Is factorio NON-DLC easier since version 2?

[DoopForces]

I am on Factorio 2.0.23 (current), and I do NOT have the DLC space-age.
I see the game changed since versions 1.x even without DLC - research tree.

Is it easier to complete basic Factorio (non-DLC) now in version 2 compared to last stable of 1.x ? If yes than how big is the difference?

[Chindraba]

Yes, it is a bit easier. The difference is not much, however. The biggest change is the rocket part recipe uses processing units, blue chips, instead of the rocket control units. One entire less factory to build. The rest of the stuff is just little things which add up.

Remote view, what used to be called Map view, is much more useful. You can change settings on combinators, set recipes for machines and switch out modules, if you have bots in the area, and even change wire connections, without having to go there just to "reach" it. You also don't have to make the red/green wires anymore, they just exist as a tool. Same for the copper wire on power poles. The copper cable used as ingredient in other things, like green circuits, is still something you have to make, however.

Filter inserters, purple and white, are gone, but all inserters now can have filters. The functionality is the same but two less styles to make, and worry about keeping in-stock for building. The bots behave better and trains have better controls, so things can run a bit smoother. If you do circuits then they got a bit better, plus the new selector combinator can make new designs so much smaller.

Many of the buildings which used to be non-flipping, like chemical plants and refineries, are able to be flipped now. Makes for some interesting new, easier to build, designs, but the processing of the oil products is still the same concept, just easier pipe layouts.

Fluids are much less of a headache, but the flow rate of pumps is reduced. There's much to learn about for changing old habits here, but it's overall easier a bit.

The hardest part about it being easier is breaking some of the old habits.

Edit: Speaking of habits, there's a change to the space science process which has confused many experienced players. The science no longer shows up in the silo. Rather you have to build a second thing, a landing pad, and the space science 'lands' there. The inserter pulling out of the silo will, instead, pull out the satellite as fast as you can put it in and the rocket won't 'auto launch with cargo' because there is no cargo.

That makes one other thing easier - all the space science will end up in the same place instead of having to collect it from each silo - if you make several.

[malogoss]

I don't think anyone would say non-DLC got more difficult, that's for sure.

One could say it got a bit easier, because of many small reasons. RCU gone, better bots behavior, combinators reworked, all inserters can filter, new fluids system, and the list goes on.

But depending on your play style, you could end up not really feeling any of these changes. Or it could be that the new fuilds system, for example, will make a real difference for you.

Easier as in a "runs smoother" way, mostly.

[^4Steel ^1Jackal^2~FYANB~]

in addition to what the others have said ill make this note: the win condition has changed from "launch a rocket" to "complete a research using space science"
the game is a little simpler, but speedruns are actually about an hour longer than they used to be, so "there is no spoon" is remarkably harder to get

[Chindraba]

Originally posted by ^4Steel ^1Jackal^2~FYANB~:

in addition to what the others have said ill make this note: the win condition has changed to "complete a research using space science" instead of "launch a rocket."
the game is a little simpler, but speedruns are actually about an hour longer than they used to be, so "there is no spoon" is remarkably harder to get

I'm not sure, and haven't cared enough to check, but I'm wondering if the longer speedrun times is because all their fancy, hyper optimized and completely memorized, blueprints are now worthless. Now, like the rest of us mortals, they have to figure out how to do things all over again. I've seen nothing in the game so far which would make it take much longer, if at all. You do have to actually research electric drills, which means making more science early, before you can make them now. In short their 'perfect' routine ain't so perfect no more. Give it a few months and the new perfect will be found.

[Chindraba]

Originally posted by ^4Steel ^1Jackal^2~FYANB~:

in addition to what the others have said ill make this note: the win condition has changed from "launch a rocket" to "complete a research using space science"

Are you sure, and do you have a source? My in-game achievement list, non-DLC, still says Launch a rocket to space as the condition for Smoke me a kipper.

[^4Steel ^1Jackal^2~FYANB~]

Originally posted by Chindraba:

Originally posted by ^4Steel ^1Jackal^2~FYANB~:

in addition to what the others have said ill make this note: the win condition has changed to "complete a research using space science" instead of "launch a rocket."
the game is a little simpler, but speedruns are actually about an hour longer than they used to be, so "there is no spoon" is remarkably harder to get

I'm not sure, and haven't cared enough to check, but I'm wondering if the longer speedrun times is because all their fancy, hyper optimized and completely memorized, blueprints are now worthless. Now, like the rest of us mortals, they have to figure out how to do things all over again. I've seen nothing in the game so far which would make it take much longer, if at all. You do have to actually research electric drills, which means making more science early, before you can make them now. In short their 'perfect' routine ain't so perfect no more. Give it a few months and the new perfect will be found.

thats definitely a possibility. i was thinking about it from my perspective as someone who only tried speedrunning for the achievement. its another research that you have to do which means thats extra time required to complete the game, and since it requires the rocket i just saw it as extra time taken after launching it.

[malogoss]

Originally posted by ^4Steel ^1Jackal^2~FYANB~:

in addition to what the others have said ill make this note: the win condition has changed from "launch a rocket" to "complete a research using space science"
the game is a little simpler, but speedruns are actually about an hour longer than they used to be, so "there is no spoon" is remarkably harder to get

I'm afraid you'll have to provide evidence, because looking at speedrun leaderboards in the any% category, the best time for 2.0.x, out of the only 4 entries at this point, is already less than 60 minute from the best 1.1 speedrun ever recorded, a speedrun that elite speedrunners ran and optimised for years.

In fact, the current best 2.0 time was achieved by someone who also has a time on the 1.1 leaderboards, and for that person the time difference is roughly 30 minute. And you can bet they have tried the 1.1 run 100's of times, and 2.0 only a few times.

The 2.0 non-DLC speedrunning scene is pretty much dead anyway, with only 4 time entries in nearly 2 months. On Twitch, for example, you could find people doing runs on any given day, in many speedrun categories. Now absolutely nobody's doing 2.0 runs. At best you'll find someone planning/training for a SA run, but nobody even submitted an official time yet.

The "There is no spoon" achievement is still worded exactly as it was 2 months ago, so there's that too. (I know of at least one old achievement that was reworded and slightly changed, but not TINS)

If you have links to serious 2.0 speedrunners recent videos, or links to leaderboards other than the speedrun.com ones I mentioned, know that I'd be interested to look into those. I'm not a speedrunner myself, but I follow the speedrunning scene with great interest. And there's not much to follow right now.

[^4Steel ^1Jackal^2~FYANB~]

Originally posted by malogoss:

Originally posted by ^4Steel ^1Jackal^2~FYANB~:

in addition to what the others have said ill make this note: the win condition has changed from "launch a rocket" to "complete a research using space science"
the game is a little simpler, but speedruns are actually about an hour longer than they used to be, so "there is no spoon" is remarkably harder to get

I'm afraid you'll have to provide evidence, because looking at speedrun leaderboards in the any% category, the best time for 2.0.x, out of the only 4 entries at this point, is already less than 60 minute from the best 1.1 speedrun ever recorded, a speedrun that elite speedrunners ran and optimised for years.

that was my evidence. that, and the fact that it also took me about an hour longer to complete it myself when i was trying to figure out why logistic network embargo was un-achieving itself in game.

i just figured oh, it now takes about an hour longer to beat the game due to the additional research requirement.

but yeah your probably right that the sample size is too low right now to make any valid claims about it.

[GarbageCollector]

Not needing either yellow or purple for the silo feels like a pretty massive buff, personally. I haven't tried a proper There is No Spoon run yet since 2.0, but just playing casually to check out the DLC getting to the first rocket launch itself felt way easier to me even after a hiatus of over a year.

[malogoss]

Originally posted by GarbageCollector:

Not needing either yellow or purple for the silo feels like a pretty massive buff, personally. I haven't tried a proper There is No Spoon run yet since 2.0, but just playing casually to check out the DLC getting to the first rocket launch itself felt way easier to me even after a hiatus of over a year.

You are not wrong, but we're talking about non DLC runs, those still require yellow and purple.

[malogoss]

Originally posted by ^4Steel ^1Jackal^2~FYANB~:

that was my evidence. that, and the fact that it also took me about an hour longer to complete it myself when i was trying to figure out why logistic network embargo was un-achieving itself in game.

I see. That achievement is needed for 100% runs. Any% is a simple rocket launch. There is no spoon is the same in all cases.

I assume official 100% runs, non-SA, are now simply impossible? The DLC added a lot of achievements, they are visible for players who did not buy SA. Can't even 100% the game without SA.

[^4Steel ^1Jackal^2~FYANB~]

Originally posted by malogoss:

I see. That achievement is needed for 100% runs. Any% is a simple rocket launch. There is no spoon is the same in all cases.

see thats interesting, i thought the any% was to get the victory screen- which previously WAS the rocket launch, but its now research with space science

Originally posted by malogoss:

I assume official 100% runs, non-SA, are now simply impossible? The DLC added a lot of achievements, they are visible for players who did not buy SA. Can't even 100% the game without SA.

this is something i really wish steam would change. it would be great if achievements that required dlc would be in a separate list from those that dont.
there have been a few games i really liked and wanted to 100%, but they got a dlc i have no interest in and now i cant get all the achievements.

[malogoss]

Originally posted by ^4Steel ^1Jackal^2~FYANB~:

see thats interesting, i thought the any% was to get the victory screen- which previously WAS the rocket launch, but its now research with space science

wiki.factorio.com/Rocket_silo

Just so you know, I have not played a non SA game in 2.0.

That said, according to the wiki which looks up to date, the win condition is the same, it is not required that the player researches any space tech. All you need is to launch a rocket, as before, and you get a win screen.

What changed is that the rocket now can't be launched without a payload. That payload can only be 1 of 2 things, either a satellite or a fish. And you can't launch without a cargo landing pad built.

Obviously, a fish is the best option for a fast win. No additional tech required, compared to the expensive satellite tech. The cargo landing pad is very cheap to craft. Eliminating RCU's from the game saves you more resources than what is required for the landing pad.

And that's it. On paper, a non DLC any% run would be as fast if not a bit faster than it was before, for the same execution level.

[^4Steel ^1Jackal^2~FYANB~]

ok so im just realizing something, "there is no spoon" has the completion condition of launch the rocket. thats separate from the win condition of the game.

i THOUGHT the win condition of the game was changed due to how the description for logistic network embargo was changed, so that probably contributed to my confusion.

i actually did do a vanilla 2.0 run a few weeks ago while trying to figure out logistics network embargo since it seems to be bugged, and i could have sworn i got the victory screen after completing the research, but now i dont get it when loading the save just before it completes. i must have remembered incorrectly.

my whole point originally was that i believed that achievement would be harder to get now, but i suppose thats just plainly not true since its not actually tied to the victory condition.


so everything ive said about that is just completely irrelevant.

[Khagan]

Originally posted by Chindraba:

That makes one other thing easier - all the space science will end up in the same place instead of having to collect it from each silo - if you make several.

1. That is irrelevant for the win condition. It only affects the infinite game.
2. Whether it makes the infinite game easier or harder depends on your play style. It completely breaks my preferred method of having multiple independent, self-contained science factories.