Why is the coal always gone?

[gienekman]

Seriously, i started a new game and i ended with a coal patch below 100k and i thought to myself "Ok let's do this!"

After i made a car (and had 20k coal left) i explored the map and the only coal patch i found was behind a huge biter base with big worms.

Rngesus hates me >.<

[Losco]

I play without biters and with big and rich ore patches exactly for this reason

[malogoss]

True, changing game settings can prevent most of the situations any player dislikes the most.

There's also the option to look at the map preview, from the menus, before launching a new game. Under the same game settings, 2 different seeds can generate maps that look like they were created with different settings. Biters nests, resources in general, the amount of tree coverage, oil specifically are all things that can make you try a different map seed instead. Without changing the map settings.

Or you could fight the worms. Grenades are really good against them. Once you know how to wiggle left and right real fast, their spit won't hit you, since you'll never be where they predict you'll be. Armor helps a tiny bit. And bring fish, just in case.

edit: holy heck, you have the same hours in game as I do, I think you should be able to manage a few worms LOL

[Fel]

In most cases coal is one of the last resources you need more deposits of.

Outside of a few recipes that specifically need coal, it is used as a fuel.
But once you get oil, you can turn light oil into solid fuel (heavy oil and petroleum as well but they have other uses and light oil gives you more) and replace a good portion of your coal needs.

Since coal is needed in lower quantities compared to iron or copper, there are also less deposits of it.
But it doesn't change the fact that going further away from spawn results in better deposits, even if the bitters nests also grow.

Depending on your technology level and the evolution factor, getting rid of that nest can either be relatively easy or kind of tricky.
Remember that you have access to more than just your weapons, turret creep and explosives are also valid ways to attack the nests.

[gienekman]

Originally posted by malogoss:

True, changing game settings can prevent most of the situations any player dislikes the most.

There's also the option to look at the map preview, from the menus, before launching a new game. Under the same game settings, 2 different seeds can generate maps that look like they were created with different settings. Biters nests, resources in general, the amount of tree coverage, oil specifically are all things that can make you try a different map seed instead. Without changing the map settings.

Or you could fight the worms. Grenades are really good against them. Once you know how to wiggle left and right real fast, their spit won't hit you, since you'll never be where they predict you'll be. Armor helps a tiny bit. And bring fish, just in case.

edit: holy heck, you have the same hours in game as I do, I think you should be able to manage a few worms LOL

I did, after 30 minutes of tossing my last coal as grenades.
I ended using wood and mining coal rocks to jump start my base again.

I think 'default' settings should be tweaked a bit to guarantee 200kish resources in starter patches, since it's supposed to be 'the way' to play factorio.

[malogoss]

Originally posted by gienekman:

I did, after 30 minutes of tossing my last coal as grenades.
I ended using wood and mining coal rocks to jump start my base again.

I think 'default' settings should be tweaked a bit to guarantee 200kish resources in starter patches, since it's supposed to be 'the way' to play factorio.

Secure coal source before the first one runs dry I guess, or at least have a stockpile of grenades ready.

You're not a beginner. For new players though, I think default settings combined with a bad map roll make things tough, maybe too tough for players who expect something more casual. I remember a friend who played his first game on one of the worst map I have ever seen. It was like, 1 in 100 bad, maybe 1 in 1000, it really was horrible. He did not have much fun.

"The way" to play Factorio does not exist. One player will ignore a weapon that is another's favourite. One will upgrade all belts to blue belts as soon as possible, the other will never craft a single one. One will mod the game so that all resources are infinite, another will lower resources availability. No 2 Factorio players are playing the game the same way, and IMO that's exactly why so many like the game.

[Chindraba]

I greatly dislike reading comments about the "the 'way' to play Factorio." If you're in competitions, of trying to compare yourself to someone else, then there needs to be an agreed upon set of rules for what's allowed to be changed/used and what isn't. Otherwise there is no "way" to play.

The achievement results on Steam are one case of comparing yourself to someone else. And the only 2 rules used for Steam achievements are 1) don't load any mods and 2) don't do anything which disables achievements in Factorio.

On the map gen settings screen there is nothing you can adjust which will disable Steam achievements or Factorio achievements. Some of them will disable certain achievements, but not all achievements. Not counting the map seed itself, there are so many different combinations of setting that it makes inter-galactic distances seem small. Within the "rules" for Steam achievements every single one of those combinations are part of the 'way' to play Factorio. Even by Steam's strict standards. The devs, seemingly, consider use of mods as part of the 'way' as well, since they included the ability to load/unload, install/uninstall, and adjust mods in the main menu. They even allow earning achievements with mods installed. They do keep a separate list of those earned with and without mods. Probably because it makes it easier for tracking Steam achievements, but it is still allowed to earn achievements, in Factorio's opinion, with mods installed.

And, relative to the situation you've encountered with the limited coal and the next coal being under a nest, I have been watching someone's progress in a game where they looked specifically for a map which had all the non-starting resources under or protected by a nest.

[Defektiv]

I assumed this was going to be the case coming back after not playing since 0.13 so I started my current save on Rich Resources. My starting pile of coal was around 700k and although there was not more coal in the immediate vicinity, once I started exploring and expanding outward I found it all over the place, in piles of 10m or more. I think next run is definitely going to be on pure default settings just to see the difference. Because at this point I'm researching space science and I'm not even halfway through the second resource piles for each. The first oil patch I ran into is completely supplying my operations pumping minimum with speed modules.
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3034399913

[rdbury]

In my current playthrough I'm well into chemical research and have only used about 60k coal. One issue is that a lot of the research you can do costs more in resources than you actually get back in benefit. For example I skipped over the Lab research speed ones since I think you're better off just making more labs if you want research to go faster.

Is there a way to get your starting seed and settings after you start the game? It would be nice if people in situations like this could include them. That way experienced players could try them out as a challenge, and perhaps include some specific advice instead of just talking about generalities.

[Defektiv]

I think it also depends quite a bit on your decisions about how to progress. If you scale up boiler steam you can run down coal pretty quickly. But if you scale up solar and only use boilers as a backup you can make coal go a lot further, even if you invest heavily in plastic and explosives.

[Chindraba]

Originally posted by rdbury:

Is there a way to get your starting seed and settings after you start the game? It would be nice if people in situations like this could include them. That way experienced players could try them out as a challenge, and perhaps include some specific advice instead of just talking about generalities.

The full map exchange string is always available for a saved game. When launching a save without using the top option in the main menu, which allows you to instantly resume the newest save, Use the menu path:

Main menu -> Single player -> Load game

Then click on the saved game you want to share. In the GUI's top-right corner there is a button

</>

. Click that and a box show the entire string. It's formatted into short lines and can be copied to the clipboard and shared as text anywhere. Many clients might think it's spam, but it even works in email.

The other option, once you have that string in the clipboard is to use the menu path:

Main menu -> Single player -> New game

On the left is a list of options. Select "Freeplay" which is the default anyway, and click "Next." In this window, in the lower right corner are two buttons with curved arrows and an inbox tray. The arrow point into the tray allows importing a map exchange string. Click than and box opens for entering the string. Paste the string there and click "Confirm." Now all the settings for map generation are set to match that map, including the "Seed" in the top right corner. You can share that seed, rather than all your setting, if you wish.

For the friend you share the exchange string with, or if you get one from someone else, you follow the same "import" process and use the shared string. You can click on the "Preview" button and see a good section of the map which it creates. The preview will change as you adjust settings or change the seed, so you, or someone else, can see what changes in settings will do to the map.

As an example to play with, here's an exchange string to look at.

>>>eNp1U01oE0EUfq9tME1RiuRgQWqEHkTY2NZ6CZKZnsSD4EnPm81E
Fja76exuse3BgAUvipeC6MV4NEXx4sGLFAqioCB68lbx4kHBYv0BhTg
vs5ONafvgvXn/3zezLALCZdDCATZYdsQJbI+i9XabkeacoNEQ0gqkMC
nSUUfGVWEFrkcRQJPReE74or5kVexQ6JTWrCsDf3BDJowC//9MJIUI1
9snmdk5Fkvbd+M6zfaTAjx86c+d5uokkHauQaHTIVXeluojBWwqRhxQ
5RIZOuIEfiQDzwpFFLn+lZIdXy1VXDsctaaLs2emlZzYq6UmxUIsfGe
pVI+9yG14rpDZmeLprmQcz63VAArzAK15YomIK/nH5z4urzHUyEWeOL
+TzEbFZM5rp3ljk+9TApgyzpxxFIhG/85SR4NGCiLpyvLU0cVVKiLe+
vq09evFkzL+fbj97kLlIsPF6wd3fhxfK6tihh5vqGfu3SV5xlJkfW6x
pPSB4ZvXJF8YDtPEGBk+oZBa2yOA44dU2LqpTOEoGGplsybPsdaVn+Y
mn4zzng3eQz3EWVo+SeYlmS7ZHjPULr/NkR8z1Ym0Rc3PQj+HanrDVw
Z2sw9/gMjuD9F/j4HMFN/jM+QIsNozn4d7bNR7vj1gIn6fd98SqGtH5
XSkf1O9Sp/jHPPqMFWSbwwePXh+6h95B9b7<<<

If you load that you should find the seed is 2549831186.

There is one thing, though. This will create the map as it was for the beginning of the game. Nothing about the current factory will be in this data. That's only going to be available in the save file itself, or by having them Stream their game, like on twitch, or by switching to multiplayer and joining their game as a second player.

[rdbury]

Originally posted by Chindraba:

...

The full map exchange string is always available for a saved game. When launching a save without using the top option in the main menu, which allows you to instantly resume the newest save, Use the menu path:
...

There is one thing, though. This will create the map as it was for the beginning of the game. Nothing about the current factory will be in this data. That's only going to be available in the save file itself, or by having them Stream their game, like on twitch, or by switching to multiplayer and joining their game as a second player.

That's very useful. You can read off not just the seed but all the settings and start over with the same map. Actually I think it's more useful to start the map fresh; that way you can tell what should be done from the start instead of trying to undo the all the mistakes. Meanwhile I can use this for my own notes to get the settings used on my last playthrough, My plan is to keep bumping up the difficulty each time, and I can use this to track progress.

[Chindraba]

I have a collection of seeds saved in a file which I found "interesting" for one reason or another while looking for a map that "felt right." Some of those were interesting enough for me think "I wonder....." Then I'd play with the settings a bit, mostly the ones with visual results like ore size or terrain types. The ones that were really interesting have the exchange string saved so I don't have to remember, or record, the exact settings used to make it look the way I liked. Lastly I also have the exchange string for every map I've started, for what ever reason, regardless of why or how far I got into the game on it.
What's amazing to me is that such a short section of text, however encoded it might be, is able to store everything needed to recreate exactly the same map biter bases, cliffs and resource deposits exactly the same on any computer across several version of the game.

[Drizzt]

Originally posted by Chindraba:

What's amazing to me is that such a short section of text, however encoded it might be, is able to store everything needed to recreate exactly the same map biter bases, cliffs and resource deposits exactly the same on any computer across several version of the game.

it is cool

based on some stuff i have done with procedural generation i would assume it is able to be so compact because it uses a bunch of those stored numbers as inputs into the algorithm for the various map features, and the rest are settings

you can probably see what goes where by using the same seed and just changing a single settings from default, say cliff frequency - and comparing the exchange strings - i would assume it may only have one character different - since it looks like it is using the alphanumeric ASCII for each character (A-Za-z0-9) - so that could store 60+ values per character - and i wouldn't be surprised if those sliders have 64 slices or something like that

and however it precisely works - it is very cool :-)

(EDIT: looks like it has added + and / to make it up to 64 values per character - so it is a base64 string - only needs 3 characters to get 16 million values - pretty cool)

[Chindraba]

If the blueprint string is any clue it's probably a collection of values, however created, which is then compressed with something, likely zlib, and that fully-binary result is base64 encoded to be text safe. Still, as it is for the BP strings. it's an amazing piece of work. Hardly unexpected in consideration of the source. Amazing nonetheless.

[knighttemplar1960]

I actually managed to catch the coal thief in one of my games. He tried to disguise himself as a coal deposit but he was unable to fool me.
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2321522346