Do you think trains will become obsolete?

[Falesz]

Hey all,
With the latest FFF bringing us news of a belt that can transport 60 items per second AND the fact that items can be put into stacks of 4, meaning maximum belt throughput will get to 240 items in total per second, do you think trains are going to become completely obsolete? I hope not. Trains are pretty much my favorite toys in the game and I would hate to see them outbelted. Trains already are kind of optional, I do have a friend with hundreds of hours in the game who has never used a single train in the game, he's perfectly fine using express belts over long distances.
The devs did state sometime earlier that they want trains to remain the transport tools for the highest volume of items, so I wonder how trains will remain the top heavyweight carriers? I would love to see simple, but powerful train upgrades like cargo wagon capacity research or roboport wagons where trains don't need loading stations to load or unload cargo, because they are the loading station.

[Drizzt]

Publicado originalmente por malogoss:

I personally don't wish they'll be a thing. But even if I did, I would not have much hope on train tunnels happening.

The FFF about elevated rails stated that they evaluated their options, they could have decided to go for tunnels but in the end they chose elevated rails for many reasons. Tunnels would create new problems and since elevated rails can accomplish almost anything tunnels would (if not everything), I don't see why they'd invest time in them now that they chose elevated rails.

yeah i did think i recalled them mentioning that (even though i only skimmed the FFF to avoid too many spoilers :-))

so we shall wait and see if we get the full elevated terrain experience (and associated transportation and terraforming options) in Factorio 2 (not trying to rush them in any way lol)

and for now i am very excited to play with those elevated rails :-)
(and the more varied track curves - gonna be awesome :-))

[knighttemplar1960]

They decided against tunnels for several reasons. Inability to place signals inside the tunnels, if players have access bugs would also have to have access, different layer from the robots so repairs would be impractical, They felt tunnels over water would be "wrong", masking to draw the tunnels isn't possible with the current (or expanded) Factorio engine, among other things. So they decided to go exclusively with elevated rails.

[Falesz]

The main problem with train tunnels that I recall from the old FFF is how to access underground trains, what happens to them if they run out of fuel underground, how to fix that? Too much of a hassle, so no dice there.

[Drizzt]

Publicado originalmente por knighttemplar1960:

They decided against tunnels for several reasons. Inability to place signals inside the tunnels, if players have access bugs would also have to have access, different layer from the robots so repairs would be impractical, They felt tunnels over water would be "wrong", masking to draw the tunnels isn't possible with the current (or expanded) Factorio engine, among other things. So they decided to go exclusively with elevated rails.

Publicado originalmente por Csöpper:

The main problem with train tunnels that I recall from the old FFF is how to access underground trains, what happens to them if they run out of fuel underground, how to fix that? Too much of a hassle, so no dice there.

yup - all those reasons make perfect sense :-)

[Ragnaman]

trains have never been mandatory to beat the game really. And trains scale better than belts in large systems. Unless you plan to belt bus the entire planet with circuit network controlled inserters mimicking loading/unloading stations, you wont get far without trains.

[Katitoff]

Publicado originalmente por Sushi Dragon:

Publicado originalmente por schnappkatze:

With belts you need to build them the whole way, to the exact location where you need them and they may not overlap with other belts/things.

This is exactly the same with trains though... and trains are a higher logistical cost. Belts can go underground.

Trains cost remain the same regardless of distance.
Train tracks are cheap.
Belts, even undergrounds are not.

Try running 8 line belt for 50 chunks and you'll quickly understand what actually is cheaper
and more efficient option here.

[GreenBeanN1]

Not sure what the speed of items on a legendary blue belt is. But belts don't require energy. So at some moment in time belts will be cheaper than a train.

But don't be sad. Even today steam trains are used. So for old fashioned Factorio users there is no reason to despair. And you get space trains back.

[PunCrathod]

Publicado originalmente por GreenBeanN1:

Not sure what the speed of items on a legendary blue belt is. But belts don't require energy. So at some moment in time belts will be cheaper than a train.

But don't be sad. Even today steam trains are used. So for old fashioned Factorio users there is no reason to despair. And you get space trains back.

Belt quality only affects their health. So a legendary blue belt is just as fast as a normal blue belt.

[GreenBeanN1]

Oh :( that is useless.

But ...but...ah trains go back empty. Belts don't.

[Maltsi]

Publicado originalmente por GreenBeanN1:

Oh :( that is useless.

But ...but...ah trains go back empty. Belts don't.

Thats a non issue, when train is going back you have another one already going in or maybe even had one waiting in stacker already.

as for the topic
I don't see how trains would become obsolete no matter how mega fast belts they add in ever. Good luck routing 50-100k+ belts for each distant mine (and to actually build them). Your UPS will die faster than ever. Unless ofc the belt lovers here plays with maxed out resources so there is no need to ever expand more than your starting screen. Which im sure at least one of you is doing (im looking at you who sends clowns to every one using trains).

[Chindraba]

Just a few minor points to remember.

• The faster belts are likely to be very expensive. I don't even like using blues unless I need to
  
• The faster belts require having been to, and developed, one of the other planets, so trains are probably already running long before then
  
• The bulk inserter is a brand new idea, made in response to a joke posted in Discord
  
• The bulk inserter has not had nearly as much play-testing as everything else, and there might be adjustments to how it works, as well as it's cost
  
• The bulk inserter is also locked behind a planet, and I think it's not the same planet as the faster belt, so two planets visited before the full power of the pair is available
  
• Both the faster belt and bulk inserter are Space Age only (for now anyway), so when playing a regular game, even with the expansion pack purchased, if you're not using the Space Age mod you'll never see them (of course other mods might use them too)

After all the conditions to have the pair available, and if the cost don't matter, then it's possible that in a head-to-head comparison the new setup could be better than a train. And, unless the cost is super mega high, it might not be a factor anyway since the initial cost of setting up a train might be way less, trains do require a constant supply of fuel while the belts are free to run after the one-time cost of building them.

Where the difference lies is the same place it does IRL for most comparisons, A good 4K monitor beats a great 1080p monitor in nearly every test I've seen. And a 4K monitor is a complete waste of resources if you don't have a 4K-ready GPU, and same games or videos that are 4K and a computer with enough power to process those games or videos to send the data to the GPU. The key is the "special thing" might be great on its own, but it still has to be part of a full system.

The new belts and inserters have to work as part of the factory, not as a race with the train. Without some fancy, and easy to break, circuit network stuff, a system of belts to replace a system of trains is going to require much more space to use. One section of rail can support trains full of any ore from several mines, without having to worry about which ore it is. Just limiting the massive capacity to long-haul resources from outposts there are still 5 resources to carry; iron ore, copper ore, coal, stone, and crude oil. (I'm not counting uranium ore since it's not part of making science for a mega base and most mega bases switch to solar anyway.) Each of those will need their own belt, and for a growing mega base each one will require its own collection of belts. To run a 10 KSPM base would require 286 of the new belts always full with full stacks of resources (using barrels for the crude oil). That is a 572-tile wide "bus" coming into the main base. Using trains, in a typical configuration that can be done with 2 rails in each direction (in and out). The most common setup it 4 rails worth of space between rails, so that is a total width of 32 tiles, a mere 5.5% of the space needed to run belts. And none of that figures in the process of making the belts cross each other as they get routed from the mines/smelters to where they need to go in the base.

It gets worse if I decide to make a 20 KSPM base. Now I have to double the number of belts, literally double, coming into the base. I don't have to add a single rail to the base. Yes I will have to double the number of mines, including going further out in the map to find them, but It will not require adding a single width of incoming rail to the base. Without out knowing the extra ingredients, and costs, of the new science packs, and where/how they get produced and used, I cannot even estimate their impact, yet I know it can only make the comparison worse for the belt version.

---

Final answer: No, I don't think trains will become obsolete. Not even in the future mega-bases of Space Age.

[Drizzt]

anyone recall what they said Quality will do for trains? (or rails?) or to fuel?

[Maltsi]

Publicado originalmente por Drizzt:

anyone recall what they said Quality will do for trains? (or rails?) or to fuel?

in reddit one of the developers said that fuel or trains will not have quality. can't find the post anymore since its been a while now.
Reason for trains not having quality was something to do with not being able to easily replace them like any other entitty

[Drizzt]

Publicado originalmente por Maltsi:

Publicado originalmente por Drizzt:

anyone recall what they said Quality will do for trains? (or rails?) or to fuel?

in reddit one of the developers said that fuel or trains will not have quality. can't find the post anymore since its been a while now.
Reason for trains not having quality was something to do with not being able to easily replace them like any other entitty

cool - thanks - was just a wonder based on a mention of Quality in another post

regardless, trains will never be obsolete - i don't care if belts move at 3 trillion kph and transport 8 billion items per second - trains are fun :-)

[brian_va]

Publicado originalmente por Drizzt:

regardless, trains will never be obsolete - i don't care if belts move at 3 trillion kph and transport 8 billions items per second - trains are fun :-)

spaghetti would become the way to go, you'd only need 1 belt snaking through your factory.