Remove keys and find other things to do with Dragon Crystals

[Phrasmotic]

It really isn't going to help your company make money when half of your playerbase takes a day off to refill keys - eventually becoming tired of waiting and bored of the game. Please remove keys at some point - there are plenty of other things you can do with dragon crystals. Here's a few ideas I can think of:

Cosmetic Stone - costs 200 Dragon Crystals. Use a cosmetic stone to bind a piece of armour to be used as a cosmetic piece. It loses its stats, but can be used in your wardrobe.
Wardrobe - Purchasing a Guardian upgrade gives you access to a wardrobe, allowing you to use cosmetic stones to update your look whilst keeping your stats
Mounts - self explanatory. They can cost like, 1500 dragon coins each.
Cosmetic Armour - gear that grants no stats, but can be used with the wardrobe.

There ya go Artix, just a few ideas that are guaranteed to make you a lot more money than preventing people from, ya know, actually playing the game.

[Chronos Notashi]

Cosmetic Stone; wardrobe; cosmetic armor - none of those are needed (excluding body armor, as it's already primarily cosmetic). As pointed out in one of their Design Notes (which is on the main site, just to make things clear), they're already working on "costume equip slots" (and are planning to release them along with the first set of custom weapons from the Kickstarter), which will likely either 1) let us equip weapons or armor as cosmetic items (i.e. something similar to what Terraria uses for armor and accessories: negates any stats those items give while in vanity slots, but uses their appearance instead of the main equipment), or 2) let us use items specifically meant for those slots.

As for mounts, they might be possible, but unlikely due to the limitations of mobile devices. Mounts will most likely be used in the form of transformations (such as the Elite Guardian mount), so they might show up sometime down the road.

Also, the limited keys don't really bother me. I play other games as well, so if I run out of keys, that just means I'm done with dungeons for the day, and I can focus on something else (or grinding gold, since at level 15, that's pretty much the only thing you can do for now once you have a full level 15 set) while dungeon keys regenerate. Just be thankful there's a way to get more keys when you run out and are too impatient to wait. I've played a couple F2P MMORPGs where even regular dungeons (or special instances that require a daily quest to enter) have limited entries, and the only way to get more is to wait for them to regenerate (some dungeon entries not regenerating until the next 24-hour time frame. Have fun farming certain benefits with THAT limitation).

[Naga]

As Chronos Notashi said in his reply, the team already working on the cosmetic function and will be added in-game once it's ready. I have no idea how it's gonna work but hopefully it will be like what Chronos said.

As for the keys regeneration, I don't think it's a problem, at least for me. Just like what Chronos said, as a level 15 you don't really need to spend a lot of keys unless you want to farm gold. I also agree with Chronos about "if I run out of keys, that just means I'm done with dungeons for the day, and I can focus on something else".

Lastly for the mounts, Guardian already have their own "mount" but it's called as transformation instead so I don't know if the team will add another mount in-game, but it could be interesting if they do.

[Phrasmotic]

Originally posted by Chronos Notashi:

Cosmetic Stone; wardrobe; cosmetic armor - none of those are needed (excluding body armor, as it's already primarily cosmetic). As pointed out in one of their Design Notes (which is on the main site, just to make things clear), they're already working on "costume equip slots" (and are planning to release them along with the first set of custom weapons from the Kickstarter), which will likely either 1) let us equip weapons or armor as cosmetic items (i.e. something similar to what Terraria uses for armor and accessories: negates any stats those items give while in vanity slots, but uses their appearance instead of the main equipment), or 2) let us use items specifically meant for those slots.

As for mounts, they might be possible, but unlikely due to the limitations of mobile devices. Mounts will most likely be used in the form of transformations (such as the Elite Guardian mount), so they might show up sometime down the road.

Also, the limited keys don't really bother me. I play other games as well, so if I run out of keys, that just means I'm done with dungeons for the day, and I can focus on something else (or grinding gold, since at level 15, that's pretty much the only thing you can do for now once you have a full level 15 set) while dungeon keys regenerate. Just be thankful there's a way to get more keys when you run out and are too impatient to wait. I've played a couple F2P MMORPGs where even regular dungeons (or special instances that require a daily quest to enter) have limited entries, and the only way to get more is to wait for them to regenerate (some dungeon entries not regenerating until the next 24-hour time frame. Have fun farming certain benefits with THAT limitation).

I genuinely don't understand how people can defend this practice, can you explain to me why it's ok? This is an MMO, there are going to be people who play for hours a day, or play it as their only game and, the longer they play, the more they spend.

If they didn't have to wait for keys and had other things to spend dragon crystals on it would mean they could play for longer, therefore they would spend more money to fund the game, therefore this would speed up development time and improve the game for everyone.

There's also the issue of not being able to choose your party, or having the option to go in solo when you just need drops. People are wasting keys by not being able to get the drops they need.

Please explain to me how having this key system is ok or helps the game?


Edit: Guild wars 2 is free to play, with an optional one-time upgrade (similar to buying a guardian upgrade). It has cosmetic and convenience items in its store only and does not prevent people from playing the game. It's a payment model that's been proven time and time again - this is the model that Artix Entertainment should adopt as well. If people are playing the game, they're spending money. If they can't play, they aren't. It's that simple.

[Chronos Notashi]

Okay, you have CLEARLY forgotten that we are still in Open Beta. And even if that wasn't the case, I don't recall AdventureQuest Worlds having a working party system until some time after it went out of Beta. So if that's the main issue, you'll just have to wait until they finish developing AQ3D's party system and implement it on all versions of the game.

In any case, keys/limited dungeon runs is nothing new. A bunch of other F2P MMORPGs have it as well, except in most cases you have no way to bypass these limitations and have no choice but to wait for runs to reset before you can go again. Notable examples include: Dragon Nest (nests, raids, and special dungeons can only be done a limited number of times per WEEK, only reseting once every Saturday), Aura Kingdom (regular dungeons can only be done a maximum number of times (typically 1-3 times), and you only get one new run every so many hours), etc. It's becoming a common practice in today's F2P MMO realm, and has been a common practice among mobile games as well. AQ3D is just one of the few F2P MMORPGs that I know of that lets you buy additional keys to bypass the limit.

That being said, I do feel there's a reason for key/limited run systems. For some MMOs, it's usually to try to encourage players to spend money on their cash shop for alternative means of gaining power. With AQ3D, on the other hand, it's meant to be played in bursts (such as if you're using a mobile device to play away from home, like during a lunch break), so the keys can ensure that you know when to stop and take a break from dungeons. Of course, the less patient ones can buy more keys if they want to (not really much point right now, though, since you can easily get enough mats and gold for a full level 15 set before you burn through all 20 keys). This isn't required though, and there WILL be more uses for dragon crystals as the game grows (most of them likely to be more cosmetic in nature, such as the Black Knight Cape), so if you don't want to spend crystals right now, you can save them for something later on down the road.



As for your Guild Wars II example, Guild Wars 2 started as a B2P game, and remained that way until mid 2015 (about three years after its official release), so it's hard to compare Guild Wars 2 to AQ3D when the former required you to pay to play the game (even if it was only once) and the latter, while originally requiring prior payment in one of AE's other games to play between Alpha and Closed Beta, can be played for free to begin with. As for the one-time subscription fee and your comparing it to Guardian, that would be true...assuming it was the same thing. Having played DragonFable and AdventureQuest Worlds (and other AE games), one thing has always been true with AE's games: even if you don't upgrade your account, you can still play through the full story AND reach every level cap, all without being very restricted as to where you can go/what you can get and when (i.e. regardless of whether or not you're a Dragonlord, you STILL have to be at least level 30 to unlock the Technomancer class in DragonFable, and most non-base classes will typically require you to simply complete a quest, reach a certain point in the main story, or acquire an item to unlock them). The only thing you'll be locked out of outside of some equipment is upgrade-only side quests/side stories that aren't tied to the main questlines (and in the case of AE's single-player games, some unlockable classes only having limited access to their skills, but some of these classes do just fine with the left-side skills (with DragonFable's Paladin class being an exception, but even with the full skill set, it's only really useful against Undead or light-weak enemies, with much less use outside of that), and the base classes are good enough that you could go through the entire game with just them if you distribute skill points properly).

P2P/B2P games that go F2P with subscriptions, on the other hand, will typically shoehorn in restrictions that will force you to buy a subscription if you want to continue enjoying what the game has to offer. This can include locking you out of certain places that are required for the main questline (such as expansions that continue where the base game leaves off), limiting some of your potential character options (such as limited inventory space with no other way to expand it, certain chat restrictions, level requirements for certain privileges that upgraded accounts have immediate access to, etc), or even hard-capping your level to a certain point, regardless of the current overall level cap, until you upgrade your account. If you don't particularly care about these, then you can enjoy the base game without worry. But a lot of the time, some F2P games with subscription-based models tend to be VERY limited in what you can do with a non-upgraded account. AE's games are rarely like this (with the exception of inventory space, but even with a upgraded account, you're still going to have to buy inventory expansions, as it's not included with the upgrade unless you put all of your cash currency towards it). While you won't be able to explore the entirety of their games without an upgraded account, you're not restricted to just the base games, being able to play through the entirety of the main storylines (and even most side content), save for maybe one or two quests (though most of these will have an alternative/option to skip certain battles if you don't have an upgraded account), without having to spend any money (though getting secondary currency through Ballyhoo can help, even if it's only occasionally and only a small amount. Kinda wondering if they'll add her services (or at least have a similar system) for AQ3D, but that will depend on whether or not mobile devices will be able to handle them).

[Phrasmotic]

Originally posted by Chronos Notashi:

Okay, you have CLEARLY forgotten that we are still in Open Beta. And even if that wasn't the case, I don't recall AdventureQuest Worlds having a working party system until some time after it went out of Beta. So if that's the main issue, you'll just have to wait until they finish developing AQ3D's party system and implement it on all versions of the game.

In any case, keys/limited dungeon runs is nothing new. A bunch of other F2P MMORPGs have it as well, except in most cases you have no way to bypass these limitations and have no choice but to wait for runs to reset before you can go again. Notable examples include: Dragon Nest (nests, raids, and special dungeons can only be done a limited number of times per WEEK, only reseting once every Saturday), Aura Kingdom (regular dungeons can only be done a maximum number of times (typically 1-3 times), and you only get one new run every so many hours), etc. It's becoming a common practice in today's F2P MMO realm, and has been a common practice among mobile games as well. AQ3D is just one of the few F2P MMORPGs that I know of that lets you buy additional keys to bypass the limit.

That being said, I do feel there's a reason for key/limited run systems. For some MMOs, it's usually to try to encourage players to spend money on their cash shop for alternative means of gaining power. With AQ3D, on the other hand, it's meant to be played in bursts (such as if you're using a mobile device to play away from home, like during a lunch break), so the keys can ensure that you know when to stop and take a break from dungeons. Of course, the less patient ones can buy more keys if they want to (not really much point right now, though, since you can easily get enough mats and gold for a full level 15 set before you burn through all 20 keys). This isn't required though, and there WILL be more uses for dragon crystals as the game grows (most of them likely to be more cosmetic in nature, such as the Black Knight Cape), so if you don't want to spend crystals right now, you can save them for something later on down the road.



As for your Guild Wars II example, Guild Wars 2 started as a B2P game, and remained that way until mid 2015 (about three years after its official release), so it's hard to compare Guild Wars 2 to AQ3D when the former required you to pay to play the game (even if it was only once) and the latter, while originally requiring prior payment in one of AE's other games to play between Alpha and Closed Beta, can be played for free to begin with. As for the one-time subscription fee and your comparing it to Guardian, that would be true...assuming it was the same thing. Having played DragonFable and AdventureQuest Worlds (and other AE games), one thing has always been true with AE's games: even if you don't upgrade your account, you can still play through the full story AND reach every level cap, all without being very restricted as to where you can go/what you can get and when (i.e. regardless of whether or not you're a Dragonlord, you STILL have to be at least level 30 to unlock the Technomancer class in DragonFable, and most non-base classes will typically require you to simply complete a quest, reach a certain point in the main story, or acquire an item to unlock them). The only thing you'll be locked out of outside of some equipment is upgrade-only side quests/side stories that aren't tied to the main questlines (and in the case of AE's single-player games, some unlockable classes only having limited access to their skills, but some of these classes do just fine with the left-side skills (with DragonFable's Paladin class being an exception, but even with the full skill set, it's only really useful against Undead or light-weak enemies, with much less use outside of that), and the base classes are good enough that you could go through the entire game with just them if you distribute skill points properly).

P2P/B2P games that go F2P with subscriptions, on the other hand, will typically shoehorn in restrictions that will force you to buy a subscription if you want to continue enjoying what the game has to offer. This can include locking you out of certain places that are required for the main questline (such as expansions that continue where the base game leaves off), limiting some of your potential character options (such as limited inventory space with no other way to expand it, certain chat restrictions, level requirements for certain privileges that upgraded accounts have immediate access to, etc), or even hard-capping your level to a certain point, regardless of the current overall level cap, until you upgrade your account. If you don't particularly care about these, then you can enjoy the base game without worry. But a lot of the time, some F2P games with subscription-based models tend to be VERY limited in what you can do with a non-upgraded account. AE's games are rarely like this (with the exception of inventory space, but even with a upgraded account, you're still going to have to buy inventory expansions, as it's not included with the upgrade unless you put all of your cash currency towards it). While you won't be able to explore the entirety of their games without an upgraded account, you're not restricted to just the base games, being able to play through the entirety of the main storylines (and even most side content), save for maybe one or two quests (though most of these will have an alternative/option to skip certain battles if you don't have an upgraded account), without having to spend any money (though getting secondary currency through Ballyhoo can help, even if it's only occasionally and only a small amount. Kinda wondering if they'll add her services (or at least have a similar system) for AQ3D, but that will depend on whether or not mobile devices will be able to handle them).

Your examples are Korean MMOs and that's to be expected from that market - they DO have a reputation for being cash-grabby and pay-to-win. This is a western developed game for a western audience - surely you don't want the same here?

Guild Wars story can be fully completed without purchasing the game, the DLC and seasons are additional content that continue the story and introduce new gameplay elements - more of a sequel than part of the base game. The fact that it only went f2p later is irrelvant - the original plan was for the game to be a one-time purchase and the DLC content would be free. Think of it like DLC for Skyrim. The entire F2P game is accessible to everyone - this includes top-end gear needed to be competetive in PvP and raids. Nothing is keeping free players from participating in that content. In that regard, free players get even more than what they would get on any AQ game. I wasn;t aware those games even had a singular narrative and if they do, there are MANY storylines that are locked behind a paywall.

20 dungeon keys can be gone in the space of an hour providing you have a decent group, or you're running through lower level dungeons. Are you saying that being able to play through the game for only an hour a day is fair or acceptable? The fact that other games do it doesn't make it right - the same criticisms are levied at those games as well. This is a mobile game, but it's also a PC game and needs to be developed with that audience in mind as well. That kind of forced monetisation generally isn't acceptable for pc gamers.

Seriously, why are so many people in this community so anti-consumer? What do you gain from having less? What do Artix Entertainment gain from minimising the amount of time people can play? At the very least, it would make sense to remove the key limit for Guardians only - I've already payed for a Guardian account, why should my playtime still be limited?

[Chronos Notashi]

So ultimately, your argument is boiling down to "Guild Wars II is a large-budget video game that originally started as a B2P game with unlimited dungeon runs, so a lower-budget game meant for PC + Mobile compatibilty should be the same from the get-go, and anyone else's arguments stating otherwise are anti-consumer." Thanks for making that clear to me. Good to know that this argument has been COMPLETELY worth my time, knowing that your high-budget stance is not going to change no matter what. Despite that, I will entertain you just one more time on the matter.

And yes, the examples I used are Korean MMOs (though technically, Aura Kingdom started in Taiwan, iirc). But it's mostly because the majority of non-indie American MMOs that DON'T immediately fall apart within the first year or two are either console-exclusive, P2P/B2P, or were originally P2P/B2P and changed to F2P with subscriptions, and developed and managed by multi-million (or multi-billion, which is likely Blizzard's case) gaming corperations. They can afford to keep dungeon runs unlimited, because people (used to) have to pay (whether one time or monthly) just to play the game (in some cases without so much as a free trial until later in the game's lifetime), and they have a big enough budget that even if they went F2P, they can rely solely on subscriptions to keep the game running (all costumes and cosmetics are in those games are additional income that only serve to boost the amount they already receive from subscriptions). The only real exception I know of is Team Fortress 2, but that's because everyone's so obsessed with hats in that game (hence the nickname "Hat Simulator 2") that Valve can make a profit just from those.

AE, on the other hand, is a F2P indie-game developer. They don't have nearly the budget that the developers of MMOs such as Guild Wars II or World of Warcraft have. They even had to do a Kickstarter to fund AQ3D, because they had to cut off funding received from AQW so as to have a large enough budget for a major system overhaul for the latter. This means that they can't rely on Guardian upgrades alone to cover the cost of development, and have to find other ways to build revenue. One of these is the dungeon keys (for the time being, assuming they plan to replace the system later on), and even this isn't a huge issue if you know how to stretch them (even with +100 keys through the Mogloween compensation, I didn't drop very far below 100 before reaching the level 13-15 dungeons, especially since I only started dungeons at the level 7 one, and only used enough keys to get the rare-grade equipment from them, so I don't see where you're going with this unless you're making AQ3D your one and only game).


Here's an idea: if you don't like the key system, give them an alternative that's likely to make just as much money, if not more (BESIDES just more cosmetic options and mounts, because they've ALREADY got cosmetics covered (most of which won't cost crystals) as I pointed out, and transformations (with more planned) are the closest you're going to get for the latter, and they've already got plans to monetize THAT). If you can't do that, I don't know what to tell you.

[Phrasmotic]

Originally posted by Chronos Notashi:

tl;dr

Please stop with the walls of text - I only want to discuss the key system.

-How does it benefit us as players? (it doesn't)
-How does it benefit Artix as a company? People won;t spend money if they can't play.
-Why is this community so anti-consumer? Loyalty to the company is fine, so long as it isn't blind.
-This is a pc game as much as it is a mobile one and should be developed for both audiences.

These are the points I want to discuss and you have addressed none of them. You're defending the key system by stating they are a poor indie developer - I have countered that point by stating that the key system will in fact LOSE them revenue if people can't play as much as they wish. Just to give you an example, I am not spending dragon crystals to craft my gear because I know it will be ready by the time my keys regen. They're losing out. What's your counter-point for that?

I've offered an alternative - make dungeons free for Guardians. There ya go. Revenue. Do you have any better suggestions?

[Chronos Notashi]

Explain this then: if limited dungeon runs REALLY cause revenue loss, then why do F2P MMOs that have limited dungeon runs (including games with pass requirements tied to dungeons), still exist, and appear more often than P2P/B2P MMOs? How is a buisness model that is apparently less effective than the B2P/F2P+subscription model still thriving in today's world, regardless of whether or not it's through PC, browser, or mobile? If you ask me, the answer is about the same as why F2P+subscription is a thing: people who are desperate enough will pay any price for anything that gets them more benefits, more power, or faster means of getting power.

Also, people won't spend money if they can't play? If you honestly believe that human beings that are impatient and desperate won't spend money for the ability to accomplish a goal faster than everyone else, then you are a fool. Seriously, look at just about every MMO in existence, and you'll have proof for this. There are many people in the world who will pay any fee if it means they'll be able to continue playing a game at the pace they want to without restrictions, or simply to continue playing the game at all. This is true for both PC games with limitations on priveleges/dungeons/content and mobile games with micro-transactions, and it's the only reason the P2P model exists in the first place and hasn't completely died out yet (considering you have to constantly pay a monthly subscription fee just to contrinue playing P2P games).

And loyalty to the company? Partially, but most of my view is from experience with other MMO publishers/developers and how they run their games. And one of the things that has been true more often than not is this: dangle a timed/permanent upgrade that gives boosted EXP/gold and/or gives benefits that are difficult/impossible to gain otherwise, and people will bite it (much like there are people who are ALREADY buying XP boosts in AQ3D when the level cap is still fairly low. I don't know why you didn't acknowledge that as well). Again, the reason many F2P models are successful, much like F2P+subscription, is that they offer content/benefits that often can't be achieved through normal gameplay. Even if a base game already has a full story, people will still buy the subscription simply for the expanded universe and/or the subscription-only benefits, and cash players for F2P games will be more than happy to buy anything that gets them to level cap faster/gets them to ultimate geared status sooner. That's just how human nature works, and any company that doesn't capitalize on that weakness in some form (including subscriptions) is ultimately cheating themselves out of revenue.

As for developing the game in a way that works for both pc gamers and mobile gamers, they're already trying to do that (as can be seen to a lesser extent with the heavily-requested PC interface and key bindings). The problem is: not every PC gamer is the same, and not every PC MMO uses the same model/content layout, especially when it comes to dungeon drops. For one, they COULD gives Guardians unlimited keys or remove keys entirely. But considering every dungeon miniboss/boss has a 100% chance of dropping the green/blue materials required for crafting, people would be able to craft everything far easier and faster than they already can, and all that will happen would be that Guardians/everyone would get bored much quicker at end-game than they are right now. In the case of the latter (removing keys entirely), they would likely have to reduce drops rates to compensate for the fact that everyone would be able to run dungeons as much as they want. And when you consider that one of the most frustrating aspects of Pre-Beta was the low drop rate of even white materials from regular mobs and even lower drop rates for higher-grade materials from elite mobs (who had a 100% chance to spawn back then), one can only imagine the frustration when some unlucky guy goes through ~10-15 dungeon runs in a row and STILL doesn't get the boss material he desperately needs to craft better gear, much less any gear that can drop from the boss that would make those runs worth something. So we get 100% drop rates on crafting materials from dungeon bosses and elite mobs, but the trade-off is that you can only enter dungeons so many times, and elite mobs aren't a guaranteed spawn.

tl;dr (since you clearly need one): Regardless of whether or not keys remain the way they are, the fact remains that there are people who will spend money to continue running dungeons and/or progress to end game while taking no/minimal breaks, and this is only proven even more by the fact that there are people buying XP boosters (a common cash benefit in F2P MMOs) this early in the game's lifetime. Take away keys (even if partially, in the case of Guardians having unlimited keys) without a proper revenue replacement or some way to balance out the loss of the limitation, and you take away a potential source of revenue whose absence may or may not end up negatively affecting the game's budget in the long run.

[Phrasmotic]

Originally posted by Chronos Notashi:

Snip

The mark of a man who understands what he is saying is that he can remain concise.

Those games have a lot of revenue because they have high visibilility and a large number of players. On mobile games, the model makes sense since people rarely play the game on a long term basis as in an MMO. They have high turnover, many impulse buyers, but rarely many who play long term. This game has a smaller community and, eventually, will require a larger time investement, so the model won't work here.

Arguing that having no keys would make the game 'too easy' is an anti-consumer approach that benefits nobody. If it's too easy, they could make the dungeons harder or just reduce the drop rates. I'm not after that epic loot, I just want to play the game.

[C-Boy]

I agree with Phrasmotic keys are a stupid system adopted from korean MMO's and have no place in a western one like AQ3D, and this goes for Stamina/Crystal/Energy that you would find in korean MMOs too.

As of now AQ3D shouldnt even be out if you ask me yeah its an open beta but I mean dam atleast have the basic stuff already done for MMOs like party systems, trading, auction house, etc. I mean that junk is boiler plate in todays MMO and for AE to be so slow with getting this content is just bad on their part and making people lose interest in the game.

What they should have done was released this game in like 2017 when they had more basic features done already...they are thinking with their AQW mindset where they can put out 1 dam fix/patch a week and hope that can satisfy the 3D MMO gamers, lol no way we arent flash game players, our standards are way more high than that.

[Chronos Notashi]

I'll give you a few of those points P1, but to be fair, AQW didn't have a party system at launch iirc, and it doesn't have a trading/auction system at all, despite it being both a Western MMO and having been out since 2010. Trading systems typically tend to affect the base code, as they ultimately govern what can and can't be traded between players and how, meaning they'd have to be planned and coded early, if at all (who knows. They might already have a bit of code in the game to support trading, but are making sure the system is working for all platforms before they add it in for larger-scale testing). Plus, many games with auction/market systems tend to be vulnerable to having heavily-inflated economies due to bots, scams, and gold buyers, and trading systems can also be vulnerable to scams unless measures are added in to reduce the likelihood. We're honestly much more likely to get the party system first, assuming there will be a trading/auction system at all. Really, I'd honestly prefer that they finish and release some of the more important functions (such as the party system and more PC functions) first, and implement a trading system if there's enough time and room for it.

[Wolfhound]

Originally posted by BoxingBud:

Man I'm glad I ducked out of this game. I could smell the energy meter system.

nice necro...keys are no longer in the game havnt been for quite awhile lol