Why not make all weapons shoot physically "correct" like the shotgun?

[KungFury]

This is one of the biggest flaws I see in combat of Factorio. Machine gun turrets, laser turrets and the machine guns/pistols of the player dont need to aim. They insta hit their target. You only need to press space when enemies are next to you and you will hit them. Turrets always hit their targets and dont need to aim neither.

This feels absolutely boring and too easy and I think it would be way more fun especially in PvP if you would have to aim with every weapon and if turrets would have a little inaccuracy so that they dont hit 100% the same spot all the time.

The strange thing is that the mechanic is already in game because shotguns work exactkly like this. To me it would also look 10 times more awesome if you could see the bullets fly towards the enemy coming out of all the turrets or your hand weapon.

Does anybody know a mod that does this?


Something like this:
https://www.play3.de/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/Tesla-vs-Lovecraft-4-705x397.jpg

[Zorz]

i asked and told the same a year ago and i got ignored..

[KungFury]

Originally posted by Zorz:

i asked and told the same a year ago and i got ignored..

That is really sad because everything is there... the engine supports it and the tank cannon and shotgun use it. Also the new spitters use it.

Just most other weapons dont use it for some reason and it feels just wrong and like from a game of 1990 or so.

[Stormcaller]

write a mod?

[KungFury]

Originally posted by Stormcaller:

write a mod?

I dont see a reason why this should not be part of vanilla Factorio. Sure it is a bit easier because you dont need to aim, but other than that it is more realistic, looks more awesome and would be better for PvP. And for some people, including me, its even better that the combat would be more challenging too.

[piccolo255]

Aren't the only things with 100% hit accuracy lasers and bullets? Almost all weapons have a "path" and/or target a location, and have a visible projectile: aside from the shotgun, there are rockets, grenades, artillery, flamethrowers... (I haven't used tanks in a long time, but I think tank cannons are like that as well?)

I'm not aware of any mods that change lasers and bullets to behave like all other weapons, but I have never looked for one either :) At the very least, there are many, many mods that add a wide variety of weapons and turrets, so one idea is to make a simple mod to disable weapons you don't like, and then add some mods that fill the void.

Originally posted by Zorz:

i asked and told the same a year ago and i got ignored..

Maybe because it would be a bad idea for vanilla?

Originally posted by Biff Tannen:

I dont see a reason why this should not be part of vanilla Factorio. Sure it is a bit easier because you dont need to aim, but other than that it is more realistic, looks more awesome and would be better for PvP. And for some people, including me, its even better that the combat would be more challenging too.

Lasers are already getting a realistic rework (turned to beams).

Aiming is annoying. New players (and some not-so-new players as well) already find the combat incredibly challenging. Personally, this looks like another one of those things that, if added to vanilla, would make the game substantially worse for a large part of the player base, just to appease a small percentage of players that are combat aficionados.

BTW, try Crimsonland; it's just combat, but I think it's exactly the combat you're looking for :)

[KungFury]

Originally posted by piccolo255:

Aiming is annoying. New players (and some not-so-new players as well) already find the combat incredibly challenging. Personally, this looks like another one of those things that, if added to vanilla, would make the game substantially worse for a large part of the player base, just to appease a small percentage of players that are combat aficionados.

Why would it be annoying? 90% of combat is done by your turrets and the turrets would aim for you. They just would be calculated more correct and would have a visible path and sometimes miss their target.
And for the player combat I dont see a big problem because players normally start attacking biter bases when they have a tank and then they already need to aim because for the tank the aiming works already the way I was asking for.

Originally posted by Senpai-kun:

There is a bullet trails mod which makes the hitscan path of the bullets visible, and a laser beams mod which turns the goofy laser projectiles into solid hitscan beams as well.

As for all shots being projectiles which have to be aimed, Factorio isn't, at heart, a tower defense or combat game. Yes, there is combat in Factorio, but no, that does not mean that the combat is the highest priority. As long as it works, that's all that really matters.

Focus on launching your rocket. The biters aren't supposed to be consuming this much of your attention.

When a game has more than 1/3 (maybe 1/2) of combat technologies and items its definately not something I would call low priority. Also the rest already works very well, so why not improve the rest of the game, even if many people dont use it a lot?
A big player base likes to play against the AI as a challenge and the past has shown that the developers know that too. They added PvP settings, wave defense, the tank and many other things to improve that part of the game, so improving the rest is just consequent.


And for the people like you who dont like combat at all or find it annoying, there are plenty of options to disable combat at all. So why argueing against something you dont use if people want it?

[Thryden]

Originally posted by Biff Tannen:

So why argueing against something you dont use if people want it?

So far only you and Zorz are the only two people who have said they wanted it. That barely categorizes as people.

You say 1/3 of tech tree is military, I'm not ingame so I can't check but I don't think it's that much. Even if it is, look at the different techs in the military and if you categorize them there aren't nearly as many. Almost every type of gun has three techs, one to unlock it, one to increase it's shooting speed, and one to increase it's damage. Some even have a fourth that unlock a slightly more powerful version of the gun or ammo.

So while the military may have a large amount of the tech, the content that unlocks from that tech is a lot less. If you look at the weapon category of an unmodded game with everything unlocked, it has the least amount of items. So combat definitely is a smaller aspect of the game.

I play with biters sometimes, and I love the auto-aiming. I'm not playing this game to play a shooter game; I'm playing to expand a factory.

Anyway, while I was typing this, I just realized Factorio does have what you asked for (not for turrets, but for guns). Don't press space when shooting, press C. C will shoot at anything you have your mouse on(not just enemies), so you have to be constantly "aiming" with your mouse if you want to hit those biters.

[KungFury]

Originally posted by Bramblestar:

Originally posted by Biff Tannen:

So why argueing against something you dont use if people want it?

So far only you and Zorz are the only two people who have said they wanted it. That barely categorizes as people.

You say 1/3 of tech tree is military, I'm not ingame so I can't check but I don't think it's that much. Even if it is, look at the different techs in the military and if you categorize them there aren't nearly as many. Almost every type of gun has three techs, one to unlock it, one to increase it's shooting speed, and one to increase it's damage. Some even have a fourth that unlock a slightly more powerful version of the gun or ammo.

So while the military may have a large amount of the tech, the content that unlocks from that tech is a lot less. If you look at the weapon category of an unmodded game with everything unlocked, it has the least amount of items. So combat definitely is a smaller aspect of the game.

I play with biters sometimes, and I love the auto-aiming. I'm not playing this game to play a shooter game; I'm playing to expand a factory.

Anyway, while I was typing this, I just realized Factorio does have what you asked for (not for turrets, but for guns). Don't press space when shooting, press C. C will shoot at anything you have your mouse on(not just enemies), so you have to be constantly "aiming" with your mouse if you want to hit those biters.

Only because you just saw two people asking for this does not mean that we are the only two people who want this... Factorio is played by sever thousand people and maybe 1-5% of them are normally posting on forums.

Just have alook at the tech tree and you will see that what you say is not true:
https://davemcw.com/factorio/tech-tree/

I would even say that half of the techs are for combat and even if you say that many of these techs are only duplicates because they just increase a value, then it still stays that many of the techs are for combat because your arguement is true for the civilian techs as well (just look at the 13 mining productivity techs for example).

And pressing "c" does not help in any way because you can only target objects and then the weapon isntantly hits. That has nothing to do with a "physical" calculation of the projectile and is not what I am asking for.

[Kinder Lijk]

Originally posted by Biff Tannen:

And pressing "c" does not help in any way because you can only target objects and then the weapon isntantly hits. That has nothing to do with a "physical" calculation of the projectile and is not what I am asking for.

What you're asking for would significantly change the way combat works and most players would just find it more tedious because Factorio isn't about combat, it's about automation.

If you want more challenge from combat, download some mods, I dnno which but there are a couple that'll intensify the 'tower defense' aspect of the game.

[KungFury]

Originally posted by Kinder Lijk:

Originally posted by Biff Tannen:

And pressing "c" does not help in any way because you can only target objects and then the weapon isntantly hits. That has nothing to do with a "physical" calculation of the projectile and is not what I am asking for.

What you're asking for would significantly change the way combat works and most players would just find it more tedious because Factorio isn't about combat, it's about automation.

If you want more challenge from combat, download some mods, I dnno which but there are a couple that'll intensify the 'tower defense' aspect of the game.

As I have written, it would NOT change the way as much as you fear. Turrets would work the same way as they work now, just that the projectiles would be calculated and the Tank, the main combat unit for mid-late game already does this the exact way I am asking for. The only difference would be in the early game where you would attack biters with your machine gun or pistol.
The main improvement coming from this change would be more immersive and way better looking combat, especially for turrets.

[piccolo255]

Originally posted by Biff Tannen:

Why would it be annoying? 90% of combat is done by your turrets and the turrets would aim for you. They just would be calculated more correct and would have a visible path and sometimes miss their target.
And for the player combat I dont see a big problem because players normally start attacking biter bases when they have a tank and then they already need to aim because for the tank the aiming works already the way I was asking for.

In that case, just make the bullets more expensive. Say, 30% worse accuracy just means you'll waste 30% more resources to defend against the same number of enemies, so the exact same effect can be achieved by making bullets 30% more expensive.

And when players start going to clear bases depends very, very much on map settings. Sometimes, you have to do it with a pistol.

Originally posted by Biff Tannen:

When a game has more than 1/3 (maybe 1/2) of combat technologies and items its definately not something I would call low priority.

I did a quick count. About ~40 combat-related techs (some of those are about to be merged, so the number will go down in 0.17) and ~80 non-combat techs, counting each "bonus" tech only once. That's about 1/3 of techs. About ~40 combat items, and about ~170 non-combat items; that's about 1/4 of items.

Also, here's a quote from developers:[www.factorio.com]

This makes it even more clear that the Military science pack is a separate branch of science. It depends on the progression of your factory, but its sole purpose is to deal with the distraction - the enemies - from your main goal.

That sounds kinda low-ish priority to me :)

Originally posted by Biff Tannen:

A big player base likes to play against the AI as a challenge and the past has shown that the developers know that too. They added PvP settings, wave defense, the tank and many other things to improve that part of the game, so improving the rest is just consequent.

Citation needed. I'm pretty sure it's just a loud minority.

Whether your suggestion would "improve" the combat or not is subjective; I firmly believe it would make it worse.

Originally posted by Biff Tannen:

And for the people like you who dont like combat at all or find it annoying, there are plenty of options to disable combat at all. So why argueing against something you dont use if people want it?

People who play on the peaceful mode don't comment in this topic. I want, as the devs say, "a distraction", an obstacle. Not a complete different game genre I have to master.

[walter]

Originally posted by Biff Tannen:

Originally posted by Zorz:

i asked and told the same a year ago and i got ignored..

That is really sad because everything is there... the engine supports it and the tank cannon and shotgun use it. Also the new spitters use it.

Just most other weapons dont use it for some reason and it feels just wrong and like from a game of 1990 or so.

Ever thought about that this might be a deliberate design decision?
Since the bugs move pretty fast and can be difficult to see depending on the terrain it might be the devs intention to have weapons that dont need actual aiming.

Spitters and worms btw have guided projectiles - they always hit you even if the projectile looks like a proper object.

[Kinder Lijk]

Originally posted by Biff Tannen:

Originally posted by Kinder Lijk:

What you're asking for would significantly change the way combat works and most players would just find it more tedious because Factorio isn't about combat, it's about automation.

If you want more challenge from combat, download some mods, I dnno which but there are a couple that'll intensify the 'tower defense' aspect of the game.

As I have written, it would NOT change the way as much as you fear. Turrets would work the same way as they work now, just that the projectiles would be calculated and the Tank, the main combat unit for mid-late game already does this the exact way I am asking for. The only difference would be in the early game where you would attack biters with your machine gun or pistol.
The main improvement coming from this change would be more immersive and way better looking combat, especially for turrets.

Well, you're wrong.
I'm not using tanks inside my factory for defense, in case biters break through, I'm using my SMG.
I'm not going to want to aim manually when biters are eating part of my factory and risk hitting my machines.
This "main difference only in early game" would make biters so annoying, I'd just end up turning them off.

But I don't wanna turn them off, I like that there's sometimes a bunch of biters pushing against my defenses, I like having an evolving force constantly pushing against my walls. I like having to keep in mind that I need to upkeep and upgrade my defenses and keep them fed with ammo.

This would not improve the game at all, it would just make biters annoying to deal with early game (considering you'd constantly be shooting up your own factory) and then when proper defenses are up, interactions with biters goes down to a minimum anyway. (And this is pretty soon)
It might look a little cooler when I decide to stand around my wall and look at biter forces being shot later in the game but it's not worth the annoyance every time something'd get into my factory.

[KungFury]

Originally posted by piccolo255:

Stuff...

Sorry, but I still completely dont agree with you.

1. making the bullets more expensive is something completely different than to give bullets a semi correct physics. It looks completely different, feels completely different and plays completely different.

2. 1/3. of unique techs and more than 1/2 or duplicate techs is not what I would call a low priority.

3. your quote from the developer does not support your arguement. Even in first person shooters the GOAL of the player is not to kill all enemies but its most of the time to reach another big target and combat is nearly in every game just a distraction or a challenge to reach that goal. For example I just play Metro Last Light and the goal is not to kill but to reach the end of the map or to find an NPC called the dark one. In factorio it would be to build the rocket while surviving is the challenge.

4. people who play the pieceful mode dont need to comment on this topic. Because they still can. Nothing changes for them.


I would bet 100 dollars vs. 1 dollar that IF Factorio would have the combat mechanic as I have described right from the beginning, people would complain a LOT if a patch would switch it to the way we have it now. Its often that when people get used to somethign they fear the "new" even if its better.

[Kinder Lijk]

Originally posted by Biff Tannen:

bla

Veteran players are telling you these would be significant (and unwanted) changes, you saying it would not "change the way as much as you fear" just tells me you haven't played as much of this game as you think you have.

Just download mods to make combat more difficult if that's your thing, changing the way guns shoot is a bad idea and it's not gonna happen anyway.