Factorio & programming / coding (challenge to develop)

[Mav]

I was thinking... would be awesome if for example in DLC some part would extend Factorio by in-game-programming in some language! For example if we want we could change machine parameters (sorter, inserter, logic signals, etc) in some language (C# / Java, C++, Python, etc) Not modding, just in-game-coding like it is in few games on Steam, where they focus on pure coding or architecture in controlers/cpu



It is nice to have a dream and... maybe seed new idea for developers for future updates (:

[Fel]

You mean, something like what we can already do with console commands?

[Mav]

Originally posted by Fel:

You mean, something like what we can already do with console commands?

No. Console Commands are just commands, making game easier, when you for example change mining speed it apply to each miner. I was thinking about option to program each machine separately (and copy/paste code tooif needed). Have a screen where you can see code, do some changes, see it and watch how it works.

Game like:
Colobot
Turing Complete
Virtual Circuit Board
Logic World (actualy we have that in half)
7 billion humans

[Galileus]

That would alienate a lot of the audience. Part of Factorio's charm is the fact you can make complex and amazing machines while not needing any actual engineering skills.

[Mav]

Originally posted by Full Frontal Alchemist:

That would alienate a lot of the audience. Part of Factorio's charm is the fact you can make complex and amazing machines while not needing any actual engineering skills.

It could be DLC, with no impact on vanila version. Like they right now are working on DLC that wont be mandatory for those who want to play vanila, original version.
Like with current Factorio mods that are OPTIONAL, and you don't have to instal any to enjoy main game. Same with programming/coding, it could be accesible, and for example we could see default code, but any edit will be OPTIONAL

[Fel]

For the first few DLC at least they would probably want to make something that a large portion of the players would want to get.
After that, who knows but individual scripts for potentially each individual machine would most likely hit the performances pretty hard.

[Galileus]

Originally posted by maveri:

It could be DLC, with no impact on vanila version. Like they right now are working on DLC that wont be mandatory for those who want to play vanila, original version.

It would still alienate a lot of the audience. Your counter-argument is not an argument, it changes nothing. There is a big group of people who want to enjoy the new DLC, and cratering just to a sub-group of them - no doubt a minority, too - will alienate the other part.

Mods are not made by the developers, and mod makers do not need to carter to an audience. They are not a part of the equation.

Having this kind of tonal shift from the base game could be a good thing if it had other DLCs and thriving content base to work from. It doesn't. It's the sole DLC and the developer aims at big, meaningful content updates. Within that mentality, a programming DLC is just not feasible.

[Mav]

Originally posted by Full Frontal Alchemist:

Originally posted by maveri:

It could be DLC, with no impact on vanila version. Like they right now are working on DLC that wont be mandatory for those who want to play vanila, original version.

It would still alienate a lot of the audience. Your counter-argument is not an argument, it changes nothing. There is a big group of people who want to enjoy the new DLC, and cratering just to a sub-group of them - no doubt a minority, too - will alienate the other part.

Mods are not made by the developers, and mod makers do not need to carter to an audience. They are not a part of the equation.

Having this kind of tonal shift from the base game could be a good thing if it had other DLCs and thriving content base to work from. It doesn't. It's the sole DLC and the developer aims at big, meaningful content updates. Within that mentality, a programming DLC is just not feasible.

you say "alienate", i say "opotunity to learn coding language".

Think... out of the box, don't be sceptic at the begining

[Fel]

As you pointed out though, there are already games that give that opportunity, and for the most part they were built around the concept of coding things instead of trying to shove it in.

Wouldn't those games be a better place to learn then?

[Galileus]

Originally posted by maveri:

you say "alienate", i say "opotunity to learn coding language".

Think... out of the box, don't be sceptic at the begining

It's better to be a sceptic at the beginning then after the fall. And in this case it's more of being a realist. I would love that coding expansion, you know? That doesn't make me The Audience.

As for the opportunity... we live in the Age of Opportunity. You can learn anything you want to, and most of it for free. Now, you could use that opportunity to learn about opportunity cost. And apply this to your idea. I'm sorry, but it doesn't look good. It's fun, it would be great... it's just not feasible.

I would love a combat-oriented DLC. Make it more of an action game on top. Not going to happen. Would be fun, would be new, would be a wasted effort.

[Freak4Leeks]

yes it could be very very cool.

That was actually the selling point of Minecraft for me lol

some of the insane stuff you could do with command blocks was awesome

[Drizzt]

i would say that i think Factorio does offer a learning base of the building blocks of programming - digital logic - offered by the circuit network - which i suspect is one of the least utilised features by the majority of the players - even though i imagine most people think it's great that it's there - while also allowing modders to do things like create self replicating factories:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xF--1XdcOeM

and also allows players to "write" basic programs in game to control their factories (e.g. controlling signals to make train platforms open and close based on current resource stocks)

(also, technically, the Grey Goo automated self replicating factory shown in the video above is an in game circuit network creation - just utilizing a few mods - recursive blueprints and the logistic train network)

while i like the idea of games that offer a real programming course - you should be aware that it is even more niche than the audience for this kind of game - and such games do exist (check out Zachtronics' games)

i imagine there is an opportunity for mods to do some of it - but you would still need to simulate a compiler if you want to use C++ or something like that - since we can't hook into a real one in the game - and even Java would require simulating the VM - it's not really feasible

and a DLC to do that would also be a massive amount of work for practically no return

although now i think of it - you could have a little text box that allows you to write some code - and then it tries to translate that into a circuit network setup - very cool - but likely an insane amount of work to implement

i appreciate the dream - i really do - but it is often the way that we want to add all the things we dream about to one game - when really it would be better as a different game

also - as i said - the game does already include basic programming concepts that can be learned as part of playing the game - plus if people want to mod it they will be exposed to lua

i'm not saying i wouldn't appreciate some kind of programming DLC or mod (although as Fel said they might cripple the performance if trying to apply unique code to individual machines) - but i am definitely in the minority - and most of the people it would appeal to probably already know enough code to be able to learn from many sources - and if they don't, what is already in the game may well be enough to peak their interest

and as mentioned - there are quite a few other games that focus on teaching programming - and are probably better suited to the task

but still - now i think about it - i do like the idea of being able to write some code and have it translated into a circuit network setup - would be pretty cool lol :-)

[Mav]

Originally posted by Full Frontal Alchemist:

Originally posted by maveri:

you say "alienate", i say "opotunity to learn coding language".

Think... out of the box, don't be sceptic at the begining

It's better to be a sceptic at the beginning then after the fall. And in this case it's more of being a realist. I would love that coding expansion, you know? That doesn't make me The Audience.

Do you think Columb was sceptic?

[Morsk]

Real programming languages are trying very hard to be overpowered, and games can't be anything like them. The games are so fake, and they tend to immediately change "programming" into "building clocks and other hassles around exact timings" which is ... something, but I don't want to play it.

I have this gripe about fiction & RPGs that try programming-themed magic as well. It's just never going to work. Give me real programming and I'll make a compiler & operating system, or put a death spell in a loop and cast it endlessly. And if I can't, it's not like programming at all.

[ZomBeGone]

Lua is used in a number of games. It is a script language that is easy to use and implement.

Minecraft (modded) has several computer mods that use lua. Great for controlling complex systems like adjusting fuel rods on nuclear reactors based on load averaging or shutting down a reactor before it turns into a giant crater :D

[Drizzt]

Originally posted by Morsk:

Real programming languages are trying very hard to be overpowered, and games can't be anything like them. The games are so fake, and they tend to immediately change "programming" into "building clocks and other hassles around exact timings" which is ... something, but I don't want to play it.

I have this gripe about fiction & RPGs that try programming-themed magic as well. It's just never going to work. Give me real programming and I'll make a compiler & operating system, or put a death spell in a loop and cast it endlessly. And if I can't, it's not like programming at all.

not really sure where you are coming from here

plenty of games successfully incorporate in game programming constructs to greater or lesser degrees

including Factorio

the point isn't that video games can't be used as teaching tools - especially for programming - since they are a good medium for the topic - either as a focus of the game, or through modding interfaces (plenty of professional programmers started by modding)

the argument against including more focused programming tutorial content into Factorio was based on the extremely niche appeal, as well as the appropriateness of it as an engine for such content

there are plenty of games that require the player to write real code - but they are more directly puzzle focused than Factorio - with the code snippets being the answers to the puzzles

but still - someone coded an AI brain into Factorio - and someone made a CPU in Minecraft etc

these games can help teach some programming concepts

but a game like TIS-100 actually teaches assembly code

and there are plenty of other games that use code as their primary focus

the argument is not against the games medium being used as a teaching tool (as it has been for thousands of years) - just against this specific game being entirely appropriate to have a full on coding course incorporated into it

however - for all we know the Expansion may include a live lua interpreter that allows players to program scripts directly in game

and then we will all be proven wrong - and the OP proven correct - and all power to them in that case :-)