Gleba, infinite ressources yet hated to much. Why?

[LittlePeach]

At first I was very opposed to a DLC costing as much as the game itself, but I was wrong about this. The game offers so much content and one planet after the other amazes me. I fell in love with each of them and I didn't even completed the game yet as I want to optimize the first three (besides Nauvis) before moving on.

So my question to all the people hating gleba, what is it that you hate about it so much? I was quite surprised looking into the forum to see the hate about this planet as it is, so far, my most favourite planet and the third I discovered. Completely new way of building a base, infinite ressources, interessting enemy types, cool tech and a funny way of powering your base.

It didn't came to my mind that anyone could hate this, so can you explain what it is that you try to stay away from it? Is it the spoilage? If yes, why is it a problem other than an interessting "riddle" to solve?

[knighttemplar1960]

Цитата допису Fletch:

Цитата допису knighttemplar1960:

Your posts won't change the fact that my teammates abandoned for the reasons mentioned or the fact that the mechanics on Gleba (and to some point Aquillo) make those planets boring and annoying with no tech to create a reprieve, only cheeses to dodge.

Your buddies rage-quit the game because Gleba/Spoilage was too "boring and easy"?
I highly doubt that.

But if it is so boring and easy for them, there's a mod to take it to the next 50 levels (thanks again for this mod recommendation @Chindraba!):

https://mods.factorio.com/mod/rotten-world

Boring, easy, and no fun for me. Annoying, immersion breaking (they called it anti-Factorio), and not fun for them. It wasn't a rage quit for them. It was an apathy quit. They no longer care about Factorio and would rather play games that are fun.

[lethalmay]

Цитата допису Hurkyl:

Цитата допису lethalmay:

the only way to make it partly fun is to use recycling to get around spoilage as much as you can.

I haven't heard this strategy for dealing with spoilage. Is this just "burn all excess items in boilers/heating towers rather than letting belts back up" but done with recyclers instead, or is it something different?

You use eggs as an ingredient for biochambers. Those eggs can be all most spoiled. You can use a recycler to get 100% fresh eggs back. It makes no sense. I can't make a meatloaf, put it in a recycling bin, and get fresh eggs back.

[Torham]

Цитата допису lethalmay:

Цитата допису Hurkyl:

I haven't heard this strategy for dealing with spoilage. Is this just "burn all excess items in boilers/heating towers rather than letting belts back up" but done with recyclers instead, or is it something different?

You use eggs as an ingredient for biochambers. Those eggs can be all most spoiled. You can use a recycler to get 100% fresh eggs back. It makes no sense. I can't make a meatloaf, put it in a recycling bin, and get fresh eggs back.

Hold on, let me just put these nuclear reactors from my pocket into this box over here. Oh and the locomotive too... Now what was that about the eggs, unrealistic? yeah I guess it is a little bit.

[Chindraba]

Цитата допису lethalmay:

You use eggs as an ingredient for biochambers. Those eggs can be all most spoiled. You can use a recycler to get 100% fresh eggs back. It makes no sense. I can't make a meatloaf, put it in a recycling bin, and get fresh eggs back.

The really interesting part is that once you've put a whole stack of meatloaf, probably 100, into the recycler you'll get back a fresh cow. If it's an epic cow it might even produce chocolate milk. 5% chance it's a steer, however, which is good for nothing more than more meatloaf.

[lethalmay]

Цитата допису Torham:

Hold on, let me just put these nuclear reactors from my pocket into this box over here. Oh and the locomotive too... Now what was that about the eggs, unrealistic? yeah I guess it is a little bit.

That's been beaten to death over the years. Recyclers are new. Why am I so high tech that I can use all most spoiled eggs to make bichambers and get fresh eggs from recycling but I'm so low tech that I can't put spoilage into the recyclers and get fresh fruit back?

Цитата допису Chindraba:

The really interesting part is that once you've put a whole stack of meatloaf, probably 100, into the recycler you'll get back a fresh cow. If it's an epic cow it might even produce chocolate milk. 5% chance it's a steer, however, which is good for nothing more than more meatloaf.

Lol.

[Hurkyl]

Цитата допису lethalmay:

Цитата допису Hurkyl:

I haven't heard this strategy for dealing with spoilage. Is this just "burn all excess items in boilers/heating towers rather than letting belts back up" but done with recyclers instead, or is it something different?

You use eggs as an ingredient for biochambers. Those eggs can be all most spoiled. You can use a recycler to get 100% fresh eggs back. It makes no sense. I can't make a meatloaf, put it in a recycling bin, and get fresh eggs back.

Ah, that's what you were referring to. I was still thinking about the main manufacturing part of the system.

I'm surprised this caught on after suggesting it (I'm sure others have thought it up independently), but I suppose being able to shut down is easier to think about than hibernation.

[pretorian]

I hated Gleba at first but it has since started to grow on me. Mostly it's because it's very unclear what you are expected to do initially. Vulcanus and Fulgora also add new mechanics but it's pretty obvious what you are supposed to do utilize them.

Gleba on the other hand not only adds a totally new mechanic (spoilage) but also demands much deeper designs for it to work. Other planets you can pretty much "kick start" with some half baked designs and it works, at least to get you started.

Still, I think Gleba is a fairly ok planet. It feels like the agricultural theme is fairly fitting but it could perhaps been executed differently. I personally have never been a fan of games with inner "ticking timers" that you have to keep track of. It adds another layer of stress, on top of the evolution mechanic.

TL;DR - Gleba is ok but a clear tutorial wouldn't be amiss.

[Fletch]

Цитата допису knighttemplar1960:

Boring, easy, and no fun for me. Annoying, immersion breaking (they called it anti-Factorio), and not fun for them. It wasn't a rage quit for them. It was an apathy quit. They no longer care about Factorio and would rather play games that are fun.

Sound to me like Gleba wrecked their brains so much that they want nothing to do with Factorio anymore, including with even Vanilla playthroughs without spoilage (that's a rage quit). Nothing wrong with playing other games and coming back to Factorio later -- I do it myself (I've been on my Kenshi kick recently).

Anyhow, for you: if the spoilage concept is too boring and easy, take a serious look at that RottenWorld mod. It brings that Gleba/spoilage concept to anything and everything that can be stored in your inventory or on a belt (essentially the "everything spoils!" wish mod idea I talked about in these forums before SA was released). With that mod, literally everything starts to spoil as soon as it is created. Even a blueprint in your inventory will spoil :) Item spoilage rate is based on the item's weight (lightweight items spoil faster than heavier items). There are mod options to control spoilage rates.

Also: all buildings and built entities degrade (take damage) over time too -- so that is a brand new concept not related to spoilage at all. For example, when you lay a line of belts: they start to slowly take damage (from the environment) -- eventually ending in their complete destruction unless you repair them in time before health drops to 0. This part can be totally disabled in the mod settings, letting you just have the spoilage part enabled.

That mod is definitely not for the faint of heart, and I'd only recommend to anyone who TRULY thinks the spoilage mechanic is too boring/easy and want to expand that concept onto everything in the game. The mod can be played with/without SpaceAge mod enabled (Nauvis-only playthrough is supported): but you do must own the SA DLC for the mod to work because it requires the spoilage stuff which only exists in the DLC.

Цитата допису pretorian:

TL;DR - Gleba is ok but a clear tutorial wouldn't be amiss.

I agree with that. Just a quick tutorial showing how to find the first jellynut/yakamota trees would've saved me tons of time (I eventually gave up and had to find online resource that explained the colorization on the map view to find those first trees).

[knighttemplar1960]

Цитата допису Fletch:

Sound to me like Gleba wrecked their brains so much that they want nothing to do with Factorio anymore, including with even Vanilla playthroughs without spoilage (that's a rage quit). Nothing wrong with playing other games and coming back to Factorio later -- I do it myself (I've been on my Kenshi kick recently).

Anyhow, for you: if the spoilage concept is too boring and easy, take a serious look at that RottenWorld mod. It brings that Gleba/spoilage concept to anything and everything that can be stored in your inventory or on a belt (essentially the "everything spoils!" wish mod idea I talked about in these forums before SA was released). With that mod, literally everything starts to spoil as soon as it is created. Even a blueprint in your inventory will spoil :) Item spoilage rate is based on the item's weight (lightweight items spoil faster than heavier items). There are mod options to control spoilage rates.

Their brains work just fine. We are all still playing Valheim and Civ V together. They weren't mad. They were just done. The fun was gone. We ran into the same thing with Civ VI. They didn't like the mechanics and we went back to V. We tried Humankind and it was the worst parts of Civ VI plus a few other bad designs and we went back to Civ V again. Same with Civ VII. Its horrible and we went back to Civ V again and we are hoping they fix all the issues with VII in the first DLC but that's unlikely. They might be able to fix the UI but they spent too much an the art to fix leader interactions and the AI is just as bad as it has been for the last 2 versions even thought they could have just swiped the community made patch that fixed the AI for V.

Spoilage seems to be very much an Earendel idea (like robot attrition). Spoilage was both boring and easy, making it more complex with rottenworld makes it harder and more boring. Wasting time that could be better spent doing other things that are fun. I'm disabled. I play slowly not because I want to but because I have no choice. That's why the only 2 achievements I lacked from 1.1 were the speed run ones.

Setting up Gleba was a speed run challenge that I couldn't complete on my own because of the spoilage timers. I had to sit down and use an editor to design blue prints that went into my book for the live world. As I got things crafted my construction bots that I brought with me on my platform built the BPs.

Then I added logic circuits and made the entire planet on demand and all I produce there are the planet specific resources.

My teammates will eventually get bored of Valheim again and I'm pretty sure I can coax them back if we use infinity chests to produce Gleba only products and skip the planet. Though I suspect they we will have a similar problem with Aquillo and the heat pipes and they probably won't want to mess with it or maybe they'll just want to use my Aquillo BPs instead of designing their own. I do know they will like designing a shattered planet space platform.

Knowing my teammates, the real problem with Gleba and the problem they will have with Aquillo is the lack of flexibility. The spoilage timer on Gleba constrains things in ways they (and I) don't like. The lack of flexibility due to the heat pipes will be the same for them on Aquillo.

[Hurkyl]

Цитата допису knighttemplar1960:

Setting up Gleba was a speed run challenge that I couldn't complete on my own because of the spoilage timers. I had to sit down and use an editor to design blue prints that went into my book for the live world. As I got things crafted my construction bots that I brought with me on my platform built the BPs.

(the reader should note that there was a misunderstanding involved that prevented the use of agricultural towers until after a fair amount of research -- so while this did impact kt's playthrough, it's not representative of the general experience, even for someone who plays slowly)

[knighttemplar1960]

Цитата допису Hurkyl:

Цитата допису knighttemplar1960:

Setting up Gleba was a speed run challenge that I couldn't complete on my own because of the spoilage timers. I had to sit down and use an editor to design blue prints that went into my book for the live world. As I got things crafted my construction bots that I brought with me on my platform built the BPs.

(the reader should note that there was a misunderstanding involved that prevented the use of agricultural towers until after a fair amount of research -- so while this did impact kt's playthrough, it's not representative of the general experience, even for someone who plays slowly)

Didn't make any real difference. I just kept reloading previous saves. That issue caused 3 additional reloads which didn't affect progress just cost me 3 hours of my time.

[Vovarush]

Цитата допису knighttemplar1960:

Цитата допису Hurkyl:

(the reader should note that there was a misunderstanding involved that prevented the use of agricultural towers until after a fair amount of research -- so while this did impact kt's playthrough, it's not representative of the general experience, even for someone who plays slowly)

Didn't make any real difference. I just kept reloading previous saves. That issue caused 3 additional reloads which didn't affect progress just cost me 3 hours of my time.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3455365101
Tell me with a straight face that this was blueprinted. It took me 45 minutes on my first run to spagetti my way through main processing chain and 20 more for metals. You cant adapt on the fly and your description of what happened when you were building tells me you dont understand what exactly gleba demands from you - dont try to store things. In my case i handcrafted 10 biolabs, built fruit - processing - flux - nutrients and only after that turn everything on instead of trying to make half a process work.

[Fletch]

Цитата допису knighttemplar1960:

<snip>

I do get that you had the "speed-run" vibes when first trying out Gleba (I did too, and I'm sure most do as well) -- biological items have a literal clock that is ticking down and gives a sense of time pressure and "do more faster!!". Now that you grok Gleba, I bet you could rebuild the base (from nothing) and have zero time pressures. There really isn't a time pressure (that's artificial / psychological -- the resources are infinite).

The joy for me on Gleba is that it was NEW and exciting. The spoilage mechanic is the one new feature that I was most excited about -- and the devs spent a lot of design time to have recipes that allow you to "bootstrap" the biological part of your factory from non-biological parts. It is quite brilliant and deep for those that want to take it down to that level.

Most people are likely just hand-crafting the startup ingredients and hand inserting them into biolabs -- and when they get science working they fly the hell out of there and never want to go back :) But: you can automate the bootstrapping process with non-biologics. Small amount of non-biological electricity (the "blackout proof solar" thing that @Chindraba enlightened me with) + a couple of assemblers + a chest of spoilage. There is more depth on Gleba for those that want to go that deep.

For me: Volcanus is the easy/boring planet ;), but I do enjoy them all for the differences and challenges they bring.

[knighttemplar1960]

Цитата допису Vovarush:

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3455365101
Tell me with a straight face that this was blueprinted. It took me 45 minutes on my first run to spagetti my way through main processing chain and 20 more for metals. You cant adapt on the fly and your description of what happened when you were building tells me you dont understand what exactly gleba demands from you - dont try to store things. In my case i handcrafted 10 biolabs, built fruit - processing - flux - nutrients and only after that turn everything on instead of trying to make half a process work.

I have poor motor control from a stroke. What you have there would have taken me at least 3 hours to set out by hand. More since my vision is poor and the graphics on Gleba are too busy and the colors on the minimap too bright. Paving the planet helped but its the only planet I've been compelled to pave just so I could see what I was doing.

Nutrient spoil time was always the problem for me. By the time I got something designed and laid out all my nutrients had spoiled and I had to restart from nutrients made from spoilage in an assembly machine. That usually meant going and gathering another batch of each fruit.

I started with a tiny set up that produced bio chambers and expanded into egg production. Each time I tried a new set up I had to reload the previous save until I got a set up that worked the way I wanted it to. Then to eliminate the time I wasted designing and testing I blue printed what worked and reloaded my previous save, dropped the print and let my bots build it as I produced more biochambers.

When I got tired of saving and reloading I said enough and opened an editor and designed and tested all the set ups I was going to use on Gleba in sections, blue printed them, stuck them in my book, and reloaded my save.

When I got enough biochambers built I'd drop the next blue print I needed, let my bots build it, and turn it on. Once I got the entire factory built I turned the planet off added logic to make the planet kick start, burst produce, and shut down. I have dedicated platforms. One for ag science, one for bioflux, and one for carbon fiber. When the platform arrives the part of the planet required turns on until the request is filled and then turns back off again.

Left the planet. Entire challenge finished, no reason to return, no reason to upgrade, no reason to optimize. I've yet to get to a point where the planet will turn on and stay on and if it ever gets to that point I would just build a duplicate of everything.

Цитата допису Fletch:

I do get that you had the "speed-run" vibes when first trying out Gleba (I did too, and I'm sure most do as well) -- biological items have a literal clock that is ticking down and gives a sense of time pressure and "do more faster!!". Now that you grok Gleba, I bet you could rebuild the base (from nothing) and have zero time pressures. There really isn't a time pressure (that's artificial / psychological -- the resources are infinite).

The joy for me on Gleba is that it was NEW and exciting. The spoilage mechanic is the one new feature that I was most excited about -- and the devs spent a lot of design time to have recipes that allow you to "bootstrap" the biological part of your factory from non-biological parts. It is quite brilliant and deep for those that want to take it down to that level.

It did feel like a speed run I couldn't do, worse it was a speed run I didn't want to do. I don't have to rebuild Gleba from scratch and I wouldn't want to. I have all my blue prints, the puzzle is solved, on subsequent play throughs Gleba would never be my first planet after Nauvis so bots, blue prints, and imports. Only there for the time it takes to set up and build what is needed to get it set up. Resources on Fulgora and Vulcanus are infinite too and there is no artificial timer ticking. Heck for all practical purposes resources on Nauvis are infinite. More ore in the patches than I could ever use so infinite resources aren't a compelling argument.

For me Gleba wasn't new or exciting. It reused previous mechanics. I all ready knew how to sort out spoilage from having separated mixed start patch resources on Nauvis. Fulgora took that to a higher level so nothing new and no challenge with that. The new thing was the annoying ticking spoilage timer.

The biological part? To put it in Nauvis terms the biochamber is just an assembler that gets fed coal instead of using electricity in addition to other inputs, aka burner technology. Add a fuel belt or a fuel requester chest and done. The new thing is still the annoying ticking spoilage timer.

I saw 2 ways to solve that. Brute force it by over producing and just burning copious spoilage essentially something all ready learned accidentally on Nauvis just by over building or use the circuit network and finesse it. Something I had all ready learned to do on Nauvis with trains, Kovarex, and advanced oil processing. I chose the later.