Understanding throughput

[pazartesi_gorusuruz]

I CAN'T. So far I know two things about throughput,
1- Filling a belt doesn't mean it will be enough for a very large production array because the items will be eaten up before they reach the end of the line
2- I don't know anything else

I always relied on mcdonald's factorio calculator to see how many machines i need to feed this many machines making *this* product, and then just supply raw materials until it's enough. But as far as I'm aware of there is no throughput calculator. And I don't think I can be arsed with calculating item consumption per second by a machine and then multiplying it with the weird crafting speed to get a per second item count and then try to produce that.

I am having green circuit issues for the blue circuits:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2619066489

The first 16 machines on the left are fully satisfied because they get to eat first from the bus, but the second 16's last few machines will never get to eat greens. I even upgraded to blue belts for feeding them and the green circuit busline but even that is not fast enough for the second set of machines because they simply get eaten before that.

I have no idea how to solve this. Am I supposed to make seperate green circuit arrays to specifically feed blue circuits? What's the point in making a green circuit bus line then?

[Zukabazuka]

Well belt speed is something you have to consider too, red belt only moves 30 items per second. So at some point the speed is not enough to supply all the factories. The other factor is blue circuit cost 20 green circuit meaning those machines at the start will almost always drain all the green ones.

So I would recommend a full line of green circuit and red on the other side, then use the red inserters to move out the items.

[pazartesi_gorusuruz]

Zukabazuka の投稿を引用：

So I would recommend a full line of green circuit and red on the other side, then use the red inserters to move out the items.

That is a good solution i will try that thank you

[Fel]

Blue circuits require an insane amount of green circuits (20 per blue circuit).
Thankfully they have a base crafting time of 10 seconds but they still take a lot after starting a new cycle.
A single lane of a blue belt "only" moves 45 items per second so before all machines are satisfied it wil be emptied pretty quickly.

If you do a bit of comparison, you might notice that green circuits have a base crafting time of 0.5 seconds, meaning that a single machine (same tier and same speed from modules) making green circuits is enough to feed a single macgine making blue circuits.
You might have noticed a similar thing when automating steel plates (a single furnace making iron plates is enough to exactly feed a furnace making steel plates), this means that you could produce the green circuits on site and directly insert them into the blue circuit machine, removing the need to use belts to transport them.

[pazartesi_gorusuruz]

Fel の投稿を引用：

If you do a bit of comparison, you might notice that green circuits have a base crafting time of 0.5 seconds, meaning that a single machine making green circuits is enough to feed a single macgine making blue circuits. You might have noticed a similar thing when automating steel plates (a single furnace making iron plates is enough to exactly feed a furnace making steel plates), this means that you could produce the green circuits on site and directly insert them into the blue circuit machine, removing the need to use belts to transport them.

that is freaking genius, thank you. now i need to figure out the maniacal layout for direct feed them though xD

i'll do one array like this and another one like zuka said and see which works better and how they look. thanks guy

[jagholin]

What calculator are you using exactly? Every one i've seen so far be it https://kirkmcdonald.github.io/ https://factoriolab.github.io/ or mods like helmod always tell you exactly how many belts you need to transport enough items, and you can always change from yellow to red/blue belts as well. They also give you a visualization(flow graph as factoriolab calls it) of how much of each intermediate item should go to where.

[knighttemplar1960]

Spoilers ahead. Don't peek if you want to figure it out for yourself.

Belt fed blue circuit production example:

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2619349514
Direct feed blue circuit production example:
(You can tell that I use the belt fed one.)

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2619349428
This is a view of a main bus set up that I used to launch a rocket and then started to expand into a megabase. If you look at the minimap you can see that the entire north side of the bus makes nothing but circuits. Everything else is made on the south side. The main bus there isn't adequate for the production that you see. Extra copper, plastic and the sulfuric acid comes in by rail in the north and extra iron plate comes in by rail in the south.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2619349339

[astrosha]

Determining how to feed your machines is fairly simple, until you get modules and beacons involved anyway.

Look at what the recipe needs. Blue circuits need 20 Green circuits and 2 Red circuits (and some sulfuric acid). It takes 10 seconds to craft.

So, you need 20 GC every 10 Seconds, that's 2 GC/sec. Multiply this by the machine's speed : 0.75 for an AM2, or 1.25 for an AM3. AM2's making them would need 1.5 GC/second, and AM3's need 2.5 GC/sec.

Now just compare the belt speed to see how many you can feed off of one belt. Yellow move 15 items/sec, Red move 30 items/sec, and Blue move 45 items/sec.

Yellow : 15 items/sec / 1.5 items/sec/AM2 = 10 AM2's. 15 items/sec / 2.5 items/sec/AM3 = 6 AM3's.
Red : twice yellow, so 20 AM2's or 12 AM3's.
Blue : 3 times yellow, so 30 AM2's or 18 AM3's.

Since you are using half belt of GC in your pic, cut those numbers in half.

For adding Beacons and Modules, you need to use the machine's speed after those are taken into account. Can't really tell which tier of Productivity Module you are using in those AM2's, but it slows the machine down (two AM3's would slow a machine 30%, bringing an AM2 down to 0.525 speed). This should allow for the belt to feed more machines, which is likely why you're able to keep the left hand 16 and some on the right fed, instead of only 15 fed. You won't be able to feed 32 AM's on just one belt, however.

Honestly, the solution is probably to include at least one more belt of GC on your bus. A good starter bus intended to last a decent time (while still having room for expansion) is probably 4 belts of Iron Plate, 2 belts of Copper Plate, 2 belts of Green circuits (which means *an additional* 3 belts of Copper and 2 belts of Iron), a belt each of Stone, Stone Brick, Coal, and Steel. I personally smelt 10 belts of iron into 2 belts of steel, 12 more belts of iron, and 10-12 belts of copper, leaving me 8 belts of iron and 4-6 of copper after turning 4 iron and 6 copper into 4 GC. Your issue is both insufficient delivery capacity for your machines, and insufficient supply on the bus to draw from in the first place.

[knighttemplar1960]

To add to the above if your set up requires that you exceed 45 items per second you'll either want to add an extra belt and merge about halfway down with splitters or switch to logistic bot delivery.

[RiO]

knighttemplar1960 の投稿を引用：

To add to the above if your set up requires that you exceed 45 items per second you'll either want to add an extra belt and merge about halfway down with splitters or switch to logistic bot delivery.

Or split the production line in two and merge the two outputs to create the full belt. That's actually quite advantageous when you're building so-called '8-beacon' setups, as it allows the next production line over to re-use half the beacons.

[Hurkyl]

pazartesi_gorusuruz の投稿を引用：

I have no idea how to solve this. Am I supposed to make seperate green circuit arrays to specifically feed blue circuits? What's the point in making a green circuit bus line then?

More green circuits. Whenever I've mathed things like this out, I've usually wanted something like one entire belt of circuits just for blue chips, and one belt of circuits for everything else.

There's a point to producing green circuits elsewhere, in that one belt of green circuits is more compact than two and a half belts of iron/copper plates so the former might be more convenient to transport. And you might have other bits (e.g. a mall) you might want to allow to steal from the line going to blue circuits.

But separate green chip factory right there (or direct insertion setups) right there at the blue circuit bit is fine too.

[pazartesi_gorusuruz]

My dudes thank you very much for all the info. I already understand more than I did before. i will respond in a wall of text

Hurkyl の投稿を引用：

More green circuits. Whenever I've mathed things like this out, I've usually wanted something like one entire belt of circuits just for blue chips, and one belt of circuits for everything else. There's a point to producing green circuits elsewhere, in that one belt of green circuits is more compact than two and a half belts of iron/copper plates so the former might be more convenient to transport. And you might have other bits (e.g. a mall) you might want to allow to steal from the line going to blue circuits.

really good points thank you.

@astrosha thanks so much for the calculations. i understand way better now on how to calculate. i couldn't wrap my brain around it for some reason. the weird crafting speeds annoy me. why couldn't it have been 1, 2, and 3 or 1,2, 4 or whatever xD thank you though

knighttemplar1960 の投稿を引用：

Spoilers ahead. Don't peek if you want to figure it out for yourself.

Belt fed blue circuit production example:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2619349514
Direct feed blue circuit production example:
(You can tell that I use the belt fed one.)
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2619349428
This is a view of a main bus set up that I used to launch a rocket and then started to expand into a megabase. If you look at the minimap you can see that the entire north side of the bus makes nothing but circuits. Everything else is made on the south side. The main bus there isn't adequate for the production that you see. Extra copper, plastic and the sulfuric acid comes in by rail in the north and extra iron plate comes in by rail in the south.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2619349339

that's huge. i only have 4 lines of metal and 4 for copper. and especially copper gets sucked so fast. i have at least 1 minute or so waiting time until the next train comes in with copper to fill the belts again. and even then, the copper doesn't reach the end of my wire-making lines. i don't think i understand how to calculate how many machines i can feed with a yellow/red/blue belt of *something*. i thought if i supply a bit more from whatever was missing, then the machines would start working but no. because the items don't reach the end. so my current setup is useless (massive array on the left) and i should now understand why:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2620047079

also, how do you feed that massive bus then? where does it all come from, how many mines do you have and how do you solve the signal nightmare? i have 2 copper mines (i used to think that's a lot because the trains were always full and waiting but now i understand that it's nowhere near enough). and i have 2 iron mines and 1 steel mine feeding all of my now pretty understandably pathetic bus (1st post).

i have more than enough to launch a few rockets but i want things to run continously and not get starved of their items, and i don't know how to do that without making many many more smelting outposts and hualing them back with trains and creating an absolute railway nightmare. i already have junctions like this:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2620049053

i mean, they work but i think i'm doing something wrong xD people have these perfect vertical-horizontal rail line layouts that i don't understand how to do yet. and instead i have *this*
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2620050479

any tips on how not to hate myself while trying to building proper rail lines simultaneously?

thank you everyone, the community around this game is amazing.

[Fel]

Well, most big train networks work on a set of 2 1-way rails instead of 2-way rails that you are using.

On top of being much easier in terms of signals, the throughput is significantly higher and the cost lower than what you currently have.
It also allows you to go for a lot of different designs, like multiple smaller factories serviced by trains instead of a main bus.

The main drawback is that you typically need more space for the stations and intersections.

[knighttemplar1960]

pazartesi_gorusuruz の投稿を引用：

also, how do you feed that massive bus then? where does it all come from, how many mines do you have and how do you solve the signal nightmare?

It all comes in by train of course. At the moment I'm mining about 15 patches of iron and copper each, 6 patches of coal, 10 oil fields, 2 uranium patches, and 2 stone patches.

My main bus pre-rocket launch is 8 lanes of copper plate, 8 lanes of iron plate, 2 lanes of steel, 2 lanes each of green, red, and blue circuits. 1 lane of stone, 1 lane of bricks, 1 lane of walls, and 1 lane of coal.

I leave room for every thing by taking more space then I need and measuring things out before I start laying things out. My original start patches feed into stone furnaces that get up graded to steel furnaces as soon as I can and those feed the bus. I leave those in situ and when the start patches run out I start feeding them raw materials (ore and coal) with a tiny rail system.
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2620119232
When that becomes inadequate., I'll mine a couple of patches of ore and build an electric furnace array right next to the patch and then bring in plate and steel by rail to a mini rail hub that feeds in to the bus from the side, blending it in with what all ready being produced by the stone/steel furnaces. When the start patches and initial supply patches run out I eventually dismantle those and replace them with an additional rail fed system to keep the plate flowing.
(There are still times I don't leave quite enough space and have to make unfortunate jogs.)
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2620119087
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2620119336
(The above image shows what I've done after I remove my chip manufactury from the north side of the bus and bring in the chips by rail.)
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2620119436

pazartesi_gorusuruz の投稿を引用：

any tips on how not to hate myself while trying to building proper rail lines simultaneously?

Sure, do what real railroads do. Lay out your rails in cardinal directions anywhere you can and reduce crossings to minimums. Railroads are right hand drive so I always try to make sure my trains exit from the right hand side to prevent crossing the opposite rail (keeps traffic flowing better) and enter on the right side without crossing the opposite rail everywhere I can even if the train has to go a little out of its way to avoid doing so.

Did you play with legos as a kid? The game has the rails laid out in blocks so I designed what I think of as a legos rail system and I blue printed each block that I designed and mix and match them as needed. Eventually 2 lanes isn't enough for high traffic areas and I switch to a 4 lane interstate rails type system. The devs neglected to give us railroad bridges and tunnels so I had to take my inspiration from British traffic circuses for the 4 lanes intersections.

After much experimentation I figured out optimal signal placements and included them in my blue prints. Now I just snap together the pieces I need to make the rail system I want. I also included large power poles so power is all ready to hook up when I arrive at my destination.
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2620119771

I just remember simple rules when piecing together junctions. Chain signal entering a junction, then a rail signal when exiting the junction unless the distance to the next junction is less than the length of my standard train. IN that case use another chain signal instead of the rail signal

Now my smelting areas are larger than my original bus and any place that belts are inadequate for throughput I use bots instead. A belt can get you 45 items per second max. Bots in a robot network that is 250 tiles by 250 tiles or less can deliver goods at a rate of ~250 items per second.
Smelting area for iron, copper, steel and stone (look at the minimap)
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2620119582
Close up of the copper foundry.
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2620119676
Chip manufactury.
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2620120040
Munitions plant.
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2620120157
and of course one of the 3 nuclear plants that powers the entire thing.
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2620119878

[-₪EPIC₪- Fail]

Just seeing this thread makes me think I am WAY over my head in starting this game.

[Fel]

It's the other way around, this is a good example of how far people can go with the basic tools we are all given, as well as a good reason of why it's so popular.

You can launch your first rocket with a factory that barely works and on the other extreme you will have gigantic factories, usually heavilky optimized but it doesn't mean that it's the only way to play.

As you continue to play, you will usually prefer some designs over others and end up with your own mix of things that isn't quite like any other.