DLC pipes implementation is amazing

[Anna]

A lot of people complain about simplification, but for me it's the most exiting update so far. Sure it simplifies a lot of designs limited by throughput, but the most amazing thing is ability to use the same pipe for multiple liquids.

Every entity that required several pipes now could be connected with a single one using a semi-complex set of combinators and pumps. Not only saving space for the beacons, but also allowing much greater unification of the designs.

Can't wait for the new rails, but designing new pipe systems should be fantastic as well.

[Halko]

You do realize that they are also adding in an even faster belt and allowing belts to stack items now right? That is essentially giving belts almost "unlimited" throughput as well. I mean you have a belt faster than blue belts that also will let you stack multiple items in each space. That is something like stupid like 20x the throughput of a blue belt.

[Hurkyl]

I imagine green belts cost orders of magnitude more more than 1 iron plate per tile.

And don't forget that vanilla crafting machines will be running much faster due to quality boosting the assembler, prod modules, and speed modules. Not to mention the new crafting machines will be even crazier.

[Fletch]

Originally posted by Halko:

You do realize that they are also adding in an even faster belt and allowing belts to stack items now right? That is essentially giving belts almost "unlimited" throughput as well. I mean you have a belt faster than blue belts that also will let you stack multiple items in each space. That is something like stupid like 20x the throughput of a blue belt.

Did not know that, wow.

[knighttemplar1960]

Originally posted by Halko:

You do realize that they are also adding in an even faster belt and allowing belts to stack items now right? That is essentially giving belts almost "unlimited" throughput as well. I mean you have a belt faster than blue belts that also will let you stack multiple items in each space. That is something like stupid like 20x the throughput of a blue belt.

Rough back on the napkin math... The new belts with stacked items will rival the speed of logistic bots. The only difference is you will be able to upgrade robot speeds with infinite research. You won't be able to do that with the belts.

[Ghulmeister]

the people who dont like the new pipes will surely be able to mod their experience to their liking. such is the beauty of factorio.

[Fel]

Originally posted by Ghulmeister:

the people who dont like the new pipes will surely be able to mod their experience to their liking. such is the beauty of factorio.

I'm not sure that's the case.
Similar to how we can't touch the logic of the current pipes, we probably won't be able to do so either with the new ones.

[Necronium]

Originally posted by Ghulmeister:

the people who dont like the new pipes will surely be able to mod their experience to their liking. such is the beauty of factorio.

pipes cannot be modified as in changing how they work

[Virtual Ocean Horizon]

Different perspective:

I never liked how fluids were implemented in this game at all. IMO fluids should be really bulky and hard to transport, whether in pipes or on rail. Offshore pump not being powered or having a burner equivalent is silly. Furthermore, fluids are magically able to navigate into machines. But most of all, from a game design perspective I find it pretty ridiculous that the first pipe you get in the game is also the best pipe in the game. There is no research progression with liquids, other than "here's a new one". I feel like liquids should have throughput limitations just like belts, but instead they travel near instantly. Therefore I argue there is an imbalance in long term complexity to the logistics of fluid setups compared to belts & physical items. Ergo, fluids are boring in Factorio.

I'm split on requiring circuit network for efficient oil setups because there is no simple native overflow handling. Which the challenge is fun, if anything its the best mechanical challenge with fluids in the game, period. Designing circuit network for oil is satisfying in its own right. What isn't so fun is making it realistically the only option and then not giving an ingame tutorial. Sure, wiki solves these problems, but with such a robust tutorial system ingame for many other game mechanics, its kind of jarring. But that's nitpicking really.

That said, making fluids simpler than they are now is not a drawback. I feel if they're going to be as simple as they are already, it probably improves the game to make them even simpler to cut out the unnecessary fluff. Whatever complexity they currently have is just bizarre because it feels only halfway there.

[Hurkyl]

They didn't change the fluid implementation to make it simpler. They changed it because the current implementation is janky and obscure, and the expansion is going to stress your logistics enough to make those problems overwhelming.

They tried overhauling fluids before they released 1.0, but they had to shelve the attempt to implement new physics because they couldn't get all the problems with it sorted out.

[Fuinril]

Originally posted by Virtual Ocean Horizon:

Different perspective:

I never liked how fluids were implemented in this game at all. IMO fluids should be really bulky and hard to transport, whether in pipes or on rail. Offshore pump not being powered or having a burner equivalent is silly. Furthermore, fluids are magically able to navigate into machines. But most of all, from a game design perspective I find it pretty ridiculous that the first pipe you get in the game is also the best pipe in the game. There is no research progression with liquids, other than "here's a new one". I feel like liquids should have throughput limitations just like belts, but instead they travel near instantly. Therefore I argue there is an imbalance in long term complexity to the logistics of fluid setups compared to belts & physical items. Ergo, fluids are boring in Factorio.

....

That said, making fluids simpler than they are now is not a drawback. I feel if they're going to be as simple as they are already, it probably improves the game to make them even simpler to cut out the unnecessary fluff. Whatever complexity they currently have is just bizarre because it feels only halfway there.

To be fair, wayyyy back at the early EA stage, fluids were not supposed to work like they do now. I can't remember if it was ever implemented in game but the mechanisms existed ans were used on early bob & angel. Things like pipe sizes (small for propagation speed, large for content), fluid viscosity, temperature, etc... I suspect Wube never found the right formula to make informations about the system state clear... and that lead to them stating it was far too complex for no reason (not that I disagree) and that this system was immensely punitive for the players (again I agree. Spending 3 hours to purge and recreate a complex system because you merged fluids on a miss click was awfull).

The current system is just this : a butchered system of what aimed to be a light implementation of fluid mechanics, which is not a fun subject at all when one study it, and worst : is not intuitive. You would not want to have to setup your temperature, pressure and velocity... when doing chemistery in factorio right ?

As for the imbalance, once again there is some clue it was designed to be more than it is, but right now it's akward. A bit too complex to not just be "a flavor element", too simple to actually be interesting. Now they have choosen : it will be a flavor element

[Hedning]

Pipes today provide a special challenge. I am not sure if it is fun, but it really only applies to megabase. There's no belt balancer for pipes, which can be a problem for unloading trains when you need veryy high throughput. It doesn't look very good with all the pumps and parallel belts, but it is also a challenge that is different from other challenges in the game, and the game needs to have a variety of challenges.

As for the nuclear plant you should be penalized for not building it on water. If you notice we are not forced to build huge cooling towers. I think making us build on water by making the water demand so large was a clever ploy, even if accidentally clever.

[Anna]

Originally posted by Fuinril:

The current system is just this : a butchered system of what aimed to be a light implementation of fluid mechanics, which is not a fun subject at all when one study it, and worst : is not intuitive. You would not want to have to setup your temperature, pressure and velocity... when doing chemistery in factorio right ?

As for the imbalance, once again there is some clue it was designed to be more than it is, but right now it's akward. A bit too complex to not just be "a flavor element", too simple to actually be interesting. Now they have choosen : it will be a flavor element

When you study it the new system is infinitely more fun than the old system. Throughput limitation is just one limitation that doesn't work too well when you have a network of connection because it's a mathematically unsolvable problem.

You have to use numerical analysis and an approximation and it's inherently not fun, and never accurate if your hardware have do anything else besides those calculations this month.

New system on another hand is deterministic, 100% predictable and instead of giving the single "challenge" of building a pump between two underground pipes provide the player with opportunities to build at least those structures unthinkable before:

Systems with multiple fluids in one pipe.
Working and readable accumulators for steam without UPS death
Neat looking train stations that works.

And this is just me, before playing the game, I don't know what the smarter people would come up with. Displays that uses liquid pipe windows as pixel colors maybe?

What was the most complex thing with the old system? Connecting tanks directly to pumps? Ugliest train stations imaginable that still can't reach throughput? Building linear nuclear reactor on a lake?

As for realism the new system is not realistic, but the old system is just as bad, stopping tons of fluids in a moment and reversing direction is impossible, pipes are directional in reality and mostly point to point, consumption is regulated way in advance to keep the system operational at all. And all of this is not fun

[Jack Sparrow]

Originally posted by Halko:

The pipe system and its new version is the perfect example of "realism" being bad for playability. Sure it its more "realistic" for liquid to flow through a pipe and for the outputs later on in the system to get less material but for gameplay its a nightmare.

Stuff like this is exactly why i always hated when people try to complain about a game being somehow bad for not being realistic. If you want a 5 year old to swing a 2 ton hammer just go for it. Who cares. If you want a spaceship to make sounds in the vacuum of space just go for it. Who cares. It you want pipes to work in a way thats actually functional and makes sense that isnt a giant pain in the ass then go for it.

I mean.. Satisfactory has simulated fluid mechanics and they are kinda great fun to play with, so no "realism" does not = "bad for playability"

[Khaylain]

Originally posted by Jack Sparrow:

Originally posted by Halko:

The pipe system and its new version is the perfect example of "realism" being bad for playability. Sure it its more "realistic" for liquid to flow through a pipe and for the outputs later on in the system to get less material but for gameplay its a nightmare.

Stuff like this is exactly why i always hated when people try to complain about a game being somehow bad for not being realistic. If you want a 5 year old to swing a 2 ton hammer just go for it. Who cares. If you want a spaceship to make sounds in the vacuum of space just go for it. Who cares. It you want pipes to work in a way thats actually functional and makes sense that isnt a giant pain in the ass then go for it.

I mean.. Satisfactory has simulated fluid mechanics and they are kinda great fun to play with, so no "realism" does not = "bad for playability"

Does it, though?

[kremlin]

Originally posted by Anna:

Systems with multiple fluids in one pipe.

Still going to be a terrible idea that requires the same level of over-engineered system of fluid retention and dumping that you currently require. Nothing about the new system makes overloading a pipe easier.