What's the point of Kovarex helping you get Uranium 235 if it is in itself an ingredient to the recipe?

[davidalangay]

I'm having a problem trying to get U235 because it is a rare element in game (as everyone is aware of). I looked at the wiki to find a way how to improve my odds of getting this element for my nuclear reactor. I came across this paragraph:

"Uranium-235 is necessary to create uranium fuel cells and atomic bombs, in considerable quantities for the latter, but the probability distribution of uranium processing leads to it being produced slowly and creating large stockpiles of U-238 as a byproduct. The Kovarex process thus provides the player with a considerably faster (and deterministic) method of producing U-235, as well as a use for the surplus U-238."

Wonderful! Two birds with one stone! I stop having to spend so much time neatly inventorying the sea of U238 that is drowning me, and I get more U235 to make Uranium cells.

Not so fast! I looked at the recipe. I need U235 and U238 to....make.....U235 and U238.

Wait a minute! How exactly does this help me? It's like saying I need cake to bake the same cake. The cake isn't the ingredient. It's the end product. The element is already hard to come by and I need quite a few U235 to make more U235 with the help of U238.

I don't see the point in this.

[Hurkyl]

It helps you because it produces U235. What does it matter that it requires you to already have some U235?

Each craft nets +1 U235 and -3 U238. Is that not something you would find desirable? And it's not just a faster way to make U235. It also avoids the whole "neatly inventorying the sea of U238 drowning me" you are having a problem with -- and it even gives you a productive way to start clearing out that stockpile.

Incidentally, this sort of recipe is a normal real world phenomenon -- it's called a "catalyst". It's something that's required to be present for a reaction to take place, but ultimately is not used up in the process (e.g. because it is recreated at the end). I think there are even some actual reactions that result in producing more of the same material, but I don't know any off the top of my head.

Edit: and I think this is one of the real world ways for producing nuclear fuel. Specifically, a "breeder reactor" is a nuclear reactor that can be used to produce more fuel than it consumes. Although, I think, U238 to U235 isn't one of the actual real-world processes. It looks like U238 to Pu239 is the thing to do with that.

[Hedning]

First of all as long as you can store the u238 you are fine using the u235 as fuel for reactors. Reactors take almost no fuel to run and just a small mining operation can support many reactors. Don't wait starting nuclear power.

With that out of the way the way it helps is that it converts u238 into u235. You need a big stockpile of u235 first, but once you have that you can make more a lot faster, and it gets rid of your waste u238 that would otherwise be stockpiling indefinitely.
Look at it as an investment. You need to put money in the bank in order to earn interest.

It is a lot of u235 you need to stockpile, so many people feel a desire to wait with reactors in order to save up faster, but that is a mistake, again, like I explained the reactors take very little and even a tiny operation will produce surplus to start kovarex eventually. Look irl: we didn't wait with nuclear power until we had some way to get rid of the waste.

[malogoss]

Give me back 41$ for every 40$ I can give to you, you'll understand pretty fast how profitable it is for me ;)

[knighttemplar1960]

It takes 12 seconds in a centrifuge to convert 10 uranium ore into 1 processed uranium.

1 processed uranium has a .7% chance of being a U-235 instead of a U-238.

If the production rate of U-235 is exactly the listed chance it takes 143 cycles (1,716 seconds = 28.6 minutes) to produce 1 U-235.

40 U-235 + 5 U-238 become 41 U-235 and 2 U-238 in a centrifuge in 60 seconds .

Once you have have spent the 19 hours for 1 centrifuge to produce the required 40 U-235 you can use one centrifuge to produce 1 U-235 every minute instead.

Perhaps that puts things in a different light for you?

Originally posted by Hurkyl:

Incidentally, this sort of recipe is a normal real world phenomenon -- it's called a "catalyst". It's something that's required to be present for a reaction to take place, but ultimately is not used up in the process (e.g. because it is recreated at the end). I think there are even some actual reactions that result in producing more of the same material, but I don't know any off the top of my head.

Sour dough bread production comes to mind. An ancient process that has been in use for over 5,000 years. A small amount of starter dough is set aside and used the following morning to make a large amount of dough, most of which is made into loaves for that days consumption with a small amount left fermenting over night to be used as the starter to make the next day's loaves.

[Mike Garrison]

I will point out that if you use uranium ammo, you want to have U-238. If you make atomic bombs or have nuclear power, you want to have U-235. So there is a balancing act involved, and I usually try to have the Kovarex line triggered by a feedback loop to balance both supplies.

[Hedning]

Originally posted by Hurkyl:

If you run the nuclear reactor full time (which IIRC you also suggest), you need 1 U235 every 200 seconds.

No, you need one uranium fuel cell every 200 seconds, which you get 10 for 1 u235. So take your numbers and divide them by 10.

[Hurkyl]

Okay I missed that. I had even looked up the numbers to be sure and missed that one. I guess there's no value in keeping the post up, so I assume nobody minds if I delete it to avoid confusing the issue.

[shadain597]

Originally posted by Hurkyl:

Incidentally, this sort of recipe is a normal real world phenomenon -- it's called a "catalyst". It's something that's required to be present for a reaction to take place, but ultimately is not used up in the process (e.g. because it is recreated at the end). I think there are even some actual reactions that result in producing more of the same material, but I don't know any off the top of my head.

IIRC, growing artificial crystals works similarly. You start with a tiny crystal and put it in a soup of raw material to grow a larger crystal. Not technically a catalyst, but you include a small amount of the end product as an ingredient. Or, to use another food example, you can "cheat" at making tempered chocolate by adding some previously-tempered chocolate to the bowl at the right time.

Originally posted by Hedning:

It is a lot of u235 you need to stockpile, so many people feel a desire to wait with reactors in order to save up faster, but that is a mistake, again, like I explained the reactors take very little and even a tiny operation will produce surplus to start kovarex eventually. Look irl: we didn't wait with nuclear power until we had some way to get rid of the waste.

Holding onto the first U-235 for Kovarex isn't automatically a "mistake." It's a situational thing. Sure, if you need power now, the reactors are just waiting on fuel, and you're burning through uranium bullets, yeah, fire those reactors up. Alternatively, if the previously-built solar farm currently meets demand and you aren't chewing through the ammo, there's no reason to rush things.

But yeah, there's probably too many people building out a small extension to the boiler plant to cover rising power demands while waiting for a large Kovarex setup to start churning out a surplus. Meanwhile, their 1-4 reactor powerplant is just sitting there waiting for fuel input. . .

[Defektiv]

All I know is I had a problem with excess 238 so I started up a couple kovarex processes and now I have excess 238 and 235. And I only just started the second reactor up so still have about 200MW of power to use before even thinking about the third.

[Hedning]

Originally posted by shadain597:

Holding onto the first U-235 for Kovarex isn't automatically a "mistake." It's a situational thing. Sure, if you need power now, the reactors are just waiting on fuel, and you're burning through uranium bullets, yeah, fire those reactors up. Alternatively, if the previously-built solar farm currently meets demand and you aren't chewing through the ammo, there's no reason to rush things.

But yeah, there's probably too many people building out a small extension to the boiler plant to cover rising power demands while waiting for a large Kovarex setup to start churning out a surplus. Meanwhile, their 1-4 reactor powerplant is just sitting there waiting for fuel input. . .

Centrifuges are not cheap and the mining is convoluted, requiring a really long pipe, or a fluid train. You are making all this effort to set up nuclear power, just to stop halfway and get nothing for it? That's a mistake in my book. If you don't need the power now, then go do things other than digging uranium.

I think the only use case for setting it up early is something you mentioned: Uranium bullets. Gun turrets are weak at this stage and uranium bullets are still worse than flame, but if you are going that route for fun, then it makes sense to start mining shortly before unlocking the bullets even if you don't need power. The u235 would just be a byproduct.

[Khagan]

Originally posted by Hedning:

First of all as long as you can store the u238 you are fine using the u235 as fuel for reactors. Reactors take almost no fuel to run and just a small mining operation can support many reactors. Don't wait starting nuclear power.

Quoted for agreement. A fairly modest uranium mining operation can easily supply a 4-core reactor with natural 235 and simultaneously build up a stockpile of it. By the time you need a larger nuclear power station, you should have both the tech and the catalyst for kovarex.

[davidalangay]

Originally posted by Hurkyl:

It helps you because it produces U235. What does it matter that it requires you to already have some U235?

Each craft nets +1 U235 and -3 U238. Is that not something you would find desirable? And it's not just a faster way to make U235. It also avoids the whole "neatly inventorying the sea of U238 drowning me" you are having a problem with -- and it even gives you a productive way to start clearing out that stockpile.

Incidentally, this sort of recipe is a normal real world phenomenon -- it's called a "catalyst". It's something that's required to be present for a reaction to take place, but ultimately is not used up in the process (e.g. because it is recreated at the end). I think there are even some actual reactions that result in producing more of the same material, but I don't know any off the top of my head.

Edit: and I think this is one of the real world ways for producing nuclear fuel. Specifically, a "breeder reactor" is a nuclear reactor that can be used to produce more fuel than it consumes. Although, I think, U238 to U235 isn't one of the actual real-world processes. It looks like U238 to Pu239 is the thing to do with that.

Yes, you are right. I remember hearing how rare U235 is as an element.

My point was that I'm already having trouble getting this element (which I've accepted both as a vanilla game rule and also a source of frustration for a few players as I've discovered in in the forums. Apparently I am not alone). Since the Kovarex process actually requires a good number of U235 (I think it was 40?) to start the conversion, I may not see a realization from that as soon as I had hoped. When I first read the wiki on that, I thought it would consume a ton of U238 only but maybe I misunderstood the quoted phrase.

[davidalangay]

Originally posted by Hedning:

First of all as long as you can store the u238 you are fine using the u235 as fuel for reactors. Reactors take almost no fuel to run and just a small mining operation can support many reactors. Don't wait starting nuclear power.

With that out of the way the way it helps is that it converts u238 into u235. You need a big stockpile of u235 first, but once you have that you can make more a lot faster, and it gets rid of your waste u238 that would otherwise be stockpiling indefinitely.
Look at it as an investment. You need to put money in the bank in order to earn interest.

It is a lot of u235 you need to stockpile, so many people feel a desire to wait with reactors in order to save up faster, but that is a mistake, again, like I explained the reactors take very little and even a tiny operation will produce surplus to start kovarex eventually. Look irl: we didn't wait with nuclear power until we had some way to get rid of the waste.

I'm beginning to think maybe I should have waited a bit before doing all that research on nuclear power based on the current level I am at now. For experimentation's sake, I ran Factorio for under six hours to see how much U235 would appear. I ended up with only 30. It was then I realized those quoted chance percentages are not a static chance of happening. It's possible I could get less or more, in which case the former happened.

[davidalangay]

Originally posted by malogoss:

Give me back 41$ for every 40$ I can give to you, you'll understand pretty fast how profitable it is for me ;)

I'm having even worse luck making money than I am generating U235. 😉

[davidalangay]

Originally posted by knighttemplar1960:

It takes 12 seconds in a centrifuge to convert 10 uranium ore into 1 processed uranium.

1 processed uranium has a .7% chance of being a U-235 instead of a U-238.

If the production rate of U-235 is exactly the listed chance it takes 143 cycles (1,716 seconds = 28.6 minutes) to produce 1 U-235.

40 U-235 + 5 U-238 become 41 U-235 and 2 U-238 in a centrifuge in 60 seconds .

Once you have have spent the 19 hours for 1 centrifuge to produce the required 40 U-235 you can use one centrifuge to produce 1 U-235 every minute instead.

Perhaps that puts things in a different light for you?

Originally posted by Hurkyl:

Incidentally, this sort of recipe is a normal real world phenomenon -- it's called a "catalyst". It's something that's required to be present for a reaction to take place, but ultimately is not used up in the process (e.g. because it is recreated at the end). I think there are even some actual reactions that result in producing more of the same material, but I don't know any off the top of my head.

Sour dough bread production comes to mind. An ancient process that has been in use for over 5,000 years. A small amount of starter dough is set aside and used the following morning to make a large amount of dough, most of which is made into loaves for that days consumption with a small amount left fermenting over night to be used as the starter to make the next day's loaves.

Okay, so 19 hours you got 40 U-235. That seems consistent with the results I got with an experiment where I ran Factorio unattended for 6 hours and ended up with 30 U235. It seems to me it's an issue of I just need to wait as much as I did before I got the Kovarex researched.