I will die on the hill fighting against spoilage

[Falesz]

Block me if you must. Ban me if you must. I will never stop hoping the devs change this and never stop venting my frustration with this one singular feature that keeps Factorio: Space Age from being an absolute flawless masterpiece in my eyes.
This is the worst thing in this game ever in the form it was implemented. The idea was fun and good, but it's just executed so badly. I will try to collect my thoughts and arguments about this in a logical and rational fashion so we can have a conversation about it if you want. Or you can just shower me with clown emojis and tell me repeatedly to git gud.

First of all, Nutrients. If you don't use any Assembling machines, Nutrients are required to make Nutrients. To make Nutrients, you can use Nutrients to mash Yumako fruit into Yumako mash and use Nutrients to turn Yumako mash into Nutrients. This means a product is required for an automated system 2 steps before it can be created. This means that unless you are a literal Software Engineering genius, you will need some manual input to start up the system and will never be able to account for all edge cases that would make the system break down. Now I haven't had such a Nutrient blackout in my main Agri science setup yet, but Fish breeding for example is an absolute pain because Nutrients in a huge amount are needed just to keep the system going and not enough can be produced with the output of the Fish breeding Biochamber. I wanted to use the Nutrients from fish recipe to create a self sufficient system, but had to resort to using Bioflux imports to make the Nutrients because otherwise there just isn't enough of them. This however makes my Fish breeding system dependent on Bioflux imports from Gleba which can go wrong in a million ways. Right now I have a space platform solely dedicated to transporting Bioflux from Gleba to Nauvis and Biter eggs from Nauvis to Gleba. Often times my Biter egg production isn't enough to make quick enough trips and the Bioflux is liable to run out on Nauvis. I could scale up my Biter egg production just for this reason, but I don't want to do that now because if I get to that, I want to utilize the techs I will be getting from Aquilo to help me with it. Or I could just build another space platform to separate those transports. Either way, a giant, tedious headache. And the manual startup is just so annoying. The game was about automation. It was about creating a robust design. Now it will never be completely self-sufficient, just what you might call "good enough". Absolutely displeasing from a mathematical viewpoint.

Second of all, Agri science packs. Why. Just.. why. I accepted that my intermediate products come from an infinite supply of base resources and so with a proper system they can go to waste, because no value is actually lost. But that is mostly contained to my tiny Gleba factory where I settled into this mentality and got accustomed to building Inserters and Active provider chests next to every single damn building and transport belt to deal with the Spoilage, but.. why do we have to even deal with that with our end products, bringing the pain back to Nauvis? This is what I was referring to in my first paragraph. I will never stop hoping the devs remove the spoilable property from Agri science packs. They can't be stored, so what if I want to research Worker robot speed 12 sometime? I will just get a million pieces of spoilage because the Agri science packs I spent Rocket launches, space platform trips, Logi bot workload on just go to waste right there inside my Labs. This was so absurd to me I actually believed for some time that the science packs might lose their spoilable property upon entering a Lab until I noticed the Spoilage started accumulating in a trash slot of the Labs. It's just not fun.

Thirdly, the Biter eggs and Pentapod eggs. Before 2.0 the one of the main principles I had that made the game challenging, but FUN to play was to make a robust factory without any warnings. Thats why I included deliveries of Rocket fuel to EVERY train station on the map, so I would never get "Train out of fuel" warnings. That is why I created defensive perimiters so overkill they would never be touched by the Biters, so I wouldn't get "Buildings are being damaged" warnings and even on the off chance they damaged something, everything was always covered with Roboports, Construction bots and Repair kits, as well as all of my outposts being supplied with EVERY single building they consist of so if anything was ever destroyed, they could be replaced by the bots. Now with Pentapod eggs and Biter eggs constantly bursting because I'm not just unwilling, but I'm pretty sure I'm unable to PERFECTLY match up production with consumption of these items accounting for all outside effects affecting the system from my giant factory, I keep getting hostile encounter warning every single minute and it is just so jarring and annoying. It's like compiler warnings: you can live with them if you are uncivilized, but any self-respecting system designer will eradicate them before they call the job done. And it's just impossible now. No matter how many Laser turrets and Tesla turrets I place around my dangerous Egg processing facilites, they always manage to hit something first. And not to mention their transportation: before 2.0 it was SO pleasing to divide the game world up into two parts based on the extent of my defenses: the Factory where Biters can NOT enter and can be considered perfectly safe, surrounded by seas, cliffs and an ungodly amount of Gun turrets supplied with Uranium ammo and Flamethrower turrets supplied with Light oil.. and the outside world, the Wilds, where Biters roam, nowhere is safe and the only objective out there can be conquest and eradication. Now with Biter and Pentapod eggs I have to consider every single railway that can transport Biter eggs unsafe, every train station unloading them, every belt carrying them, every space platform carrying them. It's just such a huge pain and just completely messes up the vibe of the game. This could have been solved with some sort of freezing technology. Just for the eggs. Just freeze them to stop them from hatching and thaw them for processing.

I will never understand why the devs went SO hardass on "Spoilage is there, even for you Science packs, you will have to juggle it at EVERY STEP even in interplanetary logistics and NO way to stop it."
Makes me sad.

[Falesz]

Originally posted by Strategic Sage:

Originally posted by Csopper:

I feel an absolute 100% certainty the most output I could get out of the devs if they ever read this are some snarky comments, something along the lines of "Well we're going to make items spoil even harder now" or "That gives me an idea: how about spoiling blue chips and iron plates?"

This 'feeling' is completely unjustified.

You may be right. When I had serious questions and comments before, maybe the Discord was the wrong place to go. Maybe if I asked them on the forums, I actually would have gotten some conversation-worthy answers. As for my experience on the Discord, all I ever got when I expressed concerns about various aspects of the then-upcoming expansion or asked questions regarding my ideas and wishes for the expansion, all I ever got were snarky comments, ridicule and a feeling of talking to a collective of brick walls.
And I promise, I wasn't trying to be intentionally difficult then.
I was asking stuff like "I think it would be cool if I could process the Lava on Nauvis, would it be possible to barrel and transport the Lava between planets? Maybe with an upgraded tier of Tungsten barrels?" And the only sort of response I ever got was "Lol why would you even want to do that, just play the game like "normal""

[Falesz]

Originally posted by Khaylain:

Ah, a fellow enjoyer of not buying the expansion when it involves something we're not interested in. And without saying that those things are ♥♥♥♥, they're just not for us.
Have you looked at Seablock, since you like Nullius? I'm assuming Nullius is probably going to get updated to 2.0 at some point, and I know that the maintainer for Seablock is working on getting all the mods for it updated to 2.0.

Ok now that attitude and derailing of the topic is just uncalled for. Please don't make me explain how 1 feature I heavily dislike out of 1000 features I mostly love doesn't automatically mean the entirety of the product is not for me and I shouldn't be interested in it.

[Marosh]

Originally posted by Csöpper:

I feel an absolute 100% certainty the most output I could get out of the devs if they ever read this are some snarky comments, something along the lines of "Well we're going to make items spoil even harder now" or "That gives me an idea: how about spoiling blue chips and iron plates?" I wanted to possibly have a conversation with other players who are not devs, if that's possible (I've seen enough ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ on this Steam forum to know it is very possible I will just get ridiculed here as well).

That is a childish mindset about the devs. It sounds more like you are insecure about your own opinion and not like someone looking for an honest conversation, in the hopes to get some back pats.

Open your mindset and try the official forums. You might even get an answer for why something is like it is, if you are looking for an honest conversation.

Just a tip:
"I will die on the hill fighting against spoilage" is not a good start into any conversation.

[Sky Render]

I've seen the logistics chains in Factorio referred to as "puzzles", and that's definitely the case with Gleba and its rampant spoilage problems. You absolutely need to use inventory control methods to make sure that product is only processed when you need it to avoid massive spoilage. And that requires some very smart use of the Circuit Network and Logistics Network to pull off. But you can in fact, with enough prep, have a setup where everything is processed swiftly and with minimal spoilage. You can even set up an emergency system to keep things going should the nutrient supply ever dip too low.

There's also the "panic at the disco" solution where you just let everything flow normally, get craptons of spoilage, and have your bots constantly moving spoilage out of problem areas and into chests that burn the spoilage immediately. It's not efficient but it can keep things running for anywhere from several hours to several days depending on how clever you are with your setup.

For the labs, one easy way is to set up an arm at the far end of the daisy-chain of arms that feed your labs to grab agricultural science packs when activated, and only activate it when you're doing research that doesn't need agricultural science packs. It'll empty all of the labs of those things in short order. Disable the arm(s) feeding agri packs to the labs at the same time and you're golden, you just need to burn the spoilage so it doesn't pile up.

[Vigilante]

Instead of shipping research out why are you not shipping it in then the spoil never leaves the planet ?
And the inbound research can’t spoil so your spoil able research gets used instantly on-planet?

[Falesz]

Originally posted by Marosh:

Originally posted by Csöpper:

I feel an absolute 100% certainty the most output I could get out of the devs if they ever read this are some snarky comments, something along the lines of "Well we're going to make items spoil even harder now" or "That gives me an idea: how about spoiling blue chips and iron plates?" I wanted to possibly have a conversation with other players who are not devs, if that's possible (I've seen enough ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ on this Steam forum to know it is very possible I will just get ridiculed here as well).

That is a childish mindset about the devs. It sounds more like you are insecure about your own opinion and not like someone looking for an honest conversation, in the hopes to get some back pats.

Open your mindset and try the official forums. You might even get an answer for why something is like it is, if you are looking for an honest conversation.

Just a tip:
"I will die on the hill fighting against spoilage" is not a good start into any conversation.

I am definitely not insecure about my opinion. I voiced them several times on the Discord before. Whether or not that was the right place isn't the point here; I will try the forums if you suggest I would get different results there. I gave the topic the title because I feel that the regular forum goers here on Steam are already pushing against anyone who would criticize the feature with different arguments, none of which have convinced me so far that the problems I have with spoilage aren't real and only live in my head.

[Falesz]

Originally posted by Vigilante:

Instead of shipping research out why are you not shipping it in then the spoil never leaves the planet ?
And the inbound research can’t spoil so your spoil able research gets used instantly on-planet?

Because that would restrict my access to Biolabs, which can only be built on Nauvis. By restricting the Biolabs to Nauvis, the devs clearly designated Nauvis to be the "Research planet".

By the way I originally also hated the idea of not being able to craft or build certain things wherever I wanted, but the devs gave in-game explanations for those cases with stuff like atmospheric pressure requirements and Biter spawners only surviving in their own climate, as well as having actually been introduced to a viewpoint I did not consider before that changed my mind about the whole thing: considering the different planets not as separate factories, but as a single huge factory network. With this viewpoint the idea of not being able to craft Foundries anywhere became as easy to accept as accepting I can't get Iron ore out of a Coal patch.

[Pr0wn]

I think you could have a bit more faith in the devs though, complaints about spoilage are quite frequent so they might actually do something about it.

There will always be mods to make the game behave the way you want in the meantime.

[Mike Garrison]

Originally posted by Khaylain:

Originally posted by Mike Garrison:

You know what else is forced on you if you want to play Space Age? The space platforms and the new planets.

I say this unsarcastically.

I was so looking forward to Factorio 2.0 and the expansion, until I realized how much of it was based on mods that I never wanted to play even when I could get them for free.

My preferred way to play Factorio has become Nullius, precisely because it takes away all enemies and replaces them with a complex web of production chains.

In 4x terminology, a mod like Nullius goes for "tall", while as best I can tell the Space Age expansion goes for "wide".

So ... I haven't bought the expansion. I may never buy it. I may be missing out, but there are so many games to play that playing one always means missing out on another.

Ah, a fellow enjoyer of not buying the expansion when it involves something we're not interested in. And without saying that those things are ♥♥♥♥, they're just not for us.
Have you looked at Seablock, since you like Nullius? I'm assuming Nullius is probably going to get updated to 2.0 at some point, and I know that the maintainer for Seablock is working on getting all the mods for it updated to 2.0.

The author of Nullius said he is working on two versions: one for V2.0 without Space Age, and one for Space Age.

[Maltsi]

So what exactly is the problem here?
Your manual input issue is solved by making the kick start nutrient with assemblers from spoilage.
Your spoilage issue in nauvis is solved by BELTING it to effiency 3 modules and rest to heating towers or for fish nutrient since that also seem to be issue.
Your biter eggs hatching issue is solved by burning any unused ones in heating towers. No need for turrets at all. Also biter eggs doesn't hatch when they are inside the nests.
Your pentapod eggs hatching issue is solved by limiting how many you breed them at once. no need for turrets at all.

ive had all of them running now for 100+ hours and absolutely zero manual inputs needed. The only thing i need to do in gleba once in a while is to kill the expanding enemies.

If aggri packs didn't rot, then you would run out of pentapod eggs at some point since you wouldn't be making more of them.

[Glyph]

If you can defend your farms from pentapods your Gleba factory will run forever, assuming you designed it to take advantage of the functionally infinite input and disposal of the excess output.

[BigManJenkins]

Originally posted by Nonotorious:

I think it's hilarious that we get to cryogenics but there isn't a way to freeze everything and negate the spoilage, i haven't made it to aquilo yet but looking through the factoriopedia i didn't see anything.
Like most mechanics you figure it out and then eventually you overbuild or redesign things, for example you start with coal powered miners then you make electric ones and you no longer have to feed it with 'nutrients', the same is true for smelting, you start with coal and end with foundries and molten ore.
Perhaps we will see new stuff added in 2.1 or w/e down the line to ease our suffering.
Atleast the fruits are infinite so it doesn't matter if ♥♥♥♥ spoils.

Honestly, I hadn't thought if this was a possibility since I'm viewing it all in the in-game Wiki. This would've been an awesome idea to chill science for a longer duration & prevent/reduce spoiling before sending it up to space.

Applying it to all items with a spoil timer would've been an neat extra-step for larger factories.

Don't see an issue with providing nutrients before the system can start up if it shuts down, spoilage is abundant, resources are infinite, setup one or two assembling machines that convert spoilage into nutrients which then start up your main line, throw in some circuit logic and you've got a automated machine. Along with Efficiency Modules for -80% power consumption, 1 nutrient then powers a machine for 20 seconds.

The only thing you're looking to do is have a constantly flow of resources going through the system, and if anything can expire, it should never be sitting/backing up in your factory lines - yes I'm aware this is self-explanatory, but just create belts that don't stop, and then reach a burner section to be destroyed. All of my excess Jelly/Mash is fuel to keep my heat exchanges close to maxed out, and lands up looking really neat.

As for the pentapod eggs, could only recommend setting up more science production than egg production, no reason to match it (unless it's an OCD thing?). I can't speak on any Biter Eggs on Nauvis as I've not set this up yet. Not a fan of my science packs spoiling, but it's an infinite resource, made really quickly, need more rockets to launch simultaneously and a fast moving platform to get science back to Nauvis.

Lastly, touching on modules again, don't use modules to speed up machines unless you absolutely want to. Prioritise the -80% energy consumption for any machine that uses nutrients for power, then make a factory that works. Done? Copy & paste it instead of boosting things with productivity/speed modules.

[Hurkyl]

Some other automation you seem to have overlooked.

You can craft nutrients from spoilage in an assembler, so you can make a way to automatically restart a system that breaks down if you have a spoilage reserve. Something you probably have a lot of when the system breaks down.

Making space platforms need not be a "giant tedious headache". With automation, the only player intervention necessary is to hit the make a new platform button, and then come back once the starter kit is launched into space so as to copy-paste your old platform onto the new one (or use a previously-made blueprint), and then change the schedule to your liking.

[Hurkyl]

Originally posted by BigManJenkins:

Lastly, touching on modules again, don't use modules to speed up machines unless you absolutely want to. Prioritise the -80% energy consumption for any machine that uses nutrients for power, then make a factory that works. Done? Copy & paste it instead of boosting things with productivity/speed modules.

I have exactly the opposite opinion: it seems easier to keep nutrients delivery flowing and unclogged with spoilage when you have a high consumption rate rather than a low consumption rate. Especially since the bioflux to nutrients recipe produces large stacks of wildly varying sizes (alternating between 40 large and 80 large).

[BigManJenkins]

Originally posted by Hurkyl:

Originally posted by BigManJenkins:

Lastly, touching on modules again, don't use modules to speed up machines unless you absolutely want to. Prioritise the -80% energy consumption for any machine that uses nutrients for power, then make a factory that works. Done? Copy & paste it instead of boosting things with productivity/speed modules.

I have exactly the opposite opinion: it seems easier to keep nutrients delivery flowing and unclogged with spoilage when you have a high consumption rate rather than a low consumption rate. Especially since the bioflux to nutrients recipe produces large stacks of wildly varying sizes (alternating between 40 large and 80 large).

Absolutely fair, everyone will have a different way to tackle this challenge, with enough throughput, why not turn it to 11 and just make it consume as fast as possible. More consumption means get more resources, rinse and repeat and discard whatever is not used.

My second attempt at the factory was forcing bioflux & nutrients to consume very little power, then that thought propagated itself to all the structures. Once I finished the resource processing, my base quickly turned into spaghetti dealing with final products, not proud of it, but my first attempt was considerably worse.

I've gone back to Volcanus after unlocking cliff explosions to setup T4 Over & Underground Belts and Splitters, once I've setup Volcanus with roughly 4-12 rockets per minute, I'll be fixing up Nauvis and it's terrible science production.

I think that's what I enjoy most about it, after the starter Factory, I want to build a big boy factory, once I realise the big boy factory needs to be rebuilt, I really don't want to go through the effort of tearing it down and starting anew, so flying to a new planet to unlock useful new production chains or much more efficient/productive buildings was a huge plus for me.

Now to just bring it all back to home and set it up.