Tech tree interface => Request : Fix that sh!t !

[Shroomy]

As many other threads I read on the subject, please add an unzoom button on the tech tree. As a noobie, I'm not enjoying the tech tree navigation as I do not have the macro vision of it (as in other 4X games).

I know there are external links with the full tech tree, but what the heck! I can't check if I have access to this or that tech, the requirements for it, etc. etc. crossed with the use or intrication of choosing one tech instead of another.

And, what about integrating that tech map on the design of the Civilization franchise, or even Kerbal space program, for example. That would not be a too big workload for you, expert dev team!

For a game that is extremely well developped about algorithmics and mechanics, you lack the UX design part a bit (Tech tree, player interface - a bit basic to me) to make this game 100% positive user experience rather than, let's say, 80%, to be kind.

Please tell us if you plan to optimize this part of the game and/or develop the steam workshop access so that any player could implement that increment asap. (A bit of a game-killer to me).

[Fel]

What you wrote tends to tell me that you didn't try to understand how it works and went straight to the forums to complain that it is not like X or Y game you usually play.

Maybe I'm wrong of course but either way here is how it works (and when you give it a chance it ends up being much better than just a tree, especially when you add mods that add a lot of technologies as well).

On the bottom left side you have a list of all technologies, ordered by availability then technology tier and finally number of cycles.
There are 3 states for "availability", ready to be researched in yellow and always at the top of the list, still lacking some pre-requisite technologies in red and right after the first and already researched in green at the bottom.

Clicking on any of those entries will select it, displayig the cost, effects (usually unlocking recipes but sometimes boosts as well) and description above the list as well as a partial tech tree of everything connected to that technology on the right.

The tree view will be centered on the selected technology by default, with required technologies above (and their required technologies, all the way to the basic technologies) and technologies that require it below (and the technologies that require them further down).


The tree view is not supposed to show you the full tech tree like in many games and is just there to help you figure out what you need to research to get to a specific technology.


I'm not saying that it is flawless, just that it's not meant to be what you seem to want out of it.
(as for modding, it already exists, just not on the steam workshop and I'm not sure if we can alter that UI)

[Skorj]

I share your frustration. A navigable tech tree is par for the course. You shouldn't need to go to a wiki to explore it. Despite being 8 years old, Factorio is still a "first indie game" in many ways. The core mechanics and performance are polished to near perfection, but a lot of game design choices are odd and unpolished.

[KatherineOfSky]

@OP, please refrain from righteous indignation... your disrespect toward the developers is uncalled for, especially since it's clear you are not aware of how the research tree works. You don't need a Civ-style tree. Technologies in Factorio have many ways of connection, and that's not that important since they are graded by complexity (science pack needs).

If you want to look up a tech, use the search bar: it will show you what you need to research to get there. Research goes so fast in the game that you can safely research many intermediate technologies without worrying about the cost of science packs.

If you are worried, then I suggest that you build up more production lines and gain more experience with the game. You'll find that the research tree is not only adequate, but useful as well.

Instead of wanting Factorio to be another game... learn the way Factorio does things, and you (hopefully) will gain satisfaction from it.

[Shroomy]

Thanks for the answers. I know i sounded frustrated, but even if, by chosing a tech, I can see where it leads (for next techs depending on it), I just don't understand why I can't easily have the whole picture of the tech tree in order to sort the tech branches I'd like to select first.

i.e : If I want to go full upgraded train tech branch first (I know it's stupid), I'd like to be able to know exactly which techs i'll have to discover instead of wandering in the icons at the bottom left, or clicking on other dependable techs (without getting lost with all the flashy icons) to know where to go.

The result of this interface design is that I end with clicking any green tech to make all tech available, without losing time and focus (this game is demanding on focus for buiding proprely my fab chain), and I don't want to pause and alt tab every 10 mn after a tech is completed (which makes me lose my thoughts like "ok, that's the tech I need, I lost 5 mn looking for what tech to select, now...what was the building order I was working on?...sh!t, I forgot").

That was just my user story, thanks and GG all. (oh, and I don't want to add an external mod without the steam workshop "support" : comments easily available, content notation, mod updates, word of the mod developer, etc., which are less accessible on an internet forum (they are not as much accessible than the steam workshop when searching efficient information)).

[KatherineOfSky]

If you want mods, the dedicated mod portal is mods.factorio.com. It is not a forum

As to train tech: there are only 3 techs, and they are all in a single line, (IIRC red & green science): Trains, stops, signals.

Other techs are gated by science pack colors, so for example, if you want bullet damage, you can get the first level for red science, the next for red & green, and so on. (There aren't any additional dependencies).

There are very few techs where you start in one area, then need extra dependencies to get to the next step. (I can only think of one atm, and that is Logistics. You can get passive provider Chests very early, but it requires much more tech to get the Request & Buffer chests.)

[Vyndicu]

@KatherineOfSky

I would ask what indignation? If you are referring to the title then I believe he is expressing his own frustration constructively.


As for OP, I do agree that some of the details can be lost in the closeup tech view we have right now.

For example, Sometime in a mod you would look at a X tech and think ooh nice must have! Only to find out that you can't produce the intermediate goods required for that thing after unlocking X tech because Y tech gate the intermediate good.


I just ran into a recent example of this in Krastorio 2: Fuel tech which unlock recipe for light oil -> Fuel and Solid Fuel/Hydrogen -> Fuel. Obviously the first recipe is unusable because light oil doesn't become available until much later (Advanced Oil Processing).

While you can use Fluid Chemistry tech's recipe water electrolysis to produce Hydrogen. The trouble is that it also produce Chlorine.

I have no idea what Chlorine is used for so I kinda of had to back off on using a car because it wasn't clear at first glance that this was going to be a problem.

It would be a different story if I had an earlier need for chlorine but I couldn't find anything to consume the excess chlorine without resorting to excess fluid burning which is less than ideal.

[Shroomy]

@KatherineOfSky

Just remind something about how to develop a user interface : If a user cannot intuitively use your interface without having to search basic infos about it on external media, it is probably because it's design is flawed. This is called the KISS method (Keep It Simple, Stupid), well known by any UX designer.

Game developers often know that the gaming industry market is composed by tons of players that may be too lazy to get into a game that is frustrating by his approach/interface aspect. Thee reason is that they have 200+ games more agreable to play with without being un-necessary complex and useless time-sinkers for research of relevant information on how to play efficiently.

Let me be clear about my intellectual specs concerning my ability to understand what I 'm doing when playing this game : I understand the game mechanics in the fab-line construction/optimization/automation aspect, I'm not raging because I might be too stupid to understand what to do empirically, I just want a better access to theory, especially when it is about evolving in the techs. I hate wasting my time for free when it is clear it is a problem of game design optimization and that I have to correct it by wandering on internet forums/wikis.

Gaining basic knowledge of the game's technology tree and its intrications with research-on-the-internet time or gaming-grind-experience is NOT how a game experience should be. that's my point, and this is 2020.

That's just my point of view on this dissonant aspect of the game's design. Take it or leave it to modders, forget the demand of new players and don't make the game evolve in function of these players' needs and you'll get the recipe for any short-term project extinction. Evolve and adapt = survive.

[CrushedIce]

Statement by the devs about this:

Tech tree in Factorio is hard to layout. Technically we have (and Civilization has) oriented graph, not tree, and our graph is not planar (which means it can't be drawn on a piece of paper without some connections crossing). We have vanilla technologies under control, so we could rework them to make the graph planar but the game needs to be usable with whatever technologies mods define. So we figures we reduce the problem if we draw just part of the graph relevant to selected technology.

https://forums.factorio.com/viewtopic.php?t=42980

[Shroomy]

Thanks for the link, indeed, as mentionned in the quote, it's more a tech-web rather than a tech-tree.

However, looking at this link : https://davemcw.com/factorio/tech-tree/ ,I wish it could be integrated in the UI, with updated info on techs you have upgraded (Researched / Not researched / What tech it unlocks, and what the tech after would unlock next + what other tech branches I would have to develop to get access to the exact end item I wish to go first).

Moreover, it IS plannar to a point : for example, when you have finished the red science techs you are bottlenecked in research until you unlock the green packs, and so on.

So, it's more a 2 to 4 dimensionnal table rather than a full exponentially-complex N-dimensionnal neuronal web. As seen in the weblink of the tree tech, no more than 5 or 6 connections exist between every tech, instead of ~200^200 connections per each of the ~200 tech items.
This links to this knowledge : Graph theory : https://fr.qwe.wiki/wiki/Connectivity_(graph_theory)

So, a map could be made with a complete overview. Maybe sorting techs by themes would be easier for devs if they lack the knowledge in complex network mapping/Data science (like, for Civ, the navy techs, trade techs, of the dogma tree used in parallel with the tech tree).

It is "Hard" according to the devs, but is not impossible to make, they could use the money of the sales to hire a data/graph scientist :)

[Fel]

The "hard" part is not making it happen for vanilla, a few tweaks on the technologies would even allow for a pretty clean tree-style view, but making a system that can reliably churn out readable graphs even when mods enter the mix.

[KatherineOfSky]

Originally posted by Shroomy:

@KatherineOfSky

Just remind something about how to develop a user interface : If a user cannot intuitively use your interface without having to search basic infos about it on external media, it is probably because it's design is flawed. This is called the KISS method (Keep It Simple, Stupid), well known by any UX designer.

Game developers often know that the gaming industry market is composed by tons of players that may be too lazy to get into a game that is frustrating by his approach/interface aspect. Thee reason is that they have 200+ games more agreable to play with without being un-necessary complex and useless time-sinkers for research of relevant information on how to play efficiently.

Let me be clear about my intellectual specs concerning my ability to understand what I 'm doing when playing this game : I understand the game mechanics in the fab-line construction/optimization/automation aspect, I'm not raging because I might be too stupid to understand what to do empirically, I just want a better access to theory, especially when it is about evolving in the techs. I hate wasting my time for free when it is clear it is a problem of game design optimization and that I have to correct it by wandering on internet forums/wikis.

Gaining basic knowledge of the game's technology tree and its intrications with research-on-the-internet time or gaming-grind-experience is NOT how a game experience should be. that's my point, and this is 2020.

That's just my point of view on this dissonant aspect of the game's design. Take it or leave it to modders, forget the demand of new players and don't make the game evolve in function of these players' needs and you'll get the recipe for any short-term project extinction. Evolve and adapt = survive.

As much as you want to lecture people on the intricacies of game design, it might be a better use of your time to actually learn the game instead of typing walls of text to people who are already aware of the concepts you state.

You didn't read or understand anything I wrote. That's a shame.

You are not the first person to talk about the tech tree, but it is far from a common complaint. For the developers to cater to a tiny segment of people would be a waste of their development time, especially when the tech tree is eminently useful for the game. (Note: a single individual's vision is not necessarily the game designer's vision for the game). I've explained to you how to use the tech tree: and all elements are available just by observing the interface.

If you are not satisfied, then use a mod to tailor things to your particular interests.

As far as "extinction" goes... you overestimate your own opinion's importance. Factorio has sold over 2 million copies. It's not struggling by any means.

[Vixx]

Tech tree works great for me