Flip a blueprint?

[FM Helldiver Radio]

Is there a way to flip a blueprint?

[The Chaotic Coder]

In the vanilla game, unfortunately no.

https://mods.factorio.com/mod/blueprint_flip_and_turn

This mod will allow you to flip or rotate blueprints.

Be careful, though, because some machines (oil refineries, chem plants for example) have in/out in specific places, so it'll break if you mirror it.

Also, using mods will disable steam achievements.

[The_Mell]

No, it can only be rotated because there are buildings which can not be flipped.
Example refinery:
It has 3 different outputs and flipping it would mean to change order of of these and this then would cause trouble if would rotate it back which developers seem to avoid by this design decision.

However there are mods and i recently red about (at least) one that makes flipping possible.
Use search on main forum and you may find it - or maybe someone else comes by who knows its name.

*edit*
D'oh! Ninja'd...

[Warlord]

Originally posted by The_Mell:

No, it can only be rotated because there are buildings which can not be flipped.
Example refinery:
It has 3 different outputs and flipping it would mean to change order of of these and this then would cause trouble if would rotate it back which developers seem to avoid by this design decision.

To me, this is one hell of a frustrating argument to make for why we can't flip blueprints. It's protectionism against people using this without thinking of the consequences of flipping a refinery or chemical plant. Only in some cases where you hook up the output of one chemical-plant/refinery to the input of another is this ever an issue.

And if this wasn't after the frustrating change to prevent fluid mixing by locking down pipes once a machine is hooked up (before any fluid enters the pipe), then the game would even let you flip a blueprint and lay down pipes wrong and it would be your own fault for not doing pipes right.

Edit: Yes yes, mods. That's another thing I take issue with, is that some fantastic features that should be in the base game are left out because: "just get a mod!"

[Killcreek2]

Originally posted by Warlord:

To me, this is one hell of a frustrating argument to make for why we can't flip blueprints. It's protectionism against people using this without thinking of the consequences of flipping a refinery or chemical plant. Only in some cases where you hook up the output of one chemical-plant/refinery to the input of another is this ever an issue.

Well, not really. This issue is more widespread than just liquid processing: It also occurs for mirrored rail blueprints, and for belt-inserter setups too ~ Some examples.[i.imgur.com]

I understand why the devs have not (yet) added BP mirroring into vanilla, though it would be nice to have if all (or most) of the problems can be solved neatly.

[Warlord]

Originally posted by Killcreek2:

Well, not really. This issue is more widespread than just liquid processing: It also occurs for mirrored rail blueprints, and for belt-inserter setups too ~ Some examples.[i.imgur.com]

I understand why the devs have not (yet) added BP mirroring into vanilla, though it would be nice to have if all (or most) of the problems can be solved neatly.

To me, both of those mirros are working as intended. It doesn't cause an issue where the mirrored blueprint wouldn't work at all, just causes possibly un-intended consequences.

It's not up to the game to fix YOUR problem when you do something. It's like saying the game shouldn't allow you to request the wrong items with a requester chest if it's only inserting into one machine.

Anyway, for the few times I really wanted a flipped blueprint, it's in cases where it wouldn't cause an issue, or could be fixed within a quicker change than it would to completely remake the blueprint myself, but mirrored.

Edit: Anyway, I guess I'm just annoyed at the liquid changes. It's the game trying to fix people's mistakes for them, and this is causing the devs to remove functionality or extra features because of it.

[Overeagerdragon]

Originally posted by Warlord:

Originally posted by The_Mell:

No, it can only be rotated because there are buildings which can not be flipped.
Example refinery:
It has 3 different outputs and flipping it would mean to change order of of these and this then would cause trouble if would rotate it back which developers seem to avoid by this design decision.

To me, this is one hell of a frustrating argument to make for why we can't flip blueprints. It's protectionism against people using this without thinking of the consequences of flipping a refinery or chemical plant. Only in some cases where you hook up the output of one chemical-plant/refinery to the input of another is this ever an issue.

And if this wasn't after the frustrating change to prevent fluid mixing by locking down pipes once a machine is hooked up (before any fluid enters the pipe), then the game would even let you flip a blueprint and lay down pipes wrong and it would be your own fault for not doing pipes right.

Edit: Yes yes, mods. That's another thing I take issue with, is some fantastic features that should be in the base game are explained away as just "get a mod!"

It's an opinion....
Likewise the devs have touched upon the question of certain mods being so good they should be standard features in the game as being conscious design decisions in favour of the puzzle and/or logistic aspects of the game .... in short...not everyone wants an option like being able to flip blueprints because it simplifies the logistical aspect of the game. The idea of making a puzzle whilst being able to use scissors comes to mind....sure the pieces will always fit but once completed the picture isn't the same.
So in the end it's personal preference of wether being able to use those scissors or not....same as having mods in Factorio or not.

And before people start accusing me of fanboyishly defending the devs...I've played with GDIW (A mod that allows you to flip inputs and/or outputs of fluidic-assemblies) which, in combination with the Foreman mod allows you to flip a blueprint any which way you like.....
Well guess what; I'm playing without it.....turns out that because I built my factory in modular pieces I ended up being able to start a game and simply build EVERYTHING from blueprints in ideal ratios. It got boring; there was nothing left to do except improve upon those blueprints and I even started building my base with those blueprints in mind. It wasn't a game anymore; there was no challenge...
So when .16 hit it broke GDIW and Foreman because of the amount of mods I played with. I never reinstalled them and because most of my blueprints got busted after a reinstall I decided NOT to reinstall those 2 mods, no matter how convenient they were and I'm actually enjoying the game more, now, because I did....

[Warlord]

Naw, I wouldn't accuse you of being a dev fanboy. You're certainly making a decent argument one way, and I'm trying to make an argument for why that doesn't apply to me.

I enjoy the puzzle feature of the game as well. It's why I don't (yet) make blueprints for major things that fit within my "rail blocks" design. It gets a bit annoying having to re-work circuit production each time, but I do like trying to figure out how to get even more efficient in the same space.

Edit: It's more like.... I'd rather that the copy-paste feature has a flip option. Waaaaay too many times I have figured out how to do something, but I simply need to mirror it to do the other side (rail loading/unloading is a good example). I already put in the work, but I want it to look similar on the other side and don't want to have to put the work in again for an already solved puzzle.

[Overeagerdragon]

Originally posted by Warlord:

Naw, I wouldn't accuse you of being a dev fanboy. You're certainly making a decent argument one way, and I'm trying to make an argument for why that doesn't apply to me.

I enjoy the puzzle feature of the game as well. It's why I don't (yet) make blueprints for major things that fit within my "rail blocks" design. It gets a bit annoying having to re-work circuit production each time, but I do like trying to figure out how to get even more efficient in the same space.

Edit: It's more like.... I'd rather that the copy-paste feature has a flip option. Waaaaay too many times I have figured out how to do something, but I simply need to mirror it to do the other side (rail loading/unloading is a good example). I already put in the work, but I want it to look similar on the other side and don't want to have to put the work in again for an already solved puzzle.

In which case I would recommend you look into the mods GDIW and Foreman....it will pretty much solve ALL of your problems.

[The Chaotic Coder]

Interesting discussion. I can see some good points being made on both sides.

One thing I haven't heard mentioned is the issue of making it accessible to new players. If BP flipping were part of the base game, I can see a lot of people with only an hour or so of gameplay who can't figure out why their BP'd oil setup wasn't working. The same thing already happens quite a lot when new players don't realize that all 3 oil fractions have to have a consumer to keep the refineries from jamming. Lots of them would ask questions on the forums and have their issue solved, but some might not ask for help for whatever reason and quit playing from frustration.

A lot of the BP's I design are easy to mirror -- for example in my green circuit setup, it's just a matter of pasting the BP rotated 180 degrees, dragging a deconstruction planner over the machine and inserter ghosts (so only the belts remain) and then pasting the BP again turned the correct way to get the machines and inserters back in.

[Warlord]

True enough there, jchardin, but the devs have also added the ability to lock functions of the UI off until you accomplish certain milestones. Buttons on the interface are disabled entirely until you unlock roboports, or they (by default) disable the research queue until you launch a rocket. Blueprint flipping could be locked away behind an advanced feature, but still available to people that desire it.

Don't forget that blueprint use and construction is more of an advanced tool. It's unlikely to be used a lot by first-time players. If you can get all the way to construction robots and still not understand how oil refineries work... and STILL not understand why a blueprint flipped refinery doesn't produce any more? Phew.

Also?

Originally posted by Overeagerdragon:

In which case I would recommend you look into the mods GDIW and Foreman....it will pretty much solve ALL of your problems.

Originally posted by Warlord:

Edit: Yes yes, mods. That's another thing I take issue with, is that some fantastic features that should be in the base game are left out because: "just get a mod!"

;)
I'm kind of proud (it's just the way I am) of the fact that I still enjoy this game without using a single mod. It's why I advocate for certain fantastic features that really should be part of the base game itself.

[Killcreek2]

Originally posted by Warlord:

Blueprint flipping could be locked away behind an advanced feature, but still available to people that desire it.

+1, great idea. There could also be a clear warning message when the player enables it in the options menu (like the "reset achievements" popup confirmation box) ~ so new players get buffered from easy access to the advanced feature, and everyone using it (should) then know that their mirrored blueprint would need checking & possibly fixing before use. Best of both worlds.