A funni observation in fluid wagons

[Chuck]

I was looking at some recipes, and my math and logic could be wrong, but just looking at it on a notepad, i think melting ore and transporting it by fluid wagon could be much better than shipping raw ore. Its definitely something I want to test.

Theoretically, you could import calcite and foundries to nauvis, bring calcite with the train going to a mine, and melt the ore into a fluid, and transport the molten fluid back to the depot. One molten ore wagon is much more ore than a regular cargo wagon.
--------
SOLID ORE CARGO:
Cargo wagon capacity : 40 stacks
Copper/iron stack: 50 ore
Total ore in cargo wagon: 2000
1 ore = 1 plate
total plates from one cargo wagon of ore: 2000
--------
MOLTEN ORE CARGO:
fluid wagon capacity: 50k fluid
50 ore (+1 calcite) = 500 molten copper
1 ore = 10 molten ore = 1 plate
ore required to fill 1 fluid wagon: 5000 ore (+100 calcite, 2 stacks, 1/5th of rocket capacity)
Total plates from one molten ore wagon: 5000
------
2.5x more plates from one wagon. This also doesnt account for the +50% productivity of foundries. The amount of plates you can bring back worth of ore is higher than 2.5x. Not to mention the unloading and loading speed from being able to pump out molten ingredients. The only disadvantage is having to import calcite, and you would need quite a lot of it. 100 (2 stacks) calcite to fill 1 fluid wagon. One cargo wagon of calcite is enough for 20 fluid tanks of ore. One rocket of calcite is enough for 5 fluid wagons. This is a pretty tough requirement, but for how much extra cargo it gives your trains, it *might* be better, if you can get a good rocket launching setup on vulcanus and a fast platform. I think some testing is required. It would be hard to scale though, every extra mine requires an extra set of calicte that you would need to bring, which means extra waiting time over vulcanus to get the calcite up there.

[Riyshn]

I can't think of a time you'd need calcite in quantities that would justify actually shipping it in from Volcanus, when you can easilly just make a satelite to drop some down from orbit; it won't be especially fast, but calcite is used in such small amounts that it's hard to imagine one or two platforms dedicated to that couldn't keep up.

[Chuck]

Originally posted by Riyshn:

I can't think of a time you'd need calcite in quantities that would justify actually shipping it in from Volcanus, when you can easilly just make a satelite to drop some down from orbit; it won't be especially fast, but calcite is used in such small amounts that it's hard to imagine one or two platforms dedicated to that couldn't keep up.

you do need calcite for cliff explosives. Its more dense to ship in calcite and make cliff explosives than it is to just ship the explosives. So ill already have some calcite coming in. And the ship i built for logistics between vulcanus and nauvis has a pretty good amount of cargo. I could carry several thousand calcite at once. And being able to cast low density structures, sulfuric acid being readily available on vulcanus, and oil not being that much of a concern, I could probably keep up a good launching speed to load the ship.

When i started doing the math and looking into this i thought it was kind of a meme but the more i look into it the more I realize it might actually be viable.

[Vertex]

Foundries have 50% prod bonus, 1 ore = 15 molten metal and 10 molten metal = 1.5 plates, which is 2.25 plates from 1 ore.

So 50k molten metal = 7500 plates.

1 cargo wagon can haul only 4000 plates, so you should replace both ore trains and plate trains with molten metal trains. Also this would eliminate the need for steel plate trains, since you can cast them from molten metal too (30 metal to 1.5 steel plates).

(not factoring that foundries have more module slots than a furnace and can accept productivity modules on both smelting and casting recipies)

[Chuck]

I forgot steel plates are casted too, I just got back from vulcanus and finally got automated logistics up between nauvis and vulcanus for drills, foundries, calcite, and research. Theres a juicy copper mine im gonna try this out on. Lifes good .

[RiO]

Originally posted by Chuck:

Originally posted by Riyshn:

I can't think of a time you'd need calcite in quantities that would justify actually shipping it in from Volcanus, when you can easilly just make a satelite to drop some down from orbit; it won't be especially fast, but calcite is used in such small amounts that it's hard to imagine one or two platforms dedicated to that couldn't keep up.

you do need calcite for cliff explosives. Its more dense to ship in calcite and make cliff explosives than it is to just ship the explosives. So ill already have some calcite coming in. And the ship i built for logistics between vulcanus and nauvis has a pretty good amount of cargo. I could carry several thousand calcite at once. And being able to cast low density structures, sulfuric acid being readily available on vulcanus, and oil not being that much of a concern, I could probably keep up a good launching speed to load the ship.

When i started doing the math and looking into this i thought it was kind of a meme but the more i look into it the more I realize it might actually be viable.

You can make cliff explosives purely from asteroid components.
And you only need them when expanding and building out.

So actually, realistically, the best choice is to make a small production platform dedicated to fabricating cliff explosives in space. And then just drop-podding them to whatever planet you have it stationed at when you're working there.

[Chindraba]

Originally posted by Chuck:

I forgot steel plates are casted too, I just got back from vulcanus and finally got automated logistics up between nauvis and vulcanus for drills, foundries, calcite, and research. Theres a juicy copper mine im gonna try this out on. Lifes good .

You've discovered one of the hidden gems which makes this game so addicting. By adding a new logistics puzzle to solve (supply of calcite) you can make a different logistics chain even better (iron/copper/steel production).

"Nobody can solve just one," and "Only one more" seem to define the rabbit hole we keep digging. And, in the end, many of us also have to admit "I'm late. I'm late for a very important date."

[Ghulmeister]

im just shpping the calcite in alongside the vulcanus science and tungsten-steel on the same platform. ezpz.

not only is molten metal train-transport in general much easier and denser, it is also way easier to load/unload your wagons without needing arrays of chests or belts.
honestly, molten iron and copper have completely changed the game for me, its great ^^

[Marosh]

Originally posted by Chuck:

Theoretically, you could import calcite and foundries to nauvis, bring calcite with the train going to a mine, and melt the ore into a fluid, and transport the molten fluid back to the depot. One molten ore wagon is much more ore than a regular cargo wagon.

That works up to very late game. A fluid wagon can load with a speed of 9k fluids max., so 3 legendary pumps per fluid wagon. That are 900 "plates" per second.

With high mining productivity, legendary beacons, speed modules and big drills, 2 drill mines outpaces three pumps worth of plates when direcly inserted into a cargo wagon by a lot.

But that is an issue only a few will have.

[Chindraba]

Originally posted by Marosh:

Originally posted by Chuck:

Theoretically, you could import calcite and foundries to nauvis, bring calcite with the train going to a mine, and melt the ore into a fluid, and transport the molten fluid back to the depot. One molten ore wagon is much more ore than a regular cargo wagon.

That works up to very late game. A fluid wagon can load with a speed of 9k fluids max., so 3 legendary pumps per fluid wagon. That are 900 "plates" per second.

With high mining productivity, legendary beacons, speed modules and big drills, 2 drill mines outpaces three pumps worth of plates when direcly inserted into a cargo wagon by a lot.

But that is an issue only a few will have.

The drills are able to fill the wagon faster but then you have to move the wagons faster to keep up and the 'faster' has to be even faster than the speed from the pumps on 1 wagon. The miners can still only get the 4000 ore into the wagon and then it has to be gotten out, smelted, and reloaded for the next phase. The inserters, and maybe the belts, become the bottleneck. Even the turbo belts with stacks can only reach 240/sec, each, and I don't know how many inserters it would take to keep that full. That's still nearly 4.5 sec/wagon to unload the plates.

[Chuck]

Originally posted by Marosh:

That works up to very late game.
...
But that is an issue only a few will have.

I mean, yeah, pretty much what you said. Few people will ever get to that point. Because you have to get legendary beacons, drills, modules, etc. Honestly, that sounds like a gigantic pain, and melting them down just seems so much simpler. For 95% of players, melting down ore is going to be the best option between ease of use/efficiency.

[Chuck]

Originally posted by RiO:

You can make cliff explosives purely from asteroid components.
And you only need them when expanding and building out.

I didnt realize that was an option. It requires research that I dont have yet. But when i get it, ive got one platform that basically hovers over nauvis and makes science packs so ill have it make calcite too when i get there.

[RiO]

Originally posted by Chuck:

Originally posted by RiO:

You can make cliff explosives purely from asteroid components.
And you only need them when expanding and building out.

I didnt realize that was an option. It requires research that I dont have yet. But when i get it, ive got one platform that basically hovers over nauvis and makes science packs so ill have it make calcite too when i get there.

I called my explosives platform Cliff Richards.
It makes beautiful music in the only key that matters: B flat

[Marosh]

Originally posted by Chindraba:

Originally posted by Marosh:

That works up to very late game. A fluid wagon can load with a speed of 9k fluids max., so 3 legendary pumps per fluid wagon. That are 900 "plates" per second.

With high mining productivity, legendary beacons, speed modules and big drills, 2 drill mines outpaces three pumps worth of plates when direcly inserted into a cargo wagon by a lot.

But that is an issue only a few will have.

The drills are able to fill the wagon faster but then you have to move the wagons faster to keep up and the 'faster' has to be even faster than the speed from the pumps on 1 wagon. The miners can still only get the 4000 ore into the wagon and then it has to be gotten out, smelted, and reloaded for the next phase. The inserters, and maybe the belts, become the bottleneck. Even the turbo belts with stacks can only reach 240/sec, each, and I don't know how many inserters it would take to keep that full. That's still nearly 4.5 sec/wagon to unload the plates.

The solution is always "more trains" :o) And the train speed with legendary uranium fuel is quite something.
Faster loading means you can distribute more ore from a single ore patch, which are pretty much infininte then. At that points, it's just a matter of spaceing out the factories for better train traffic.

You avoid belts and use direct insertion as much as possible. A singular legendary stack inserter moves 6 swings/s * 16 items = 96 items/s, iirc.

Again, most people will never have this issue. It's a silly problem.

Originally posted by Chuck:

For 95% of players, melting down ore is going to be the best option between ease of use/efficiency.

I would argue 99.9% of the players. The setup is just this absurd. A 1000 SPM Base in 1.0 might be an easier task.

[Chuck]

I wanted to come back to this after trying out the liquid trains thing. Im sure plenty of people tried it but i havent seen anyone else document their experiences with it in practice.

In general, this pretty much took my factory to the next tier. I completely replaced my steel and plates production from furnaces to foundries to process liquids. I only have one furnace stack for plates and steel now, and they arent very large. Going from furnaces to foundries lets me fill a few blue belts completely as i load it onto the bus, although it was a steep power cost, i had to make a second nuclear reactor facility just to meet the power demand. Still worth it though.

And then, it happened. My factory on vulcanus ran out of coal. I had only been using the starter patch which didnt last long at all. This is a problem because with no coal, i cant do coal liquifaction, which means no oil, which means no rocket launching, which means no calcite deliveries, which means 0 production from the home factory. Nauvis ground to a halt. I didnt realize i was using somewhere around 200 calcite a minute for just the 2 mines i have that do this liquid mining strategy. So i had to leave fulgora, which ive been struggling with since the dlc came out, go back to vulcanus, and get a train for coal. I did want to make artillery there anyway, i left before i could take care of that last time, but still, I didnt realize how dependent on interspace logistics this would make my main factory.

So word of caution to anyone wanting to try this. It is wonderful, but be prepared to protect your calcite supply like an addict.

[Lumpous]

Originally posted by Chuck:

[...]
So word of caution to anyone wanting to try this. It is wonderful, but be prepared to protect your calcite supply like an addict.

To counter this i have 4 plattforms ~100 block wide hovering nauvis that provie calcite only.
Nothing more than a small strip with collectors, a bit of solar and the crushers set to only collect ice to make the calcice.
Not very expensive at this stage but until now they can keep up the cost.
In addition: as most might have some automated haulers to travel the other planets and automatically collect stuff from them on that gamestage - mind adding calcite production on them to.