I will die on the hill fighting against spoilage

[Falesz]

Block me if you must. Ban me if you must. I will never stop hoping the devs change this and never stop venting my frustration with this one singular feature that keeps Factorio: Space Age from being an absolute flawless masterpiece in my eyes.
This is the worst thing in this game ever in the form it was implemented. The idea was fun and good, but it's just executed so badly. I will try to collect my thoughts and arguments about this in a logical and rational fashion so we can have a conversation about it if you want. Or you can just shower me with clown emojis and tell me repeatedly to git gud.

First of all, Nutrients. If you don't use any Assembling machines, Nutrients are required to make Nutrients. To make Nutrients, you can use Nutrients to mash Yumako fruit into Yumako mash and use Nutrients to turn Yumako mash into Nutrients. This means a product is required for an automated system 2 steps before it can be created. This means that unless you are a literal Software Engineering genius, you will need some manual input to start up the system and will never be able to account for all edge cases that would make the system break down. Now I haven't had such a Nutrient blackout in my main Agri science setup yet, but Fish breeding for example is an absolute pain because Nutrients in a huge amount are needed just to keep the system going and not enough can be produced with the output of the Fish breeding Biochamber. I wanted to use the Nutrients from fish recipe to create a self sufficient system, but had to resort to using Bioflux imports to make the Nutrients because otherwise there just isn't enough of them. This however makes my Fish breeding system dependent on Bioflux imports from Gleba which can go wrong in a million ways. Right now I have a space platform solely dedicated to transporting Bioflux from Gleba to Nauvis and Biter eggs from Nauvis to Gleba. Often times my Biter egg production isn't enough to make quick enough trips and the Bioflux is liable to run out on Nauvis. I could scale up my Biter egg production just for this reason, but I don't want to do that now because if I get to that, I want to utilize the techs I will be getting from Aquilo to help me with it. Or I could just build another space platform to separate those transports. Either way, a giant, tedious headache. And the manual startup is just so annoying. The game was about automation. It was about creating a robust design. Now it will never be completely self-sufficient, just what you might call "good enough". Absolutely displeasing from a mathematical viewpoint.

Second of all, Agri science packs. Why. Just.. why. I accepted that my intermediate products come from an infinite supply of base resources and so with a proper system they can go to waste, because no value is actually lost. But that is mostly contained to my tiny Gleba factory where I settled into this mentality and got accustomed to building Inserters and Active provider chests next to every single damn building and transport belt to deal with the Spoilage, but.. why do we have to even deal with that with our end products, bringing the pain back to Nauvis? This is what I was referring to in my first paragraph. I will never stop hoping the devs remove the spoilable property from Agri science packs. They can't be stored, so what if I want to research Worker robot speed 12 sometime? I will just get a million pieces of spoilage because the Agri science packs I spent Rocket launches, space platform trips, Logi bot workload on just go to waste right there inside my Labs. This was so absurd to me I actually believed for some time that the science packs might lose their spoilable property upon entering a Lab until I noticed the Spoilage started accumulating in a trash slot of the Labs. It's just not fun.

Thirdly, the Biter eggs and Pentapod eggs. Before 2.0 the one of the main principles I had that made the game challenging, but FUN to play was to make a robust factory without any warnings. Thats why I included deliveries of Rocket fuel to EVERY train station on the map, so I would never get "Train out of fuel" warnings. That is why I created defensive perimiters so overkill they would never be touched by the Biters, so I wouldn't get "Buildings are being damaged" warnings and even on the off chance they damaged something, everything was always covered with Roboports, Construction bots and Repair kits, as well as all of my outposts being supplied with EVERY single building they consist of so if anything was ever destroyed, they could be replaced by the bots. Now with Pentapod eggs and Biter eggs constantly bursting because I'm not just unwilling, but I'm pretty sure I'm unable to PERFECTLY match up production with consumption of these items accounting for all outside effects affecting the system from my giant factory, I keep getting hostile encounter warning every single minute and it is just so jarring and annoying. It's like compiler warnings: you can live with them if you are uncivilized, but any self-respecting system designer will eradicate them before they call the job done. And it's just impossible now. No matter how many Laser turrets and Tesla turrets I place around my dangerous Egg processing facilites, they always manage to hit something first. And not to mention their transportation: before 2.0 it was SO pleasing to divide the game world up into two parts based on the extent of my defenses: the Factory where Biters can NOT enter and can be considered perfectly safe, surrounded by seas, cliffs and an ungodly amount of Gun turrets supplied with Uranium ammo and Flamethrower turrets supplied with Light oil.. and the outside world, the Wilds, where Biters roam, nowhere is safe and the only objective out there can be conquest and eradication. Now with Biter and Pentapod eggs I have to consider every single railway that can transport Biter eggs unsafe, every train station unloading them, every belt carrying them, every space platform carrying them. It's just such a huge pain and just completely messes up the vibe of the game. This could have been solved with some sort of freezing technology. Just for the eggs. Just freeze them to stop them from hatching and thaw them for processing.

I will never understand why the devs went SO hardass on "Spoilage is there, even for you Science packs, you will have to juggle it at EVERY STEP even in interplanetary logistics and NO way to stop it."
Makes me sad.

[Khaylain]

Not like the developers are going to read your treatise here anyway.
But keep rolling that boulder up the hill, Sisyphus.

[Falesz]

Oh I wouldn't want them to read it. I've been to the Discord, I know they are giant trolls. I felt the need to vent here and maybe get some understanding of my pain.

[Khaylain]

The discord isn't ran by them, from what I know. The forum is the proper place to give feedback from what I understand.

I don't understand the point of writing such a rant if not wanting to actually have it read and possibly used to change the thing you're ranting about, though.

[Mike Garrison]

Originally posted by Khaylain:

I don't understand the point of writing such a rant if not wanting to actually have it read and possibly used to change the thing you're ranting about, though.

Really? Have you never felt the relief of letting loose a rant? You must be an unusual person.

[Falesz]

I feel an absolute 100% certainty the most output I could get out of the devs if they ever read this are some snarky comments, something along the lines of "Well we're going to make items spoil even harder now" or "That gives me an idea: how about spoiling blue chips and iron plates?" I wanted to possibly have a conversation with other players who are not devs, if that's possible (I've seen enough ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ on this Steam forum to know it is very possible I will just get ridiculed here as well).

[Pr0wn]

Ok I get your point, Gleba spoilage mechanic is forced on you if you want to play space age. As it is very different from any other game mechanic there is some dissonance.

From your post it seems that your main problem is about eggs hatching and creating alerts. A mod that made eggs turn into spoilage instead of hatching would do the trick without removing the feature.

I wouldn’t want spoilage to be removed from the game completely, but we could benefit from an option to disable for some items or a slider to multiply spoilage times like the ore sliders.

[Khaylain]

Originally posted by Mike Garrison:

Originally posted by Khaylain:

I don't understand the point of writing such a rant if not wanting to actually have it read and possibly used to change the thing you're ranting about, though.

Really? Have you never felt the relief of letting loose a rant? You must be an unusual person.

To me, if I don't think it's actually going to change anything it's not worth investing the time in writing a long rant. I would actually think it's more the other way around, since "vocal minority" is a big thing, so I would think it's a lot more people that just don't write long rants to feel that "relief" you're talking about. You do you, though.

[königplatzen]

If you don't like the mechanic, just use a mod or write one.

[Mike Garrison]

Originally posted by Pr0wn:

Ok I get your point, Gleba spoilage mechanic is forced on you if you want to play space age. As it is very different from any other game mechanic there is some dissonance.

From your post it seems that your main problem is about eggs hatching and creating alerts. A mod that made eggs turn into spoilage instead of hatching would do the trick without removing the feature.

I wouldn’t want spoilage to be removed from the game completely, but we could benefit from an option to disable for some items or a slider to multiply spoilage times like the ore sliders.

You know what else is forced on you if you want to play Space Age? The space platforms and the new planets.

I say this unsarcastically.

I was so looking forward to Factorio 2.0 and the expansion, until I realized how much of it was based on mods that I never wanted to play even when I could get them for free.

My preferred way to play Factorio has become Nullius, precisely because it takes away all enemies and replaces them with a complex web of production chains.

In 4x terminology, a mod like Nullius goes for "tall", while as best I can tell the Space Age expansion goes for "wide".

So ... I haven't bought the expansion. I may never buy it. I may be missing out, but there are so many games to play that playing one always means missing out on another.

[Falesz]

Using mods disables achievements. Thats not an option until I collect them all. I know, I know. "Stop caring about achievements, problem solved". It's part of the fun for me, I like to look at the dates I achieved certain achievements for my favorite games and remember those times and I like to compare them with the chievos of some of my friends.

[Falesz]

Originally posted by Pr0wn:

I wouldn’t want spoilage to be removed from the game completely, but we could benefit from an option to disable for some items or a slider to multiply spoilage times like the ore sliders.

I wouldn't want the feature to be removed completely, just.. add some more researchable techs to the game. Make spoilable items freezable, at least the hostile eggs. Add some way to make a considerable amount of Nutrients without actually needing a considerable amount of Nutrients to start the process. Doesn't matter if all those are late game techs, as long as they are there and can be reached. Just something to make all of this pain manageable in the long run.

[Nonotorious]

I think it's hilarious that we get to cryogenics but there isn't a way to freeze everything and negate the spoilage, i haven't made it to aquilo yet but looking through the factoriopedia i didn't see anything.
Like most mechanics you figure it out and then eventually you overbuild or redesign things, for example you start with coal powered miners then you make electric ones and you no longer have to feed it with 'nutrients', the same is true for smelting, you start with coal and end with foundries and molten ore.
Perhaps we will see new stuff added in 2.1 or w/e down the line to ease our suffering.
Atleast the fruits are infinite so it doesn't matter if ♥♥♥♥ spoils.

[Strategic Sage]

Originally posted by Csopper:

I feel an absolute 100% certainty the most output I could get out of the devs if they ever read this are some snarky comments, something along the lines of "Well we're going to make items spoil even harder now" or "That gives me an idea: how about spoiling blue chips and iron plates?"

This 'feeling' is completely unjustified.

[Strategic Sage]

Originally posted by Csopper:

Using mods disables achievements. Thats not an option until I collect them all. I know, I know. "Stop caring about achievements, problem solved". It's part of the fun for me, I like to look at the dates I achieved certain achievements for my favorite games and remember those times and I like to compare them with the chievos of some of my friends.

Learn to have fun in other ways. I mean, if you're doing something you don't like doing for the purpose of a pointless glorified merit badge, there's only one person causing what you describe as pain.

That's the person in the mirror.

[Khaylain]

Originally posted by Mike Garrison:

Originally posted by Pr0wn:

Ok I get your point, Gleba spoilage mechanic is forced on you if you want to play space age. As it is very different from any other game mechanic there is some dissonance.

From your post it seems that your main problem is about eggs hatching and creating alerts. A mod that made eggs turn into spoilage instead of hatching would do the trick without removing the feature.

I wouldn’t want spoilage to be removed from the game completely, but we could benefit from an option to disable for some items or a slider to multiply spoilage times like the ore sliders.

You know what else is forced on you if you want to play Space Age? The space platforms and the new planets.

I say this unsarcastically.

I was so looking forward to Factorio 2.0 and the expansion, until I realized how much of it was based on mods that I never wanted to play even when I could get them for free.

My preferred way to play Factorio has become Nullius, precisely because it takes away all enemies and replaces them with a complex web of production chains.

In 4x terminology, a mod like Nullius goes for "tall", while as best I can tell the Space Age expansion goes for "wide".

So ... I haven't bought the expansion. I may never buy it. I may be missing out, but there are so many games to play that playing one always means missing out on another.

Ah, a fellow enjoyer of not buying the expansion when it involves something we're not interested in. And without saying that those things are ♥♥♥♥, they're just not for us.
Have you looked at Seablock, since you like Nullius? I'm assuming Nullius is probably going to get updated to 2.0 at some point, and I know that the maintainer for Seablock is working on getting all the mods for it updated to 2.0.