True fullscreen.

[Euphytose]

I did my research, and much to my disappointment, this is another one of those games that use "borderless fullscreen" instead of the real thing. Meaning, input lag, worse performances, and for somebody like me who actually plays the games he launches as opposed to alt tabbing every 10 seconds, offers no advantages whatsoever.

I wanted to buy this, but I'm not going to deal with an objectively inferior rendering, especially given that it would be very easy to give us the choice.

Add true fullscreen and you can have my money.

[KatherineOfSky]

Play the demo. I have ZERO problems with Fullscreen -- no lag.

[DrSadistic]

I've never had any issue with fullscreen either...

[daniel0674]

The fullscreen option is "borderless window" by choice. We didn't have reports of input lag or bad performance until now. If you actually have issues with the fullscreen as it is, then please make a bug report on the official forums[forums.factorio.com], but don't just assume you'll have the same problems with a borderless window as you did in other games.

Factorio has a demo version you can download which also allows you to run the game in fullscreen. You can test if your complaints are actually true here:
https://www.factorio.com/demo

[Euphytose]

Originally posted by daniel0674:

The fullscreen option is "borderless window" by choice. We didn't have reports of input lag or bad performance until now. If you actually have issues with the fullscreen as it is, then please make a bug report on the official forums[forums.factorio.com], but don't just assume you'll have the same problems with a borderless window as you did in other games.

Factorio has a demo version you can download which also allows you to run the game in fullscreen. You can test if your complaints are actually true here:
https://www.factorio.com/demo

Care to explain the intent of your "choice"? In most games, we have all three options: Windowed, Borderless Fullscreen, and Fullscreen.

Borderless fullscreen renders the desktop, by definition. The desktop rendering uses v-sync, at all times, that's how you don't get tearing on the desktop. V-sync creates input lag, it's unavoidable, it's in the way it works. If you have a 144hz, then I will admit that the added input lag is insignificant for non competitive games. However, I'm using a 60hz, and v-sync adds a great deal of input lag in this case.

I don't see the need to make a bug report, because it's not a bug. It's the expected behavior of a 3D application. Your game is not special, and will behave the same way as any other game.

With what you said I'm pretty sure this will never be implemented. Another great game which I will have to pass because of a questionable decision.

I really want to hear why you chose this, I'm really curious. People praise borderless windowed for its instant alt tabbing capabilities. Which is true, but unless your PC is very, very old, alt tabbing from / to a fullscreen program takes about 2 seconds at most. There are exceptions of course, but as I said, I'm never bothered, because I actually play the games, I don't alt tab frenetically for no reason. And if I do have to read a wiki (most used reason), then I thank the almigthy Valve gods for the great invention called the Steam Overlay, which allows me to read this wiki while playing.

If your game had been using Unity, you would have had no choice, it's either true fullscreen, or borderless, or two separate builds, I can understand that. But that's not the case here. Are you saying it's impossible to have both? I'm no game developer, but seeing as several "one man team" devs were able to provide all three modes, I find it very curious.

[bonesbro]

Try the demo, silly. You'll see that there's no problem.

[Euphytose]

Originally posted by bonesbro:

Try the demo, silly. You'll see that there's no problem.

Oh, so they managed to create a game using borderless windowed that somehow bypasses the desktop renderer? Even if I did try the demo and posted "There I told you!" you wouldn't believe me. For you there's no input lag because you're not used to playing without it. You most likely use v-sync in every single game you play.

[Morphic]

Originally posted by Euphytose:

Originally posted by bonesbro:

Try the demo, silly. You'll see that there's no problem.

Oh, so they managed to create a game using borderless windowed that somehow bypasses the desktop renderer? Even if I did try the demo and posted "There I told you!" you wouldn't believe me. For you there's no input lag because you're not used to playing without it. You most likely use v-sync in every single game you play.

So instead of actually trying the Demo and seeing for yourself if you do in fact have an issue with Input Lag .... you'd rather deflect, Red Herring, then sneak in a stealth Ad Hominem?

I'd comment on how I was in Diamond League of StarCraft 2 with V-sync and thus had Input Lag for my entire Season One Ladder career but you wouldn't believe me.

Just try the Demo and see if the Input Lag is so horrible for you in a game like this. If it is, then post about it so it's at least on record. Granted you'll probably get "gunned down" by fans of Factorio since they generally seem to dismiss anything they don't like/agree with lol.

[Euphytose]

Originally posted by Setzway:

Originally posted by Euphytose:

Oh, so they managed to create a game using borderless windowed that somehow bypasses the desktop renderer? Even if I did try the demo and posted "There I told you!" you wouldn't believe me. For you there's no input lag because you're not used to playing without it. You most likely use v-sync in every single game you play.

So instead of actually trying the Demo and seeing for yourself if you do in fact have an issue with Input Lag .... you'd rather deflect, Red Herring, then sneak in a stealth Ad Hominem?

I'd comment on how I was in Diamond League of StarCraft 2 with V-sync and thus had Input Lag for my entire Season One Ladder career but you wouldn't believe me.

Just try the Demo and see if the Input Lag is so horrible for you in a game like this. If it is, then post about it so it's at least on record. Granted you'll probably get "gunned down" by fans of Factorio since they generally seem to dismiss anything they don't like/agree with lol.

You don't understand. There is no point for me to try the demo, it's a technical fact that borderless windowed creates input lag, and it creates it the exact same way in every single 3D application. The only way to reduce the effect is to either have a high refresh rate monitor such as 144hz, which I don't have, or lock your framerate two frames below your refresh rate. But even when using this trick, it's not enough, it just limits the damage.

I'm not going to buy this game, but I still would like to hear the reason why this choice was made. That's the third game in 2 months I have to pass because of the same exact thing. And this really worries me, because the majority is currently using borderless. And since the devs catter to the lowest common denominator, we're going to see more and more of this nonsense. I'm really glad Google exists so it saves me time and frustration when it comes to trying / refunding games.

You can clearly see that most people are clueless, more often than not they have no idea what "exclusive fullscreen" even is.

"Takes my entire screen? Welp, looks fullscreen to me!".

Just one justification for not adding it, that's all I want to hear. If it's a valid reason then I won't argue, it's your game.

[Morphic]

Originally posted by Euphytose:

You don't understand. There is no point for me to try the demo, it's a technical fact that borderless windowed creates input lag, and it creates it the exact same way in every single 3D application.

Which is why I said "see if it is horrible for you. This isn't some FPS or Competitive RTS game where milliseconds make the difference between winning or losing. I highly doubt a lag of >1 second is going to cause you issues in Factorio ... unless you are one of those "Elitists" that notice a single frame dip or a few milliseconds of lag between inputs and thus you can't stand it.

Originally posted by Euphytose:

You can clearly see that most people are clueless, more often than not they have no idea what "exclusive fullscreen" even is.

"Takes my entire screen? Welp, looks fullscreen to me!".

Just one justification for not adding it, that's all I want to hear. If it's a valid reason then I won't argue, it's your game.

Which I'd agree and be complaining with you ... if we were talking about an FPS or Competitive RTS game; where milliseconds and handfuls of Frames mean the difference between winning or losing. We aren't talking about such a game though; which is why I encouraged you to try the Demo to see if you really can't stand such an Input Lag. I barely notice such a delay and I've been playing Competitive RTSes for years now. YRMV so it can't hurt to try the Demo, unless you have limited bandwith/Data or you are an aforementioned "Elitist" that needs the 300 FPS @120Hz Refresh on a 4K Monitor with 0.000321 seconds of Input Lag lol.

Don't get me wrong, I understand where you are coming as you want the most optimal experience or, at the very least, options to customize your experience; especially options that are "The Norm".

[Euphytose]

I wouldn't call that elitism. It's just a good gameplay experience. Playing as if your mouse was being dragged in jelly is not pleasant at all, competitive game or not. And if it's a hardware cursor, then everything you drag n drop will feel like it's attached to your cursor by a chain. And if you pay close attention, that's literally what it is. The object is just lagging behind.

Go on your desktop, drag an icon, this is what happens. On 60hz anyway. I don't want this in any game I play.

For non competitive games, I don't want 300 fps, I don't even want 300 fps in competitive games unless it's to exploit the engine.

I want 60 fps @ 60hz (totally not elitism here), with minimal input lag. Of course if I want to reduce it even further in fullscreen games I uncap them, saves a good 12ms or more depending on how high it goes.

Point is, this game is very likely playable as it is right now, but playable doesn't mean enjoyable for me.

For others, tearing is unbearable and ruins the gameplay, for me it's a reminder that v-sync is off, which is a good thing, I don't even notice tearing anymore. But in borderless, v-sync is here whether you like it or not. I don't even understand why the game has the option to turn off v-sync, because it will have no effect at all unless it runs in true fullscreen.

Sometimes I wonder if devs are even aware that borderless applications run through the desktop and thus are subject to its specificities.

I'm not even asking for a nice UI option, I just want to be able to force this through an .ini file. Same with v-sync or field of view when applicable. V-sync is always doable through the driver anyway, but you first need to use fullscreen, you can't bypass the desktop, even with Nvidia Inspector.

[fractalgem]

Just one justification for not adding it, that's all I want to hear. If it's a valid reason then I won't argue, it's your game.

1. If you wish for the devs to do something, you should probably post in suggestions, not general discussion. Posting in general discussion is less likely to be noticed by the devs.

2. I am a bit curious: how much input lag do you experience with the demo/would you expect to experience, anyways?

3. Your character is an aimbot when using pistols and machine guns. As long as you're holding down space, he'll shoot at nearby biters. Thus, input lag in a combat situation is nowhere near as lethal here as it would be in, say, minecraft.

4. Factorio is more cerebral than action oriented anyways, so unless you have a LOT of input lag (say, averaging over a second), you're not likely to actually experience any issues, unless your sense of timing is just really that sensitive.

5. There is a free demo you can check out to see if, in fact, the input lag you experience will be a big deal in the context of factorio.

[Euphytose]

With v-sync, you can expect about 30-35ms more input lag on a 60hz. Doesn't seem like much, but it's huge.

It won't be a big deal, I know that. As in, it will not hinder my ability to correctly play the game. But like I said, it feels like everything you do is through jelly/water. Kind of like when you're knee deep in water and suddenly you get out of it and realize just how good it feels to be able to move your legs normally.

I have played other games where it wasn't a big deal, but it was still very unpleasant and I ended up not playing them because of that. When you've played without v-sync for all your life it's hard to change. The only games in which I could forget about it would be turn based games with no time limit per turn.

Again, the majority these days, at least for casual games, is using borderless, so it makes sense to code the game to use that. I just don't get why we can't have both is all. My loss I guess.

[Skev]

"It's the expected behavior of a 3D application"

Factorio isn't a 3D application, there's no 3D engine, it's all sprites.
I agree that any noticeable input lag seriously affects enjoyment of a game, but I've never had any perceptible input lag in Factorio, nor heard of anyone having a problem with input lag except when something was seriously wrong (usually in multiplayer when that feature was still in development).

[Morphic]

Originally posted by Euphytose:

I wouldn't call that elitism.

I was obviously exaggerating, what with the hyperbole ... or not I guess.

Originally posted by Euphytose:

It's just a good gameplay experience. Playing as if your mouse was being dragged in jelly is not pleasant at all, competitive game or not. And if it's a hardware cursor, then everything you drag n drop will feel like it's attached to your cursor by a chain. And if you pay close attention, that's literally what it is. The object is just lagging behind.

But again; How would you know if you've never even played the Factorio Demo? Sure you could get all technical and tout the whole "but it renders the Desktop and therefore is bound by the mechanics and limitations of such ... [blahblahblah]" but then Factorio could be optimized in such a way that "lag" is mitigated in a way that you don't perceive it or is tolerable.

I notice it but I find it tolerable since Factorio is such a slow paced game.

Originally posted by Euphytose:

Go on your desktop, drag an icon, this is what happens. On 60hz anyway. I don't want this in any game I play.

Of course if I want to reduce it even further in fullscreen games I uncap them, saves a good 12ms or more depending on how high it goes.

[...]I have played other games where it wasn't a big deal, but it was still very unpleasant and I ended up not playing them because of that. When you've played without v-sync for all your life it's hard to change. The only games in which I could forget about it would be turn based games with no time limit per turn.[...]

Point is, this game is very likely playable as it is right now, but playable doesn't mean enjoyable for me.[...]

For others, tearing is unbearable and ruins the gameplay, for me it's a reminder that v-sync is off, which is a good thing, I don't even notice tearing anymore.

Sounds like Elitism to me! Jokes aside, the part about dragging an Icon; I have Mouse Acceleration off and even did the whole Windows Registry Edit/workaround to get it to "Truly be off" ... which every compettive gamer knows even with doing that some games have Mouse Accel hardcoded in them so you can't actually "turn it off" ... anyway that drag/lag is miniscule. Like a hair's breadth behind my Cursor's tip.

If you honestly can't stand such a miniscule delay/lag such as that ... I have no idea how you can ever enjoy any game really. I mean. even True Fullscreen games will have multiple areas that could cause delay,(for SC2 it's likely your Mouse USB Input) the custom configs and optimization you must have to manually do for everything would drive me nuts lol. Then again I'm old, so I might be inherently lenient on that stuff now; when it comes to non-competitive games.

[Gammro]

I think you just spent more time arguing when you could've just tested the demo for 10 minutes to see how bad it is in practice.