Question About Crafting Times

[Darthclimo]

Let 's use Green Science as an example. Hovering over the Green Science beaker in the crafting menu, it takes 6 seconds to craft by hand. I build one manually and sure enough it takes 6 seconds. Now, I hover over the Green Science beaker in the Lvl 1 Assembly Machine: 6 seconds. However, this is incorrect. It takes over 10 seconds for the Assembly Machine to build one Green Science. What the F is going on here? My factory is fully powered and indeed supplied with Belts and Inserters. I can't figure this out for the life of me and it's frustrating.

[knighttemplar1960]

Publicado originalmente por Chindraba:

Publicado originalmente por knighttemplar1960:

For you perhaps. Hand placing and removing is a problem for me. I actually do use filtered decon planners in concert with upgrade planners for subfactories that are meant to be permanent.

Please, then, enlighten me. I have a common case in nearly every early build. I make one wire machine feed green circuit machine. I make a group of 8 pairs. Initially both machines are ASM-1 and all inserters are yellow. Once I have the chance I change the wire machines to ASM-2 and the 2 yellow inserters feeding them to a single blue.

Using the upgrade planner I have to "target" each of the wire machines carefully or the GC also gets updated. To 'upgrade' the inserters I have to first delete one of each pair of yellow with the decon planner and then upgrade the remaining one with the upgrade planner. Targeting each inserter is not exactly an easy process, yet anything I design which can be done with dragging ends up being better to just decon the whole thing and place a new print.

My targeting is only slightly better than yours, so please tell me how to make the decon planner only get half of the yellow inserters or how to make the upgrade planner only upgrade the wire ASM-1s and ignore the GC ASM-1s.

If this request doesn't make sense, you can always read, again, that to which you replied.

The upgrade planner upgrades the assemblers in the planner. The upgrade planner also upgrades the yellow inserters I'm going to keep to blue and then the yellow inserters left over are the ones the decon planner filters out and removes.

Over all of that though, since blue inserters become available very early in the game Any blue print that might require an upgrade from yellow to blue I just start out as blue.

Or the set up is designed as a early game set up that is supposed to obsolete. Like my start up green circuit set up. Its 6 wire machines and 4 circuit machines and all its supposed to do is feed my start up inserter, electric miner, and assembly machine production with surplus that make it to the end of the belt for hand crafting things I don't use many of.

Once I get my mid game circuit production set up I disconnect the start up set up from resources and just let it sit until I have bots to deconstruct it with.

Mid game set ups go away in a similar fashion. Once I have my first green circuit subfactory made that uses beacons and modules and my trains are moving those circuits to the main assembly area the non-beaconed set up gets deconstructed by bot.

With Space Age I've added another late game subfactory blue print to the book that uses beacons, modules, and electromagnetic plants for green circuits. I get to reuse the train stations and junctions just have to swap out the guts since the electromag plant is 4x4 and the assembler III is 3x3.

[Hurkyl]

Publicado originalmente por kremlin:

Publicado originalmente por Chindraba:

Please, then, enlighten me. I have a common case in nearly every early build. I make one wire machine feed green circuit machine. I make a group of 8 pairs. Initially both machines are ASM-1 and all inserters are yellow. Once I have the chance I change the wire machines to ASM-2 and the 2 yellow inserters feeding them to a single blue.

I would wonder if the second yellow inserter is actually necessary. do you really need it before you would be upgrading to a blue inserter? if you're using the correct ratio of three wire assemblers to two circuit assemblers.

A yellow inserter moves 50 items per minute. Assembler 1 making copper cable at full throughput can process 60 copper plates into 120 copper cable per minute. The one making green circuits can eat up 180 copper cable per minute.

[Anna]

Publicado originalmente por Chindraba:

Please, then, enlighten me. I have a common case in nearly every early build. I make one wire machine feed green circuit machine. I make a group of 8 pairs. Initially both machines are ASM-1 and all inserters are yellow. Once I have the chance I change the wire machines to ASM-2 and the 2 yellow inserters feeding them to a single blue.

Why not just upgrade them all to blue and call it a day? The only truly limiting factor in Factorio is your personal time; everything else is more or less infinite.

You could spend the same amount of time placing a new power station, rather than manually clicking, to compensate for the tiny drain caused by extra inserters and still end up with a bigger factory by the end of the day.

If you can’t play without the factory being perfect, I suggest designing a blueprint that represents exactly one of your "modules," but replace an inserter that needs to be removed with a useless item, such as a wooden post or any other item you’re not currently using.

Use Ctrl+Shift to place this blueprint on top of the existing modules to mark the inserters to be removed. Then, use a deconstruction planner on the upgraded area to remove the wooden post ghosts. It could upgrade at the same time and may save you some clicks.

[kremlin]

Publicado originalmente por Hurkyl:

Publicado originalmente por kremlin:

I would wonder if the second yellow inserter is actually necessary. do you really need it before you would be upgrading to a blue inserter? if you're using the correct ratio of three wire assemblers to two circuit assemblers.

A yellow inserter moves 50 items per minute. Assembler 1 making copper cable at full throughput can process 60 copper plates into 120 copper cable per minute. The one making green circuits can eat up 180 copper cable per minute.

Which means one assembler making wire does not fully feed one assembler making green circuits, so his ratios are off if he's doing pairs of a wire and a circuit assembler, adding a second yellow inserter won't make the difference.

[Hurkyl]

Publicado originalmente por kremlin:

Publicado originalmente por Hurkyl:

A yellow inserter moves 50 items per minute. Assembler 1 making copper cable at full throughput can process 60 copper plates into 120 copper cable per minute. The one making green circuits can eat up 180 copper cable per minute.

Which means one assembler making wire does not fully feed one assembler making green circuits, so his ratios are off if he's doing pairs of a wire and a circuit assembler, adding a second yellow inserter won't make the difference.

The throughput between the cable maker and the circuit maker is specifically the limiting factor in the setup. The second inserter doubles the throughput of the arrangement.

Note that even the three cable to 2 circuit ratio will still want two output yellow inserters per cable maker (and each circuit maker can take three input yellow inserters). And will still only be running at 83% of the potential throughput of the assembling machine 1's involved.

[Evilsod]

Publicado originalmente por Anna:

Use Ctrl+Shift to place this blueprint on top of the existing modules to mark the inserters to be removed. Then, use a deconstruction planner on the upgraded area to remove the wooden post ghosts. It could upgrade at the same time and may save you some clicks.

Unlike Satisfactory, which treats blueprints as a "group", allowing you to deconstruct the blueprint as one, blueprints in Factorio have no such designation. That is about the only way you could upgrade the blueprint in a single click, (adding/changing/removing as necessary) and afaik, the functionality doesn't exist in this game.

TLDR is, don't try and use upgrade planners for things they can't do...
Depends what you're changing, but there is always a way to go about it using a combination of blueprints, upgrades and deconstruction.

[Chindraba]

Publicado originalmente por kremlin:

Publicado originalmente por Chindraba:

Please, then, enlighten me. I have a common case in nearly every early build. I make one wire machine feed green circuit machine. I make a group of 8 pairs. Initially both machines are ASM-1 and all inserters are yellow. Once I have the chance I change the wire machines to ASM-2 and the 2 yellow inserters feeding them to a single blue.

I would wonder if the second yellow inserter is actually necessary. do you really need it before you would be upgrading to a blue inserter? if you're using the correct ratio of three wire assemblers to two circuit assemblers.

When built the ratio is off. Using the pair of yellow inserters will allow the single wire ASM to run at full capacity and let the GC run as good as it can with that input. At the time of the upgrade to a blue inserter it is also an upgrade, on the wire machine only, to ASM-2. Now the wire to GC ratio is perfect, if the wire machine can get the copper fast enough and the two yellows won't meet that need.

The original build is enough to make it work. The upgrades, once available, are to make it right.

[Chindraba]

Publicado originalmente por Anna:

Publicado originalmente por Chindraba:

Please, then, enlighten me. I have a common case in nearly every early build. I make one wire machine feed green circuit machine. I make a group of 8 pairs. Initially both machines are ASM-1 and all inserters are yellow. Once I have the chance I change the wire machines to ASM-2 and the 2 yellow inserters feeding them to a single blue.

Why not just upgrade them all to blue and call it a day? The only truly limiting factor in Factorio is your personal time; everything else is more or less infinite.

You could spend the same amount of time placing a new power station, rather than manually clicking, to compensate for the tiny drain caused by extra inserters and still end up with a bigger factory by the end of the day.

If you can’t play without the factory being perfect, I suggest designing a blueprint that represents exactly one of your "modules," but replace an inserter that needs to be removed with a useless item, such as a wooden post or any other item you’re not currently using.

Use Ctrl+Shift to place this blueprint on top of the existing modules to mark the inserters to be removed. Then, use a deconstruction planner on the upgraded area to remove the wooden post ghosts. It could upgrade at the same time and may save you some clicks.

A point perhaps missed is that it's first built with assembling machine 1 and yellow inserters and then upgraded to some blue inserters and some assembling machine 2. The missed subtext there is 'early game'. In early game the iron is not unlimited to make new blue inserters when I can use yellow or to make a new power station, at 31 iron just for one more 900 kW steam engine.

That particular example aside, however, the same type of situation occurs when trying to do many kinds of upgrades. Even making staged blueprints gets complicated when you have to modify existing layouts to make the next level work. Often it results in 'instructions' in a later stage print to 'remove x, y and z then place this print' I have not worked on staged prints with the super force building option yet. That may reduce much of the work. For example, when adding a new section there can be the need to place a splitter in an existing belt segment. 1.1 requires you to remove that one piece of belt prior to placement of the print with the splitter in it. Super force building, however, should make it possible to just add the splitter while it automatically removes the offending belt piece. I'm still learning 2.0, so there's much to discover.

[Hurkyl]

There's also another coincidence that the 1:1 ratio is almost exact when you upgrade both to asm 2 and use prod 1 modules for the circuits and speed 1 modules for the cables.

[Chindraba]

Publicado originalmente por Hurkyl:

There's also another coincidence that the 1:1 ratio is almost exact when you upgrade both to asm 2 and use prod modules for the circuits and speed modules for the cables.

There were many, in my case odd, combinations where the ratio works almost perfect with beacons, modules ASM-2 and ASM-3 or all ASM-3. I think, however, that I'll have to rework many of them as the beacon math is now quite different. (Odd might include 6 beacons on the GC and 8 on the wire - just as an unrecalled example of odd, not necessarily one I remember making.) Non-standard is often my standard.

[knighttemplar1960]

Publicado originalmente por Chindraba:

Super force building, however, should make it possible to just add the splitter while it automatically removes the offending belt piece. I'm still learning 2.0, so there's much to discover.

Super force building does do that and does it well, though it doesn't remove the redundant inserters. You still need a filtered decon planner for that. Cuts down on the number of staged blue prints required though. Eventually I'll have to take the time to go through my blue print book and discard all the obsolete ones.