Space exploration is pulling teeth

[The Ohio Question]

I hear how great it is, but it seems so needlessly convoluted and frankly silly to do even basic things. Why does everything, EVERYTHING, need 5 extra steps? why do the new formulas feel like the mod dev just made everything hyper expensive for jollies? why are there so many steps in production that go nowhere save like one part? why are the biters so bloody fast and you cant build anywhere close to there nests?

Why, in a game that stresses creativity, does this mod seem to hard lock you out of so much? Why do people like it so much?!

Iv pumped 100+ hours into several attempts, and i think im just done at this point. Well done mod maker, youv made your own creation a chore to play.

If the actual expansion gos the space rout, i pray its not nearly as obtuse as space exploration.

[Fel]

One thing to remember is that a lot of mods that expand on the crafting recipes have their root on bob, angel and their predecessors, which are all mods for people that want more complex recipe chains.

Space exploration is not as extreme but it definitely is not a mod that is balanced around vanilla's recipes, mostly because a pretty big part of the people using mods do so for the extra complexity.

[The Ohio Question]

Messaggio originale di Fel:

One thing to remember is that a lot of mods that expand on the crafting recipes have their root on bob, angel and their predecessors, which are all mods for people that want more complex recipe chains.

Space exploration is not as extreme but it definitely is not a mod that is balanced around vanilla's recipes, mostly because a pretty big part of the people using mods do so for the extra complexity.

I guess its just not for me then, because the expanded steps in basic production has killed any curiosity of the mod.

Essentially i wanted the new content, not all the basic stuff to be more complex, but alas.

[DCYW]

Are you playing on peaceful mode or death match map?
If you playing on death match map, yes you have a huge disadvantage against them hording at your base and player.

[Aaron]

Don't try to play it alone, get a friend to play with you, preferably one with Autism

[Warlord]

I'm really trying to give Space Exploration a go. I'm bored to tears of the basic game production chain, especially the beginning. This one goes a bit far for me though. What's perhaps the most frustrating is the requirement to craft each tier of an item before you can do the next. That does wonders for recycling old components, but it is really frustrating to have to craft a thousand stone furnaces to craft a thousand steel furnaces to make a thousand electric furnaces. Add to that the extra complexity of the new resource hungry ingredient to electric furnaces, and it gets on my nerves. I guess having a use for stone later on in the game is fun, but that is what the stone tablet circuit recipe is for.

And low-level motors are nice, but its strange that electric motors DON'T need the basic motor. And that both of these are needed in such HUGE quantities, but they only stack to 50, like engines.

As for combat, I don't think I've noticed a change at all. The biters aren't any faster, harder, or smarter than vanilla, though I can't seem to find out where some biters manage to sneak in and munch on my circuit production.

[RiO]

Messaggio originale di Warlord:

low-level motors are nice

Either you haven't played enough of Space Exploration yet for the sheer quantity of required motors for everything to grow from minor annoyance to constant pain in the sides; or you've played so much of it that you've developed Stockholm Syndrome.

The idea of low-level motors is nice; but the execution of the idea is abysmal.
For comparison: just to sustain up an extremely basic 1.5 p/sec of basic terrestrial science, you need a dedicated small electric motors build that swallows up an entire 15 p/sec of copper plate.


The motors case isn't an isolated occurrence either. The sheer volume of resources everything in Space Exploration demands, pretty much requires that you stay small and stay on a drip until you've managed to tech up to the point where you can launch into space; have located a vulcanite; iron; and copper world; have colonized those worlds; and have set up automated rockets to return those resources to your main base and smelt them.

Any other attempt to scale up - especially without using the more efficient vulcanite based smelting recipes - is doomed to having you burn through most of the resources within easy reach on Nauvis and forcing you to chew through massive biter-infested areas to claim more patches. And with the combat overhaul companion mod installed; those biters are a lot tougher than standard.

As a final insult:
IIRC unlocking the ability to process raw vulcanite into usable vulcanite blocks requires rocket science - i.e. the first of the actual space sciences. So you also have to construct a space platform before you can viably scale up.

I guess I could also make mention here of the fact that those neat cargo rockets are a trap. Until you've actually unlocked all the rocket upgrades that prevent cargo loss and that increase parts re-use, they are far more expensive than using delivery cannon capsules - maybe even double the raw resource costs, not sure.


Space Exploration has some very neat ideas and concepts, but ultimately on the game balance side of things it falls horribly, HORRIBLY flat on the face. Let's just say: it's a good thing Earendel was hired by Wube as a concept artist and not to take care of core game design.

[ShutEye_DK]

Messaggio originale di Unyielding Sarcasm:

...
Well done mod maker, youv made your own creation a chore to play.
...

Mods are not made for you, they are made for the mod-maker.
Enjoy their work. Or don't.

[RiO]

Messaggio originale di ShutEye_DK:

Messaggio originale di Unyielding Sarcasm:

...
Well done mod maker, youv made your own creation a chore to play.
...

Mods are not made for you, they are made for the mod-maker.
Enjoy their work. Or don't.

While that is in principle true, morally a certain degree of responsibility exists towards other players once you publish your mod publicly. E.g. don't break the game with updates; keep it compatible when the game itself updates; etc. You can add to that list as well: a responsibility to actually offer that which you put on the tin.

And let me quote from the mod description for a moment:

Space Exploration is for you if:
[...]
You want a refined, balanced, cohesive experience from a minimal mod list.

Yeah... it doesn't really do that, does it?
It's actually more the anti-thesis of refined and balanced. And the major way it achieves cohesion is by introducing knee-jerk changes to the game play to force players to play along one particular narrow-band line of development, because the others are simply made impossible. I.e. in a very bad attempt to gain the third, it sacrifices the first two.

[ShutEye_DK]

Messaggio originale di RiO:

...
morally a certain degree of responsibility exists towards other players once you publish your mod publicly.
...

Morally? That surely must be your own invention.

[Kylr]

Messaggio originale di ShutEye_DK:

Messaggio originale di Unyielding Sarcasm:

...
Well done mod maker, youv made your own creation a chore to play.
...

Mods are not made for you, they are made for the mod-maker.
Enjoy their work. Or don't.

Yup. Its free content that someone else has put there time and energy into creating. Doesnt mean you have to like/enjoy it, but crapping on it, eh. Anyone complaining about mods, should spend there own free time creating a free mod, then read all the posts of people complaining about it >:)

I played it for awhile, I enjoyed the change of pace from vanilla/bobs/angels. Its not perfect (to my tastes) and has some rough edges, but for what it is, its done well enough to be enjoyable, and I respect the amount of work that went into it.

[RiO]

Messaggio originale di Kylr:

crapping on it

To each their own. That's not what I'd call it though.

I personally find that Space Exploration has some very good ideas and concepts; but they are marred by terrible balancing and bad knee-jerk changes made to funnel players into playing the mod in the ways the original creator wants them to. (The whole biter meteors on vitamelange planets deal, for instance.)

It could be a whole lot better than it currently is, if Earendel would actually take the time to sit down; re-evaluate certain choices; and do a re-balancing pass to make things smoother and more streamlined.

Streamlining it doesn't mean dumbing it down. Rather; it means getting rid of the cruft that is rote complexity for complexity's sake or rote inflated numbers, and allowing players to move forward and spend their time on actual real challenges within the scope of the game; i.e. avoids the busy work fallacy.

Take for instance Beryllium processing. Is there an actual reason for the process to involve that many intermediate products; the output none of which ever appear as input in any other recipe chain? No. It's just needless bloat that serves no actual purpose other than to inflate the time taken for the player to find enough space to build the required machines for the assembly line.

Holmium and Iridium at the very least have some interesting things going on with recycling the ionic beads. Beryllium? Nope. It takes a detour through an acid - i.e. a liquid - but also that is a 1:1 input-to-output relation. Not used by any other recipes.


My advise to Earendel would be:
cut the fat; allow players to sample the meat.

[GreenBeanN1]

The bigger mods you have to use them as they are in most cases. You like them or not.
I haven't tried space exploration but by the looks of it I never will. Too many surfaces to explore with only one way of transportation. Rockets.

I prefer smaller mods. Just choose the ones I like and if there is something missing I add it. If there is too much I remove it. Shape the game with a lot of mini DLC's.

[RiO]

Messaggio originale di GreenBeanN1:

Too many surfaces to explore with only one way of transportation. Rockets.

That's doing it a disservice. There's a bit more to it than that.
Space Exploration offers:

• aforementioned cargo (and transit) rockets;
  
• cheaper but limited interplanetary cannons to fire resource pods to different worlds; and (admittedly after quite a bit more time sunk into additional research)
  
• spaceships you design yourself from flooring, walls and mounted devices.

And it still has space elevators in-development for mass-transit of trains from surface to planetary orbit.

[pryt]

I'm currently playing a game with Angel's and Bob's mods, with Angel's Refining, Bioprocessing, Smelting and so on, and all of Bob's stuff + Yuoki for funsies in later game (after reaching the refining research to actually use Yuoki stuff).

Well, now I'm 10 hours in and finished steel research and mechanical refining, means, I made it to "production research", means, one of 7 tier 1 research areas somewhat covered. still slow, but this is how it goes.

It's fun, it's complicated, it keeps you busy. And yes, playing on a modified settings rail world with RSP mod too.

[hellatze]

Messaggio originale di Unyielding Sarcasm:

I hear how great it is, but it seems so needlessly convoluted and frankly silly to do even basic things. Why does everything, EVERYTHING, need 5 extra steps? why do the new formulas feel like the mod dev just made everything hyper expensive for jollies? why are there so many steps in production that go nowhere save like one part? why are the biters so bloody fast and you cant build anywhere close to there nests?

Why, in a game that stresses creativity, does this mod seem to hard lock you out of so much? Why do people like it so much?!

Iv pumped 100+ hours into several attempts, and i think im just done at this point. Well done mod maker, youv made your own creation a chore to play.

If the actual expansion gos the space rout, i pray its not nearly as obtuse as space exploration.

Despite being awsome mod. i hate it when become complicated. there is however easier version using other mod to tweak it.

i hope factorio team make spaceship mod into vanilla and make it easier.