Science in end game?

[jonbrave]

Vanilla, I've launched a few rockets.

I do realize you can set whatever "goals" you feel like once you have launched your first rocket. But I'd like to know what "you people" do about science research at this stage?

I read about people maximizing their number/frequency of rocket launches from then on, and I'm happy to work on that. My question is: do you "make yourself" still do science research to use up all those incoming white beakers, or whether you abandon science and just do rocket count?

I have researched everything I'm interested in, and done a couple of "infinite" improvements. But I don't need/want any more. I play peaceful, so it's not like I want any of the military improvements to go blow up biters.

Keeping up with the ever-increasing large number of all beakers required, compared against doing no science and just doing rockets, is a big strain. Especially if you set yourself some kind of goal like "Don't launch another rocket till you have used all science beakers from the last one".

So, when I read about large numbers of repeated, fast rocket launches, are these people typically still doing science at the same time, or have they abandoned it?

[astrosha]

Follower Robot Count is the only infinite tech (in Vanilla) that uses all 7 types of science. Everything else is only 6.

Most people are consuming that science, however. Typically a few levels of robot worker speed, but mostly Mining Productivity. The robot one is generally only done to "prove" they are producing (and thus, using) X science per minute, where X is some multiple of 1000.

Of course, I could be mistaken. This is the general sense I get from things. Most people stop after launching one rocket, the game's arbitrary victory condition. Megabase producers are not the majority of Factorio players.

[jonbrave]

@astrosha
Thank you for commenting.

Then I think I don't understand. At least, if by "Most people are consuming that science" you mean consuming all the white science beakers between launches. Since the number of science required keeps increasing, I am currently on 15k science for next Mining Productivity, and that will rise when completed. When I read people saying "I'm launching 10 rockets per minute", or whatever number, how can they keep consuming ever-increasing tens-of-thousands of science multiple times per minute?!

[Katitoff]

If you don't want to expand the factory only for the sake of expanding and want to actually have a goal, try SpaceEX mod, it adds some end-game post rocket launch techs that will force you to expand.

[jonbrave]

I did suspect someone might suggest that! Hence I said I am in vanilla now, and want to continue here for a while with a goal. I will look at SpaceEx for a future new game :)

[Fel]

Publicado originalmente por jonbrave:

how can they keep consuming ever-increasing tens-of-thousands of science multiple times per minute?!

If you increase the production of all science packs at the same time, all you need to consume them is to increase the number of lab (and use modules +beacons on them).
There is nothing stopping you from having several thousand labs for example.

[Katitoff]

Publicado originalmente por jonbrave:

I did suspect someone might suggest that! Hence I said I am in vanilla now, and want to continue here for a while with a goal. I will look at SpaceEx for a future new game :)

I will still recommend it.
It changes nothing in the vanila content, only gives you a purpose post rocket launch.
Its selling point is expensive end game research that do five you another long-term goal instead of being "stuck" with infinity research.

[AlexMBrennan]

I have researched everything I'm interested in, and done a couple of "infinite" improvements. But I don't need/want any more

That is why infinite mining productivity research exists - you will always benefit from doing science.

[jonbrave]

OK, you guys can increase your production and science burning to keep up with the rockets, but I can't! The science beakers required i think double (I don't have the game to hand) per each level researched, so if I'm to consume all the white beakers for each launch, I'll need to double total production/consumption each time. Give or take. And since I understand people are launching, say, multiple rockets per minute, that will mean multiple-doubles of total output per minute. So I have to say I'm astounded that you all manage this....

[Fel]

Each level of infinite science has more cycles but they all require 1 of each science per cycle, meaning that you only need to increase the production of other sciences as much as you do space science.
Given the producion cost of rocket and satelite, if you have the resources to increase the launch rates you most likely have the resources to increase the production of all of the other science packs at the same rate.


Also, not all infinite technologies double in cost, mining productivity and follower robot count increase linearly while artillery shell speed tripples each time.

[jonbrave]

I'm trying to understand what you're saying, but I don't think I do,.

In any case, for me any increase in factory/science would make my "as fast/much as I can manage" for launching rockets collapse! In fact, the kind of point of my question is that I really need to shut down science production/consumption completely to stand any chance of getting anywhere on lots of rockets! Or even a few rockets. So that's one thing.

And another thing is: if I have to burn thousands of beakers between launches that would cripple my launch-rate.

Once I have launched first rocket I have done all the research I need and I look forward to not doing any more research at all so that I can try rocket speed/number!

[Katitoff]

Publicado originalmente por jonbrave:

I'm trying to understand what you're saying, but I don't think I do,.

In any case, for me any increase in factory/science would make my "as fast/much as I can manage" for launching rockets collapse! In fact, the kind of point of my question is that I really need to shut down science production/consumption completely to stand any chance of getting anywhere on lots of rockets! Or even a few rockets. So that's one thing.

And another thing is: if I have to burn thousands of beakers between launches that would cripple my launch-rate.

Once I have launched first rocket I have done all the research I need and I look forward to not doing any more research at all so that I can try rocket speed/number!

You can get to rocket and launch first one with whatever.

Upscaling your factory and mining as well as optimizing production and supply chains is all there is in vanila. If you don't want any mods, you need to set yourself goals.

Hell, you could just let your factory go on whatever it goes and try to build new one that produces 2x, 3x or 50x as much science.

This is really all factorio is about and there isn't anything else to it in vanila as ultimate goal of vanila is to launch first rocket.

[astrosha]

Publicado originalmente por jonbrave:

I'm trying to understand what you're saying, but I don't think I do,.

In any case, for me any increase in factory/science would make my "as fast/much as I can manage" for launching rockets collapse! In fact, the kind of point of my question is that I really need to shut down science production/consumption completely to stand any chance of getting anywhere on lots of rockets! Or even a few rockets. So that's one thing.

And another thing is: if I have to burn thousands of beakers between launches that would cripple my launch-rate.

Once I have launched first rocket I have done all the research I need and I look forward to not doing any more research at all so that I can try rocket speed/number!

Usually, if you are producing, say, 2k science/minute, you are producing that with all of the sciences and are then consuming that much with your labs.

If you want to increase that just over 2 rockets per minute to, say, just over 5 rockets per minute, that would mean that you would likely want to scale up your red science, green science, etc. production up similarly, as well as your labs.

Of course, this IS a rather open-ended game. You are allowed to create your own goals. If you want to hit 100 rockets per minute, without regard to producing and using science, go for it! You just would not really be able to do much with 100,000 white science per minute without scaling up your other science, in order to feed it all into labs.

That said, reading your posts I get the impression you are operating under the assumption that you need to consume all the science, and finish the research, before the next launch. If you really wanted to, you could set up an incredibly large storage area for space science. It stacks to 1000 (only thing in vanilla that does) so a single Storage Chest would hold 48,000. An array, 10 by 20, of such storage chests would hold 9.6 million space science. Would that be sufficient for you to stockpile some until you ramp up production and consumption of the other colors? If not, then you can always add more storage chests ...

[jonbrave]

Publicado originalmente por astrosha:

If you want to increase that just over 2 rockets per minute to, say, just over 5 rockets per minute, that would mean that you would likely want to scale up your red science, green science, etc. production up similarly, as well as your labs.

Indeed! However, although I haven't timed it, I suspect I am much closer to, say, 1 rocket every 10 minutes! And that is using as best as I can all my rocket production plus all my science production!

Publicado originalmente por astrosha:

Of course, this IS a rather open-ended game. You are allowed to create your own goals. If you want to hit 100 rockets per minute, without regard to producing and using science, go for it!

I am thinking I won't even get anywhere 1 rocket per minute while I do any science as well!

Publicado originalmente por astrosha:

That said, reading your posts I get the impression you are operating under the assumption that you need to consume all the science, and finish the research, before the next launch.

I am well aware that I do not need to consume all the white science between launches. The whole point of my question is whether you/those reporting multiple rockets per minute are or are not self-imposing this requirement? I am thinking that if I made myself do so it would make my launches even further apart as I strained to keep up with the other beakers' science production/consumption, let alone just producing the rockets!

Perhaps I am trying to get some idea of the necessary scale, as I seem to be so far away! Just as a "for example", if you looked at my production of the 3 end products required for a rocket (Rocket Control/Low Density/Rocket Fuel) I am nowhere near filling full belts of yellow with each of these to send to the launchpad! Should I be?! :)

[Fel]

From your posts it seems like you are not planning to expand your mining operations to more/further outposts in order to get the resources needed.

Bases that are sending a lot of rockets like that are usually called "mega base" because of the scale required to produce those items in large quantity, just the part feeding the rocket is already pretty massive.
One of the reasons why people produce the other sciences as well is because of mining productivity that lets your mining outposts produce way more ores before running out, which is prety nice because otherwise you would have to make new outposts even more frequently.

[jonbrave]

FWIW, though I don't suppose you can tell very much from it, here is my base:

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2368925866

I'm exhausted just keeping it up to this size :)

[Aside: "mining productivity that lets your mining outposts produce way more ores before running out" --- I thought it only increased [i]speed[/i] of mining, not amount?]