Factorio

Factorio

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DragonHalo99 Dec 13, 2018 @ 9:44pm
Need some rail network advice
So my idea was to build intersections like this around my double track rail network. https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1590330464
I figured with these placed strategically around trains could pass one another without any issues but trains are meeting one another. haven't had a crash yet but I am only running three trains consisting of 2 locos and 4 wagon's. Is it better to just make everything one way? Is the train pathing smart enough for trains to get around one another when they are on the same track with a crossover ahead of them?
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1590337526
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1590337480
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1590337376
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1590337293
This is pretty much how ive laid the rail network out.
If I want to make everything one way I have to redo the track on a few stations
Last edited by DragonHalo99; Dec 13, 2018 @ 9:56pm
Originally posted by Killcreek2:
Originally posted by DragonHalo99:
I figured with these placed strategically around trains could pass one another without any issues but trains are meeting one another. haven't had a crash yet but I am only running three trains consisting of 2 locos and 4 wagon's.
Ohh, you have a double-track but two-direction rail system. They do not scale up very well, as you need to install extra "passing bays" per additional train that will be using the network.
Furthermore, you are dramatically limiting your throughput, as only 1 train can use a straight section of track at a time.

The layout & signal setup you show in your pics can only support 3 trains total safely, if you try to use more than that & they attempt to all cross the same junction / section of track at once, it will very likely result in a deadlock situation.

Is it better to just make everything one way? Is the train pathing smart enough for trains to get around one another when they are on the same track with a crossover ahead of them?
Generally speaking: yes, if you want decent throughput (though a 2-way rail line is an excellent budget option for early game, when steel is scarce & throughput requirments are very low);
& yes ~ they are smart enough to avoid collisions with other automatic trains ~ they actually "reserve" track ahead of themselves up to their braking point (notice the signals turning yellow when an automatic train approaches, but they do not turn yellow if a manually-driven train approaches). They will try to avoid manually-driven player trains too, but sometimes there is just not enough braking room / alternate route for them to avoid a collision.


Though, it should be easy for you to convert that double-track system to double one-direction rails. Like an IRL highway system / motorway. One side is outbound lane, the other is the return lane. ~ This allows a much denser level of traffic on the rails (trains can be nose-to-tail), thus far higher throughput can be achieved for similar construction costs.


edit ~ formatting errors
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Killcreek2 Dec 13, 2018 @ 10:56pm 
Originally posted by DragonHalo99:
I figured with these placed strategically around trains could pass one another without any issues but trains are meeting one another. haven't had a crash yet but I am only running three trains consisting of 2 locos and 4 wagon's.
Ohh, you have a double-track but two-direction rail system. They do not scale up very well, as you need to install extra "passing bays" per additional train that will be using the network.
Furthermore, you are dramatically limiting your throughput, as only 1 train can use a straight section of track at a time.

The layout & signal setup you show in your pics can only support 3 trains total safely, if you try to use more than that & they attempt to all cross the same junction / section of track at once, it will very likely result in a deadlock situation.

Is it better to just make everything one way? Is the train pathing smart enough for trains to get around one another when they are on the same track with a crossover ahead of them?
Generally speaking: yes, if you want decent throughput (though a 2-way rail line is an excellent budget option for early game, when steel is scarce & throughput requirments are very low);
& yes ~ they are smart enough to avoid collisions with other automatic trains ~ they actually "reserve" track ahead of themselves up to their braking point (notice the signals turning yellow when an automatic train approaches, but they do not turn yellow if a manually-driven train approaches). They will try to avoid manually-driven player trains too, but sometimes there is just not enough braking room / alternate route for them to avoid a collision.


Though, it should be easy for you to convert that double-track system to double one-direction rails. Like an IRL highway system / motorway. One side is outbound lane, the other is the return lane. ~ This allows a much denser level of traffic on the rails (trains can be nose-to-tail), thus far higher throughput can be achieved for similar construction costs.


edit ~ formatting errors
Last edited by Killcreek2; Dec 13, 2018 @ 10:56pm
DragonHalo99 Dec 13, 2018 @ 11:12pm 
@Killcreek2 thanks man. I have to redo a bunch of signals and change up a few stations but it proably shouldn't take much effort to resignal stuff. this is my first attempt at making trains use a main line. before I just made each train its own track but was trying something different this game. trying to knock out lazy bastadd and a few other achievments this game as well.
DragonHalo99 Dec 13, 2018 @ 11:15pm 
Only thing I am not sure about is how to balance a whole mine into 4 rail carrages. thats the issue I am going to have with my large coal mine once the miners mine out the sides of the coal deposit.
Killcreek2 Dec 13, 2018 @ 11:46pm 
You are most welcome. :)
If you use personal construction bots, you can program a deconstruction planner to remove only the unwanted signals (R-click the red planner to set filters), & use a blueprint to apply the new 1-way signalling for your junctions &etc afterwards. I found them to be a great time-saver, while designing my own rail blueprints book.

Originally posted by DragonHalo99:
Only thing I am not sure about is how to balance a whole mine into 4 rail carrages. thats the issue I am going to have with my large coal mine once the miners mine out the sides of the coal deposit.
There are a few ways to do this:

1> Belt splitter system: Take the mine output belt & split into 2 belts, split each of those to 2 more. Giving 4 total belts, each with 1/4 of the mines output. Route each 1/4 belt to a different cargo wagon for even loading. Scale-up as needed based on mine output Vs number of wagons. (You are lucky you chose a power-of-two number of carriages, as that is super simple to split-ter evenly. Odd numbers take up more room, due to the belt balancers requiring feedback loops.)

2> A simple control circuit: 1 combinator linked to the loading-into-chest inserters, that keeps them roughly evenly balanced based on the chest contents, thus ensuring even wagon loading. ~ Has same effect as #1, but smaller footprint & can support odd numbers of wagons much more easily. (Can supply a sample BP or pic, if you require.)

3> Logi Bots. (Though this works much better imo, when combined with #2 ~ using a "set requests" control circuit).

You can use similar setups for unloading too, with a few tweaks.

Personally, I prefer belt based with smart circuit (#2) for loading at mines & other low-throughput items, and prefer to use bot based (#3) for unloading (especially bulk items), as the station footprint is smaller (though the power requirements are much higher when using bots).
I have a very-high-speed station design featuring active providers & circuit-based inserter throttling. Kinda requires a good understanding of the logistics network & (virtual) circuit mechanics to setup / work well, but always keeps the wagons perfectly balanced & gives excellent throughput (above 4 blue belts per wagon for stack50 items such as ores, 5 per wagon for stack 100, 6-7 per wagon for stack 200).
astrosha Dec 14, 2018 @ 3:16am 
Originally posted by DragonHalo99:
Only thing I am not sure about is how to balance a whole mine into 4 rail carrages. thats the issue I am going to have with my large coal mine once the miners mine out the sides of the coal deposit.

Personally, I went and looked up a book of belt balancer blueprints.

I usually run LCCCC trains, but I'm trying LLCCCC in my current game (with one LTT for sulfuric acid to uranium mines; and a couple LCC for a few other purposes). So however many lined of belts I've got coming off of my ore patch, I run it through a balancer designed with that many belts input, and 4 belts output. If there are 6 lines of belts from the mine, I run a 6 to 4 balancer. If the patch is tiny enough I only get 2 or 3 lines from it, then I'll run that to 4 balancer. This ensures that the cargo wagons get an even distribution of the raw material.

Unloading I tend to run them through balancers as well, before they go into the smelting column. This allows for relatively smooth unloading of a train, as long as at least one smelting column is looking for the ore.

You can try to synchronize the arm movements of your stack inserters if you wish, via the circuit network. I don't really see any point in doing this. Of course, once you start using bots for your loading/unloading, balancing becomes a different proposition entirely, one more about placement of supply chests vs demand chests, since bots tend to take from the closer box if multiple boxes containing teh desired item are present.
Maelstrom Dec 14, 2018 @ 3:53am 
As long as all your trains are using the same fuel they'll all travel at the same speed. You don't really need to worry about them passing each other, if your trains are blocking each other a lot on turns you should focus on removing left turns.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1590470222

A lot of people rag on roundabouts but I've never had any issues with them.
Last edited by Maelstrom; Dec 14, 2018 @ 3:59am
Killcreek2 Dec 14, 2018 @ 3:58am 
Originally posted by astrosha:
You can try to synchronize the arm movements of your stack inserters if you wish, via the circuit network. I don't really see any point in doing this.

You actually stated the #1 reason for synchronising inserters in the same paragraph:
since bots tend to take from the closer box if multiple boxes containing the desired item are present.
This is why I use throttled inserters into active providers ~ they only remove as much as is needed from the train to meet the current demand, meaning the chests never get over-filled & so the wagons always unload evenly (unlike with a basic passive provider setup). Chest position does not matter at all with this approach.

It is actually easier to control the inserters via the logistic network, no wires or combinators are needed to make it work.
DragonHalo99 Dec 14, 2018 @ 6:01am 
If I wasn't also doing logistic network embargo I would love to play with bots. I have ideas! I am basically doing lazy bastard, Raining Bullets, Steam all the way and Logistic network embargo this game. This is also the first game I have built a main belt instead of spaghetti. I rage quit my last attempt on these achievements when I learned about the main bus and realized I had to completely rebuild my factory to do that. Didn't help that the .16 experimental dropped that same day killing my save. I am using rail world for my current map. I like trains.
AlexMBrennan Dec 14, 2018 @ 6:32am 
This is pretty much how ive laid the rail network out.
None of these work - the central intersection is one block, and as a result only one train can use the intersection at a time even when their paths don't intersect. You **need** to break up the big central block.

Is the train pathing smart enough for trains to get around one another
No. AI pathfinding will advance as far as possible, and since you allow trains from either side to stop in either lane they can block both lanes.

they only remove as much as is needed from the train to meet the current demand
Wait, are you saying that you want nearly empty trains to hang around instead of finishing the job and doing something useful? Are we trying to minimize or maximize throughput here?
DragonHalo99 Dec 14, 2018 @ 6:56am 
Wait when did I say that last part @alex. I have the trains setup so that each wagon of ore unloads into it's own smelting line when it gets into the station at the main belt. I probably went overkill since each wagon of ore is feeding to 50 furnaces and I'm not sure fast transport belts are going to be enough for 50 steel furnaces. My coal train schedule is set up to deliver coal to the power plant receiving and to the main belt line. But I might want a second coal train. I am away from my PC because I am working atm so can't post screenshots.
Last edited by DragonHalo99; Dec 14, 2018 @ 6:59am
Killcreek2 Dec 14, 2018 @ 7:10am 
Originally posted by DragonHalo99:
If I wasn't also doing logistic network embargo I would love to play with bots. I have ideas! I am basically doing lazy bastard, Raining Bullets, Steam all the way and Logistic network embargo this game. This is also the first game I have built a main belt instead of spaghetti. I rage quit my last attempt on these achievements when I learned about the main bus and realized I had to completely rebuild my factory to do that. Didn't help that the .16 experimental dropped that same day killing my save. I am using rail world for my current map. I like trains.
Ambitious mix, good for you! It seems you learned a lot from your previous factories.

Trains are very useful, once you get the hang of signalling & settle on a consistent design to use in that world.
I suggest you take Alex's advice & re-design your 4-way & T-junctions though, so you can fit chain signals inside to break up the blocks & allow better train throughput. It really makes a difference when you have dozens of trains zipping about.



Originally posted by AlexMBrennan:
Originally posted by Killcreek2:
they only remove as much as is needed from the train to meet the current demand
Wait, are you saying that you want nearly empty trains to hang around instead of finishing the job and doing something useful? Are we trying to minimize or maximize throughput here?
I think you misunderstood the purpose behind it.
I use a 10-seconds-worth item buffer amount programmed into the station (to cover train out-in cycle downtimes). As items are placed onto the output belts, the same amount is removed from the train wagons evenly, maintaining that 10sec buffer but avoiding buffer overflow.
The setup I briefly described is designed to cope with any level of throughput requirement from zero to maximised, automagically.
Trains are set to "wait until empty". (Why would I send a partly-unloaded train anywhere else? It is already doing something useful by being at the unloading stop with some cargo ~ exactly where it is needed.)

edit - formatting. again.
Last edited by Killcreek2; Dec 14, 2018 @ 7:11am
DragonHalo99 Dec 14, 2018 @ 7:16am 
I was reading a steam guide for the junction's I basically mimicked the junction's in the guide. You wouldn't happen to have better screenshots of junction's you use would you @AlexMBrennan and @killcreek2? My smelting setup, Main belt design and balancer's I am going to use for my factory comes from Katherine of sky's steam guide on main belts. https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=875859174 is the guide I read about rail junction's. Basically I wasn't sure how to use the chain signals in a rail network. The first screenshot I posted of a crossover junction was one I made.
Last edited by DragonHalo99; Dec 14, 2018 @ 7:31am
Killcreek2 Dec 14, 2018 @ 7:57am 
KoS has some useful guides here on steam, the tips & tricks one I still refer to from time to time.
That rails guide is good, but there is a better / more-comprehensive one for rail networks available on reddit / imgur ~ https://www.reddit.com/r/factorio/comments/4f38sk/factorio_train_automation_complete_parts_23_and/


Here are a couple of pics for you. I use a 6-tile-gap LHD network, but the signalling / blocks principle is the same for a 4-gap &/or RHD versions (though the track positions might need adjusting to fit in the chain signals, especially for a RHD 4-way).

4-way ~ https://i.imgur.com/5qJoC3L.png?1
Ultra-compact, has the same footprint as a roundabout (making it easy to use the cheaper roundabouts in early game, then upgrade to a full junction later when there are more trains active).

T-junction ~ https://i.imgur.com/Ayrvuhw.png?1
Note: the signals on that T-junction are in slightly odd positions, as it is designed so that the 4-way can simply be placed over the top to upgrade it, & without having to remove anything. (They could be placed closer, for a slight throughput gain.)

I also have some straight-to-diagonal V- & Y- junctions ~ https://i.imgur.com/qA22tIa.png?1
DragonHalo99 Dec 14, 2018 @ 8:17am 
Awesome thanks again @killcreek2. One more question how many mines do I want to set up at one time? I just made sure I had 2 fresh mines set up for copper, coal, and iron for the main belt. I went to war with a car to claim the coal mine and several other mines. Can't count how many times I died to running into a rock and biters surrounded and killed me and the car.
Killcreek2 Dec 14, 2018 @ 9:08am 
Number of mines depends on your smelting requirements, size / distance of deposit, & level of mining productivity research. Also modules / beacons used (if any). Varies a lot during a typical game.
But, securing more mines than you currently need is a good idea regardless ~ the more you link up, the better (within reason, heh). Miners have zero electricity drain when idle, thank the devs, so there is not really any downside to building extras before you actually need them.

You can get a rough eyeball estimate by counting the number of full belts of ore output from each mine, & comparing that you your smelter inputs (assuming the belts are flowing freely & mostly fully compacted). The (P)roduction overview screen might also help to give a better idea.

For a rough ratio (if similar ore patch amounts): 4x iron ore : 2-3x copper ore : 1x coal : 1x stone. Scale-up & adjust the ratio as needed for your mapgen / tech progress / &etc.



At least you can drive the car (or tank) ~ that is one part of the game I still suck hard at. >_<
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Date Posted: Dec 13, 2018 @ 9:44pm
Posts: 16