ore mining 1 ore per second isnt that a little slow for ore mining

[Les]

ore mining 1 ore per second isnt that a little slow for ore mining I mean having 30 electric miners to fill up a belt is kind of slow and sad

[fractalgem]

引用自 Fel：

I would love to see both versions because I don't see how it's possible to double the amount of miners from the belt to the logistics chest versions.

For comparison's sake, here is how a compact setup looks like with belts (usually you would probably have the power poles on the outside to save on underground belts in the early game but we are not talking about saving a few iron plates this time):
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2162964044

It's not so much doubling the density as, on truly ginormous patches, having a field so big that even blue belts would be oversaturated; bots don't run into this problem
At least, that's what I think he's saying.

[dragonsphotoworks]

Ok here is first patch using belts. I can not use whole patch.
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2163079155
And with out belts.
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2163079701

And yes I am also referring to Blue belt capacity. Even if use mods for faster belts. At some point belt will become too staturated and become useless. Even if start spliting output from belt will hit a cap.

I used copy to show miner counts. Even with out compacting miners "i just copy pasted to be fast lol" You can see a large increase in miners. Now i set requesters to a limited amount. 100-500 That way all requesters ill place will have resource input. Dont get me wrong will take a lot of bots. But with short range i would place requesters just outside field along miners to feed specific outgoing belts the rate of transfer is high with out million bots. "I was in hurry and forgot to place requesters I can if need me to so can see."

140 "could place 10 more i think" VS 214 "could place maybe 20 more if compacted better".

[Fel]

His example was an ore patch of 20 miners by 10 miners, meaning you could make a belt-based design that is compact and has each belt get 5 miner per lane with belts exiting on the two sides that hold 20 miners, so both of those sides would end up with 10 belts, each fed by 5 miner per lane.

Of course you can get patches that are larger than that but that's already a fairly sizable patch even if we only count the miners given as the size (30 by 60 tiles).
And frankly if you can fill a blue belt with 10 electric miners without being able to use beacons on the inner ones then it would mean that your bottlenecked issue ends up with already 20 blue belts of ores, which is more than most bases need in terms of materials.

20 * 45 = 900 ores per second
To give some perspective, without any productivity module involved you barely breach beyond 900 copper ores and nearly reach 900 iron ores per second to produce 5 per second of each science packs per second


It's safe to say that an ore patch that can give you that kind of production becomes another sort of problem in terms of the amount of space and power required to smelt all of that and the amounts of logistics robots needed to transport that is quite insane as well.

Even if we assume perfect efficiency, a robot can only hold 4 items at once, that's 225 robots, and that's also assuming that they all average at 1 second per transfer (including recharging when needed).
All of that only to get the ores right outside of the deposit, they still need to be put on belts to be smelted.


A compact layout with belts leaves 1.5 tiles for belts and power poles per 9 tiles of electric mining drill, so a total of 10.5 tiles per miner.
Even removing the power poles and roboports from the math for the bot-based setup you end up with 1 tile for the chest per 9 tiles of electric mining drill (at least I didn't find a way to share a chest without wasting more space in the end), so 10 tiles per miner.
So in any case where belts are not the bottleneck you end up with an extra 5% coverage, and that is without counting the spots that are stolen by power and roboports in the case of big deposits.


I understand that in theory there are cases where belts are too limited to get ores out of a deposit but when you do some math it means that you need ridiculous situations for that to happen and you need fairly insane production to use that as well.

Now, I'm not saying that people can't use robot-based mining setups, just that efficiency might not be as big an argument as it might seem, which is why I was asking what the design was because it made little sense.


EDIT: I didn't see that the screenshots were provided while I was writting this, so to answer that I'll need to preface this by saying that the belt layour makes very little sense to me (only 1 lane of each belt gets ores, and only from a single mining drill) and the robot layout looks suspiciously like what a belt layout would look like, except with a massive area of 2 tiles between the rows for the substations.
If you are going to use a setup with lines like that for your mining drills even with robots then you might as well use the 1 tile power poles and put them between the chests, that way you can have a much more compact design.

Funny enough you can re-use the screenshot I showed earlier with very few changes for your robot-based design:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2162964044

Here is the most compact design I managed to get for robot-based mining (but with larger deposits you need to use roboports and substation in the place of some of the miners):
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2163105402

I am absolutely not saying that my design is the absolute best, far from it, I'm just providing those as examples (the spoilers were because we are on the thread of a new player so I wanted to avoid forcing him to see designs if he didn't want to, but sadly it doesn't work well with images).

Out of curiosity, how high is your mining productivity to require 1 red belt's lane (15 items per second) per miner?
My math tells me level 287, which seems way out of reach but I know some people went past level 100 in infinite technologies in the past.

[dragonsphotoworks]

I left the gap between miners due to having to build whole thing from scratch and being in hurry to post it. Otherwise those gaps would NOT be there. I have found with red belts 2 miners would keep up at lvl 30 or so mining research. I had to remove my actual miners to redo for picture. And build extras lol

I also use same setup for blue belts actually. As for assemblers i am using mod ones. They 4x size and do X4 production. Up to X16 versions. I use them due to making huge bases for fun lol They are not extra production. They produce same amount as assemblers they replace to lower UPS and such.

Your Robot setup is more compact then mine. But its too confusing :-) My ocd would drive me insane every time i looked at it lol But it does look very good.

My idea does not work on small patches very well. Its for the rare "not in my rail world game as I have size of patches maxed." huge patch. And due to short range of flight Last patch like this i ran with 2,000 robots and lot of time some were not in use. They carry 4 items per flight also. Have not modded that. "havent found mod for it yet lol"

But going vanilla this setup would work. I am not saying mine is best way at all either. It is just as a possible solution if wanted. I do not know how to do spoiler thing. Never figured it out and well.. to be honest i never asked so that my fualt lol

Oh ya reason only one side of belt used was so could add more miners just to compare. Also in first SS that was a brand new design. I was able to add even more to belted version then i had been using. "So trying help another has helped me also :-)".

Also not sure why your math put research at 287? I do have some mods. But i dont think any effect miners other then the infinite research one. But It is possible im wrong?

EDIT to add: I also have used this with robot factories next to it and connected them both. Though i did have almost 4,000 robots at that time lol But lot of times i break logistic networks from miners and factories by using a requester at edge of miner logistic area then use inserters to put it on belt a short hop to providers for factory. So the robots dont cross.

[Fel]

For the math it's fairly simple.
Start with the items per second on a lane of a red belt, which is 15 (half of the throughput of the belt that is 30 since you are only outputing to one lane with a miner).

Divide it by the miner's speed (0.5 is there are no modules that affect speed) and multiplied by the mining time of the resource (1 for all vanilla ores except uranium which is 0.5) to give you the number of items required in 1 cycle in order to fill that lane of the belt:
15 / (0.5 * 1) = 30

Substract 1 since you get 1 ore per cycle as the base, then multiply by 100 to know the percentage of bonus you need from productivity (which can be from module, research or both in case of miners).
(30 - 1) * 100 = 2,900%

From there I made a small mistake but it doesn't change much (I initially substracted 30% for the non-infinite levels of the technology for no reason).
Each level provides an additive 10%, so you divide the required bonus by 10% (percentage being a unit here) to get the amount of levels required to reach that bonus:
2,900% / 10% = 290

And that's how I came to 287, which should have been 290.

If you go beyond that bonus the red belt will not be moving fast enough for the mined ores to get on the belt quickly enough, making the miner stutter.

[dragonsphotoworks]

Hmm i see now. Makes sense. I never could figure out speed of miners or assemblers. I always had to manually keep adding inputs till assembler kept working. And miners i purely guessed for most part. But that LVL 290.... if divide again becomes 29 with is around were i THINK it was when filled belt. So either is some number your missing. Or more likely some mod is increasing research bonus that im not finding.

Hmm so some how im making things work out ok. But im missing a lot of the math behind things. And helmod "the planner one" isnt working with modded stuff too well so ive been having trouble leveling production for each step of factory. Same for mining. Imma have to try figure this out. Thanks for the homework Fel :-P lol :-)