Is it better to start bureaucrats or clegry

[XxSNIPER98]

I wanna play as an unciv with low literacy, like china would it be better to use my nf on breau or clergy? HOD no mods

[Lembley42]

Clergymen first.
Bureaucrats require literacy to really grow, so with very low its kinda wasted.

You can go up to 4% Clergy (which is the limit) - this won't give you more Research points, but will increase literacy which in turns massively boosts research (among other useful things).

[The Void Boy]

Originally posted by Lembley42:

Clergymen first.
Bureaucrats require literacy to really grow, so with very low its kinda wasted.

You can go up to 4% Clergy (which is the limit) - this won't give you more Research points, but will increase literacy which in turns massively boosts research (among other useful things).

but at the same time, you need bureaucratic efficiency in order to effectively encourage clergymen. Bureaucrats are limited because only pops of a nations primary or accepted culture can become bureaucrats. Bureaucrats also mean more money. It will still take forever for your literacy rate to go up, so going for clergy first will make the whole process take longer.

But you are correct, you should do clergy first. When trying to westernize you should prioritize research points over everything else. You were right, just not at all for the reasons you stated.

[Lembley42]

Bureaucrats earn money by you paying them, just like Clergy so its not exactly a good reason I feel like.

For other countries I'd also agree that after reaching the 2% clergy limit (which is for other fast), to get some bureaucrats up. But China starts with such a low literacy that its not worthwhile I think.

[The Void Boy]

Originally posted by Lembley42:

Bureaucrats earn money by you paying them, just like Clergy so its not exactly a good reason I feel like.

For other countries I'd also agree that after reaching the 2% clergy limit (which is for other fast), to get some bureaucrats up. But China starts with such a low literacy that its not worthwhile I think.

No they make you money, if admin efficiency is 60% in a region then you're only getting 60% of the tax and tariffs your supposed to from that region. Also admin efficiency boosts the rate at which pops upgrade or change what kind of pops they are.

[Lembley42]

Overall admin effienciency has an direct impact on tarrifs, but Ive never seem them having any impact on taxiation (and certainly not on a local level). Where do you get this from?

And yes, I know that Bureaucrats boost the amount of POPs changing (not really the speed, but I guess this is what you meant)

[The Void Boy]

Originally posted by Lembley42:

Overall admin effienciency has an direct impact on tarrifs, but Ive never seem them having any impact on taxiation (and certainly not on a local level). Where do you get this from?

And yes, I know that Bureaucrats boost the amount of POPs changing (not really the speed, but I guess this is what you meant)

It's a lot more than just tariffs though. Maybe it's just because I haven't played vanilla in a while

[Lembley42]

Thats nothing you should be able to change in a mod.
I'm pretty positive that bureuacrats are for Tarrifs (nationwide) + Conversion (Local) + Crime Rate (Local).

[The Void Boy]

I double checked Reddit and the wiki. Admin efficiency affects tax, tariffs, and pop needs nationwide, and they affect pop promotion, and crime locally.

[XxSNIPER98]

lol you guys are legends
bad news tho; my china campaign was stomped :(
idk how to westernize before 1870 lmao

[Lembley42]

I trust neither that much really :P But I'll have a check on taxiation eventually, the rest, sure.

[what am i doing]

Bureaucrats until you're at a high admin efficiency, then Clergymen.

Also don't play China directly, play them and release and play as Guangdong, it's much easier and faster to westernize and it gets free CBs to take the rest of China, although as they don't accept North Han only the southern parts will be possible to convert to civilized. This can sort of be worked around by taking the high pop northern states from the Qing before you westernize. Even just the southern half of China when westernized early by Guangdong is very powerful.

[XxSNIPER98]

Originally posted by 1989年天安門廣場大屠殺:

Bureaucrats until you're at a high admin efficiency, then Clergymen.

Also don't play China directly, play them and release and play as Guangdong, it's much easier and faster to westernize and it gets free CBs to take the rest of China, although as they don't accept North Han only the southern parts will be possible to convert to civilized. This can sort of be worked around by taking the high pop northern states from the Qing before you westernize. Even just the southern half of China when westernized early by Guangdong is very powerful.

You cannot release Guangdong from china in HOD, you need to fight for your freedom

[what am i doing]

Originally posted by spooky cat:

You cannot release Guangdong from china in HOD, you need to fight for your freedom

Oh, you're playing vanilla? Just use vanilla's retarded "research points from conquering" mechanic to have a westernized China in 1850 after you blob through Indochina.

[Hat8]

Bureaucrats are more important since you want an efficient tax system that can bring in the revenues. Literacy is important but you need money to pay the clergy.