for pve,but not pvp?

And no,you got me wrong.
Im not complaining about skill based pvp,i love skill based pvp.
But my point is,pvp in a MMORPG(in a shooter or moba,its completely different),should be about skill,BUT also about the time you spent on gearing up your character.
If i wanted equal pvp where everyone is the same,id play a moba,mmorpg,s are about progress,always have been.

Originally posted by Handoiron:

Another thread about giving you an innate advantage over other people in PvP.

Just keep whining until they waste more time on a useless system and delay real content even further so more people forget AQ3D still exists because there is no real content being released.

If you want your transparent self esteem bump from hurting other people in a virtual environment, there are plenty of other alternatives.

Of course, those alternatives are actually moving towards skill and experience instead of gear advantage so you'll have a harder time getting your newb-kill fix I guess.

Dude,kindly get out of my threads.
All you do is spreading hatred and lies.
Next time im just going to report you since youre not offering neutral and valid critic,but instead always try to slander me for some reason.

-Who said this has anything to do with me having self esteem issues?
-Why do you keep talking about me killing newbs?
-Why do you keep looking down on pvp while its a basic aspect of mmo,s?
-Why do you keep talking about pvp at all when you clearly have no pvp experience whatsoever?

Its very clear already that you hate pvp.
Thats fine,youre free to do so.
But dont let that hatred out on other people who try to improve a game,im not your personal therapist.

Youre acting just as toxic as many of those pvp guys youre looking down upon so much.
If you disagree with my suggestion,thats fine,go on.
But stop with the personal attacks.

[Handoiron]

Originally posted by Sir Seal The Slippery:

-Who said this has anything to do with me having self esteem issues?

That's the entire purpose of PvP.

Considering the only difference between PvP and PvE is that you're trying to destroy another person, you're essentially just trying to prove you're better than them.

Someone with good self esteem doesn't need to prove they're better than someone.

Someone with even basic empathy realizes every time they get their high emotional fix for "winning" in PvP it's at the expense of another real person being given a low emotional hit.

These things together show that yes, PvP is for people with self esteem issues.

You have repeatedly shown you are heavily focused on PvP, even in a game that is obviously designed and made completely for PvE.

There is an obvious conclusion to be reached from these facts.

Originally posted by Sir Seal The Slippery:

-Why do you keep talking about me killing newbs?

Because that's what you're asking for in demanding an advantage from gear in PvP.

Gaining gear for PvP takes time.

People new to PvP and the game overall obviously haven't had time to get all the gear.

Your desire to have an advantage based on gear in PvP means that you want an advantage over newer players.

Obviously, you want to be able to easily "kill newbs".

Originally posted by Sir Seal The Slippery:

-Why do you keep looking down on pvp while its a basic aspect of mmo,s?

It's not actually.

In almost every MMO with PvP, it's almost an entire second game attached to the PvE game.

There are many successful MMOs with almost or entirely no PvP in them.

How many successful MMOs do you know of with no PvE??

Originally posted by Sir Seal The Slippery:

-Why do you keep talking about pvp at all when you clearly have no pvp experience whatsoever?

I have plenty of PvP experience.

Many games with decent PvE sides need to force people to play their PvP aspects in order to accomplish PvE goals.

This is because they have a PvP side to take advantage of people with low self esteem looking for their PvP fix in order to gain a bit more revenue and need to feed the PvPers with people who don't want to PvP.

I spent plenty of time playing PvP in various games, mostly because to the small benefits to the PvE side of the games that their developers had to give to get more people to play their PvP.

It didn't take long to figure out that PvP is 90% seeking an overwhelming advantage and 10% rock-paper-scissors where this setup beats that other setup but is beaten by a different setup.

Once that fact becomes obvious, it's simple to realize the entire basic point of PvP is to make yourself feel good by making others feel bad.

I know, it should be pretty obvious simply by the name of it: player VERSUS player.

The entire game mode is about one side winning at the expense of the other side instead of how in PvE every player wins or loses together and not at the expense of other players.

[Blacrow]

I've played MMORPGs my whole life, and heavy grind gear based PVP is always what broke them for me, but thankfully games are getting better as the years go by and now we have PVP systems that go towards skill and not just numbers.

Yes, progression is a huge part of the RPG experience, as a game developer myself i understand that, but, first of all, gear based progression isn't the only kind of progression you can have in an RPG, learning how to fight, improving your reflexes and ability to read the opponent moves and react accordingly is also progression, from a skill point of view, and it also feels very rewarding, even more rewarding than just wearing a piece of armor, that requires no skill as a player. And second, as i mentioned before, gear progression should be based on freedom of building your character on different parameters, when it comes to just attack and defense it doesn't feel as good.

WoW has a great PVP experience because of it's scale, not because of it's combat system, which is pretty outdated by now and not a lot of fun when compared to recent multiplayer games. The standard MMORPG combat system and gear progression was mostly because of technology issues by the time the classic MMORPGs were developed, but we don't have those issues anymore, and the genre should overcome that and present us with something new, fresh and more fun.

[Blacrow]

Personally i love the combat system of AQ3D, i think it's fresh, it's simple, and i love how every class got it's little quirk, and you have to be smart on how you cycle through your few skills, in contrast to most MMORPGs where you have like 20 skills and spam a lot of stuff, so i would be very disappointed if this fun combat system is ruined by losing to someone less skilled with better gear.

That could be fixed by setting a reasonable ceiling when it comes to the top tier gear of the games, but considering how this game is already VERY HEAVY GRINDING, it would be really tiresome to get a good enough gear to have fun in pvp.

In other words, you would have to spend a lot of time not having fun in order to be able to have fun, and that's not good game design.

[Sir Seal The Slippery]

Originally posted by Handoiron:

Originally posted by Sir Seal The Slippery:

-Who said this has anything to do with me having self esteem issues?

That's the entire purpose of PvP.

You could say this about pretty much every sport/competitive activity then.
There are also people who have fun even though they lost.
They are thankful for being able to learn from each other and congratulate the winner.
In short,good sportsmanship.
You can have a healthy self esteem and still enjoy going beyond your limits via a competitive activity.
Thats just like saying,,people who refuse to do pvp,are just bad players or scared to lose''.
This statement is just as wrong,since we cant generalize people like that.

Originally posted by Handoiron:

Originally posted by Sir Seal The Slippery:

-Why do you keep talking about me killing newbs?

Because that's what you're asking for in demanding an advantage from gear in PvP.

Thats like saying people who want to go fishing,enjoy killing animals.
What i want,is feeling rewarded for my,,work'',i want that the gear i worked for,actually pays off in the end.
Doesnt really matter who im using it against,could be against another vet aswell.
Fighting undergeared newbs,would be a side effect of this,but a good matchmaking system,wouldnt even let you fight newbies in the first place,as it should be.
Im actually already avoiding easy targets in pvp right now,i only challenge people who reached max lvl and have similiar stats.
Its about being motivated to get better gear,thats all.
I want to be able to take on stronger players with it,not wreck newbies.

Originally posted by Handoiron:

Originally posted by Sir Seal The Slippery:

-Why do you keep looking down on pvp while its a basic aspect of mmo,s?

It's not actually.

In almost every MMO with PvP, it's almost an entire second game attached to the PvE game.

There are many successful MMOs with almost or entirely no PvP in them.

How many successful MMOs do you know of with no PvE??
want to PvP.

You can do pve without the need for other people to be around,but you cant do pvp without other people involved.
Therefore,pve is easier to find.
Pve has also been around for....well,it was always there,it has a tradition,you could say.
And yea,pvp IS a core aspect of mmo,s.
Pretty much every mmo has at least SOME kind of pvp,even if its only duelling between friends,its common,its a basic thing to have.
Some of the most popular mmo,s around,have pvp and in the case of gw2 for example,pvp is REALLY important,even if the story is the core of the game.
The same can be said about ESO,also a pve focused game.
I could also ask you this:How many succesful mmo,s do you know,that dont include any kind of pvp at all?

Originally posted by Handoiron:

Originally posted by Sir Seal The Slippery:

-Why do you keep talking about pvp at all when you clearly have no pvp experience whatsoever?

I have plenty of PvP experience.

Alright,let me rephrase this question then.
How much pvp experience do you actually have in THIS game,since youre not forced to do pvp at all.
Its kinda important,because aq3d is the game we are talking about here and making suggestions for.
I believe that you have some pvp experience in other games,your problem with pvp must come from somewhere afterall.


Little side question:
Even if there are people who do pvp because they want to prove themself,why is this a bad thing?
Competition isnt only fun,it also encourages us to be better than we currently are,and im not only talking about gaming here,but life in general.
Youre making it sound like the urge to prove yourself and be proud of your skills,is a bad thing.
Its not like pvp always ends with 1 happy,and 1 sad/angry person.
When im duelling at yulgars,im often very thankful for those duels,even those i lost,because im learning new stuff there.
One of the things i learned about because of this,was frame advantage.
I also treat my opponents with respect,no matter the outcome of the fight.
Pvp can always be a,,win-win''situation,if you only want it to be one.
You can encounter toxic people in pvp who trashtalk you for winning,but also for losing.
But you can encounter those people in pve aswell(ever had the pleasure of meeting those elitists in wow raids?what about ESO?)

[Sir Seal The Slippery]

Originally posted by Blacrow:

I've played MMORPGs my whole life, and heavy grind gear based PVP is always what broke them for me, but thankfully games are getting better as the years go by and now we have PVP systems that go towards skill and not just numbers.

Yes, progression is a huge part of the RPG experience, as a game developer myself i understand that, but, first of all, gear based progression isn't the only kind of progression you can have in an RPG, learning how to fight, improving your reflexes and ability to read the opponent moves and react accordingly is also progression, from a skill point of view, and it also feels very rewarding, even more rewarding than just wearing a piece of armor, that requires no skill as a player. And second, as i mentioned before, gear progression should be based on freedom of building your character on different parameters, when it comes to just attack and defense it doesn't feel as good.

WoW has a great PVP experience because of it's scale, not because of it's combat system, which is pretty outdated by now and not a lot of fun when compared to recent multiplayer games. The standard MMORPG combat system and gear progression was mostly because of technology issues by the time the classic MMORPGs were developed, but we don't have those issues anymore, and the genre should overcome that and present us with something new, fresh and more fun.

Originally posted by Blacrow:

Personally i love the combat system of AQ3D, i think it's fresh, it's simple, and i love how every class got it's little quirk, and you have to be smart on how you cycle through your few skills, in contrast to most MMORPGs where you have like 20 skills and spam a lot of stuff, so i would be very disappointed if this fun combat system is ruined by losing to someone less skilled with better gear.

That could be fixed by setting a reasonable ceiling when it comes to the top tier gear of the games, but considering how this game is already VERY HEAVY GRINDING, it would be really tiresome to get a good enough gear to have fun in pvp.

In other words, you would have to spend a lot of time not having fun in order to be able to have fun, and that's not good game design.

I can agree with most of the things you wrote and understand where youre comming from.
However,i wouldnt say that one preferance,is automatically superior to the other one.
As i see it,making your character stronger,is,,mmorpg tradition''that existed long before scaling got so popular.
Knowing myself,i wouldnt bother to collect gear in a game where i wont need it for pvp in any way,its all about the motivation and for me,its part of the fun.
Someone else might see it only as,,boring and repetive grind''.
Agree to disagree i guess.