Main Bus Concept

[Alaskan Glitch]

First and foremost, I really liked and highly recommend KathrineOfSky's Guide if you are new to Factorio.

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=754378586

I think she is absolutely correct that using a main bus design is the most efficient approach. This is an excellent guide, and one I have followed dilligently. It was an enormous help in understanding how complete the objective with the least amount of frustration continually revamping novice spaghetti networks.

While the concept of a main bus to supply all your ancillary needs is without doubt the best design approach, the products being shipped along the main bus seemed rather arbitrary to me the more I used the recommendations.

I looked at all the resources and intermediate products to determine how many are being consumed by other processes. I excluded all resources and products that were only consumed by one other process. Copper Ore, for example, is only consumed by furnaces to make copper plate. Nothing else uses copper ore. While Iron ore is consumed by furnaces as well, it is also used to make concrete and therefore is involved in two processes and included in the list below.

I compiled a list of 32 resources and intermediate products, the number of processes that consume them and calculated their percentage of distribution. This is the result:

#01 - Electronic Circuit (Green) & Steel Plate = 51, 13.043%
#02 - Iron Plate = 44, 11.253%
#03 - Iron Gear Wheel = 40, 10.23%
#04 - Advanced Circuit (Red) = 31, 7.928%
#05 - Copper Plate = 21, 5.371%
#06 - Processing Unit (Blue) = 20, 5.115%
#07 - Coal & Rocket Fuel = 14 (8 used as fuel, 6 in other processes), 3.581%
#08 - Copper Cable = 12, 3.069%
#09 - Solid Fuel = 8, 2.046%
#10 - Engine Unit, Explosives & Water = 7, 1.790%
#11 - Battery = 6, 1.535%
#12 - Crude Oil & Electronic Engine Unit & Uranium-238 = 5, 1.279%
#13 - Heavy Oil, Iron Stick, Lubricant, Stone & Wood = 4, 1.023%
#14 - Light Oil, Petroleum Gas, Plastic Bar, Sulfuric Acid, Uranium-235 = 3, 0.767%
#15 - Flying Robot Frame, Iron Ore, Low Density Structure, Sulfuric Acid = 2, 0.512%

There are a total of 391 processes (counting fuel) consuming these 32 resources. In order to keep with the most efficient main bus design I think KatherineOfSky got it exactly right as to the number of main bus lines. Too many lines and it defeats the purpose, and too few lines and you will be waiting forever for resources. Somewhere around 20 lines has worked for me, but you can use anywhere from 16 to 24.

If you wanted a 16-line main bus it would break-down as follows:
2 - Electronic Circuit (Green)
2 - Steel Plate
2 - Iron Plate
2 - Iron Gear Wheel
1 - Advanced Circuit (Red)
1 - Copper Plate
1 - Processing Unit (Blue)
1 - Coal
1 - Rocket Fuel
1 - Copper Cable
1 - Solid Fuel
1 - Your choice between Engine Unit, Explosives & Water

If you wanted a 20-line main bus (recommended) it would break-down as follows:
3 - Electronic Circuit (Green)
3 - Steel Plate
2 - Iron Plate
2 - Iron Gear Wheel
2 - Advanced Circuit (Red)
1 - Copper Plate
1 - Processing Unit (Blue)
1 - Coal
1 - Rocket Fuel
1 - Copper Cable
1 - Solid Fuel
1 - Your choice between Engine Unit, Explosives & Water
1 - Battery

If you wanted a 24-line main bus it would break-down as follows:
3 - Electronic Circuit (Green)
3 - Steel Plate
3 - Iron Plate
3 - Iron Gear Wheel
2 - Advanced Circuit (Red)
1 - Copper Plate
1 - Processing Unit (Blue)
1 - Coal
1 - Rocket Fuel
1 - Copper Cable
1 - Solid Fuel
1 - Your choice between Engine Unit, Explosives & Water
1 - Battery
1 - Your choice between Crude Oil & Electronic Engine Unit & Uranium-238
1 - Your choice between Heavy Oil, Iron Stick, Lubricant, Stone & Wood

As a caveat and disclaimer, I did not factor in the quantity of raw resources consumed, nor the amount of time to produce the resources or make the intermediate processes. This analysis is based solely on the number of resources and intermediate products consumed by other processes. I hope this helps.

[Nailfoot]

That's a lot of info there! One thing, I would never put copper cable on the buss. I always make it on site, and try to direct insert it wherever possible.

[Alaskan Glitch]

Originally posted by Nailfoot:

That's a lot of info there! One thing, I would never put copper cable on the buss. I always make it on site, and try to direct insert it wherever possible.

That would be an inefficient use of factories. There are 12 other processes that consume copper cables. Why build 12 or more copper cable factories when you only need to build 4 to 6 and put their output on the bus?

[Nailfoot]

Originally posted by Alaskan Glitch:

Originally posted by Nailfoot:

That's a lot of info there! One thing, I would never put copper cable on the buss. I always make it on site, and try to direct insert it wherever possible.

That would be an inefficient use of factories. There are 12 other processes that consume copper cables. Why build 12 or more copper cable factories when you only need to build 4 to 6 and put their output on the bus?

Oh, I see. :)

I use 50+ assemblers for copper cable on my green circuits ALONE!

I will use another 20 or more for red circuits.

And another 10 for yellow science.

I shudder at the thought of having 24 blue belts of copper cable because that's what it would take, minimum.. Blue belts move 40 items per second and a mega base can easily consume 50,000 copper cables a minute.

[Alaskan Glitch]

Originally posted by Nailfoot:

Originally posted by Alaskan Glitch:

That would be an inefficient use of factories. There are 12 other processes that consume copper cables. Why build 12 or more copper cable factories when you only need to build 4 to 6 and put their output on the bus?

Oh, I see. :)

I use 50+ assemblers for copper cable on my green circuits ALONE!

I will use another 20 or more for red circuits.

And another 10 for yellow science.

I shudder at the thought of having 24 blue belts of copper cable because that's what it would take, minimum.. Blue belts move 40 items per second and a mega base can easily consume 50,000 copper cables a minute.

I did something very similar, using a ratio of 3 copper cable factories directly tied to 2 green circuit factories and fast inserters. There has to be a more efficient way than mass producing factories.

[Nailfoot]

Originally posted by Alaskan Glitch:

Originally posted by Nailfoot:

Oh, I see. :)

I use 50+ assemblers for copper cable on my green circuits ALONE!

I will use another 20 or more for red circuits.

And another 10 for yellow science.

I shudder at the thought of having 24 blue belts of copper cable because that's what it would take, minimum.. Blue belts move 40 items per second and a mega base can easily consume 50,000 copper cables a minute.

I did something very similar, using a ratio of 3 copper cable factories directly tied to 2 green circuit factories and fast inserters. There has to be a more efficient way than mass producing factories.

I don't think so. Compared to a string of 24 (or more) blue belts shuttling copper cable, assemblers are cheap.

Also, you get 2 copper cables per copper plate so it is twice as effective to move the plates instead of the cables.

[Alaskan Glitch]

Maybe a compromise. Include the items on the main bus according to their percentage of distribution, but when certain intermediate resource hogs (like with the green Electronic Circuits) build separate copper wire factories to feed them directly. In otherwords, do not always draw from the main bus if you know it is going to consume a great deal of resources.

[Alaskan Glitch]

Originally posted by Nailfoot:

Originally posted by Alaskan Glitch:

I did something very similar, using a ratio of 3 copper cable factories directly tied to 2 green circuit factories and fast inserters. There has to be a more efficient way than mass producing factories.

I don't think so. Compared to a string of 24 (or more) blue belts shuttling copper cable, assemblers are cheap.

Also, you get 2 copper cables per copper plate so it is twice as effective to move the plates instead of the cables.

That is an excellent point about the copper plates. It would be twice as efficent to use the main bus line for copper plates instead of copper wire. So there should be at least two lines with copper plates. Tweaks like this help. Thanks.

[KatherineOfSky]

@Alaskan Glitch -- I think you must have misunderstood my guide, because I have NEVER recommended putting copper ore (or Iron ore) on the bus. (None of the pictures show this either).

Also, if you read the beginning, it says that the guide has not been updated for 0.15. As such the number of lines would be increased for iron, and also include stone, stone bricks, and coal.

Also, as to the quantity of main bus lines, that is dependent on how big your factory is.

Copper cables should ALWAYS be made locally because of the ratio difference, as been suggested above.

As to your max, 24 line Main Bus recommendation, it's WAY low in terms of materials. 4 fully compressed lines of green circuits isn't enough, never mind 3. How can you make X science per second with only 3 lines of iron? At the LEAST I put 8 lines of iron!

(Also, how are you going to get 3 fully compressed lines of gears without 6 lines of iron feeding them???) Remember that the bus feeds the production of intermediate products, so when you say "only 3 lines of iron on the bus", it doesn't make sense, because that doesn't even fill your gears requirement, let alone leave iron for the rest of production.)

You NEED to factor in all of the intermediate processes to give a recommendation like this... You should also factor in efficiency. E.g. why would you ever need solid fuel on the bus? It's used in only one item -- rocket fuel. Therefore, convert it direcly into rocket fuel in the oil processing area.

Also, why rocket fuel on the bus? It's only needed in one process -- the rocket. Transport it to the rocket site directly -- it has no need to be on the bus. Other items that definitely don't need busing: explosives, engines, water, iron sticks, uranium.

I know that you are trying to analyze things by the numbers.... but without taking into consideration the most basic things like actual use & time ratios, the production needed for science and rockets, the recommendations you posted are more of a random draw from a hat than anything truly useful.

I would suggest getting more experience with the game, and note down observations about how your factory actually works, where the shortfalls are, and how things can be improved.

[Ruges]

Originally posted by Alaskan Glitch:

Originally posted by Nailfoot:

That's a lot of info there! One thing, I would never put copper cable on the buss. I always make it on site, and try to direct insert it wherever possible.

That would be an inefficient use of factories. There are 12 other processes that consume copper cables. Why build 12 or more copper cable factories when you only need to build 4 to 6 and put their output on the bus?

When your only producing 4-6 factories of cable. It makes sense. However as the game progresses. Copper cable quickly becomes the most produced item. and if your launching allot of rockets and producing allot of T3 modules. copper cable can easily become 3x more in quantity then any other item, even plate. And eventually when you start using the yellow factories with lvl3 modules and beacons you can set it up so it takes 1 factory of cable to feed 1 factory of green circuts. I suggest you give it a try.

Originally posted by KatherineOfSky:

Also, why rocket fuel on the bus? It's only needed in one process -- the rocket. Transport it to the rocket site directly -- it has no need to be on the bus. Other items that definitely don't need busing: explosives, engines, water, iron sticks, uranium.

And I agree with what KoS said with the exception of this. In my last factory I was using 2 blue lanes for rocket fuel. Granted that is pretty late game when your pounding out the rockets. But early game, yea no point in puting rocket fuel on the bus. As for engines on the bus. One of the things I have started doing on my bus lines is leavng the first 4 lanes for such items. I call it my short bus. These are items that wont extend far down my bus. For instance engines they only go down the bus a couple tiles. Or bullets, they only go down a couple tiles. Modules are another one, only down a couple tiles. I use this short bus area to feed things further down the bus line. but never in a lane that might need to be occupied by one further up the bus line.

Originally posted by Alaskan Glitch:

I hope this helps.

As to the OPs concept of being able to determine how many lines to use for each item in a bus. I have found that even when I plan it out like this I always run into a situation where I need to add one more line to the buss. (even when I leave space for an additional 4-12 lanes that I dont have planed at the time). To combat this I have started designing my factories in a way that I only build on one side of the bus. This means anytime I need a new item sent down the bus its as simple as adding a new line. and there is always room to build a new line. So now I build lanes as demand needs.

[fractalgem]

Originally posted by KatherineOfSky:

Other items that definitely don't need busing: explosives, engines, water, iron sticks, uranium.

I bus engines, but they don't get bussed very far. IIRC they're now needed for three different things.

[KatherineOfSky]

Originally posted by Ruges:

Originally posted by KatherineOfSky:

Also, why rocket fuel on the bus? It's only needed in one process -- the rocket. Transport it to the rocket site directly -- it has no need to be on the bus. Other items that definitely don't need busing: explosives, engines, water, iron sticks, uranium.

And I agree with what KoS said with the exception of this. In my last factory I was using 2 blue lanes for rocket fuel. Granted that is pretty late game when your pounding out the rockets. But early game, yea no point in puting rocket fuel on the bus. As for engines on the bus. One of the things I have started doing on my bus lines is leavng the first 4 lanes for such items. I call it my short bus. These are items that wont extend far down my bus. For instance engines they only go down the bus a couple tiles. Or bullets, they only go down a couple tiles. Modules are another one, only down a couple tiles. I use this short bus area to feed things further down the bus line. but never in a lane that might need to be occupied by one further up the bus line.

I should have specified -- what I meant is that since rocket fuel is needed by only one machine (rocket silo), it can be directly transported -- via train, or on lines parallel to the bus if your rocket fuel production is in the area. To me, that's different than being "on the bus", which (to me), implies splitting off to multiple assemblies.

I like your idea of a short bus! I need to try and incorporate that into my factories some time :-)

[Bucketsmith]

Interesting read.

I'm new to the game, and I prefer to have alternatives as opposed to a singular most efficient way of playing. That said, wouldn't it work well to start with small/short busses and expand that way?
It seems to make sense for early game and for new players, not having to worry so much about end-mid-game to end-game stuff when you're just starting out.

[Nailfoot]

Originally posted by Bucketsmith:

Interesting read.

I'm new to the game, and I prefer to have alternatives as opposed to a singular most efficient way of playing. That said, wouldn't it work well to start with small/short busses and expand that way?
It seems to make sense for early game and for new players, not having to worry so much about end-mid-game to end-game stuff when you're just starting out.

Yes, a small buss works excellent for early game and new players. You can, in fact, research all the way through yellow science with only two belts of iron and two belts of copper (plates) but it will be slow.

You will also have limited capacity to produce other items.

[Alaskan Glitch]

Originally posted by KatherineOfSky:

@Alaskan Glitch -- I think you must have misunderstood my guide, because I have NEVER recommended putting copper ore (or Iron ore) on the bus. (None of the pictures show this either).

Also, if you read the beginning, it says that the guide has not been updated for 0.15. As such the number of lines would be increased for iron, and also include stone, stone bricks, and coal.

I never suggested that you did recommend putting any ore on the main bus. However, what you do recommend does not work very well. The sulfuric acid you recommend, for example, is only used in 3 processes, lubcricants are used in only 4 processes. If you are going to put a liquid on the main bus then water makes more sense since it is used in 7 different processes.

Originally posted by KatherineOfSky:

Also, as to the quantity of main bus lines, that is dependent on how big your factory is.

Copper cables should ALWAYS be made locally because of the ratio difference, as been suggested above.

I agree with the copper cables suggestion since transporting one copper plate is more efficient than transporting two copper cables.

Originally posted by KatherineOfSky:

As to your max, 24 line Main Bus recommendation, it's WAY low in terms of materials. 4 fully compressed lines of green circuits isn't enough, never mind 3. How can you make X science per second with only 3 lines of iron? At the LEAST I put 8 lines of iron!

(Also, how are you going to get 3 fully compressed lines of gears without 6 lines of iron feeding them???) Remember that the bus feeds the production of intermediate products, so when you say "only 3 lines of iron on the bus", it doesn't make sense, because that doesn't even fill your gears requirement, let alone leave iron for the rest of production.)

I didn't give a maximum number of lines for a main bus. I agreed with your recommendation of 20 lines, and included a break-down if you were to use 16 or 24 lines instead. You can make it as big as you want, but at some point it defeats the purpose of having a main bus for critical resources if you are going to put all the resources on the main bus.

Originally posted by KatherineOfSky:

You NEED to factor in all of the intermediate processes to give a recommendation like this... You should also factor in efficiency. E.g. why would you ever need solid fuel on the bus? It's used in only one item -- rocket fuel. Therefore, convert it direcly into rocket fuel in the oil processing area.

Solid fuel is used to fuel 8 other processes and contains more than 3 times the energy of coal.

Originally posted by KatherineOfSky:

Also, why rocket fuel on the bus? It's only needed in one process -- the rocket. Transport it to the rocket site directly -- it has no need to be on the bus. Other items that definitely don't need busing: explosives, engines, water, iron sticks, uranium.

For the same reason solid fuel is on the bus. Rocket fuel produces 225MJ of energy, or 9 times that of solid fuel (25MJ), and more than 28 times more effecient as fuel than coal (8MJ). If coal was not need for 6 other intermediate processes then I would be recommending more rocket fuel instead of coal for a main bus line. Anything you have that burns coal as fuel would benefit signigicantly if you switched them over to rocket fuel instead, and that would free up coal for the other 6 intermediate processes that use the resource.

If it is twice as efficient to transport copper plate rather than copper cables, then it is 28 times more efficient to transport rocket fuel than coal when used for fuel.

Originally posted by KatherineOfSky:

I know that you are trying to analyze things by the numbers.... but without taking into consideration the most basic things like actual use & time ratios, the production needed for science and rockets, the recommendations you posted are more of a random draw from a hat than anything truly useful.

Except that they are not random. They are based upon the 391 different processes that actually use them. The two lines of steel plate you recommend are wholely inadquate for the job, while the 4 lines of copper plate are overkill. A better balance was necessary.

Originally posted by KatherineOfSky:

I would suggest getting more experience with the game, and note down observations about how your factory actually works, where the shortfalls are, and how things can be improved.

As I mentioned above, not everything can be supplied by the main bus and it would be a mistake to try.

[Alaskan Glitch]

Originally posted by Ruges:

Originally posted by Alaskan Glitch:

That would be an inefficient use of factories. There are 12 other processes that consume copper cables. Why build 12 or more copper cable factories when you only need to build 4 to 6 and put their output on the bus?

When your only producing 4-6 factories of cable. It makes sense. However as the game progresses. Copper cable quickly becomes the most produced item. and if your launching allot of rockets and producing allot of T3 modules. copper cable can easily become 3x more in quantity then any other item, even plate. And eventually when you start using the yellow factories with lvl3 modules and beacons you can set it up so it takes 1 factory of cable to feed 1 factory of green circuts. I suggest you give it a try.

I agree about the copper cables. Transporting one copper plate is more efficient than transporting two copper cables. Using that exact same reasoning, transporting one iron gear is more efficient than transporting two iron plates.

Copper cable may ultimately be the most produced item in the game, I haven't run those numbers yet, but it is not used in the most number of processes. Steel plate and electronic circuits (green) are eached used by 51 different intermediate processes.

Originally posted by Ruges:

Originally posted by KatherineOfSky:

Also, why rocket fuel on the bus? It's only needed in one process -- the rocket. Transport it to the rocket site directly -- it has no need to be on the bus. Other items that definitely don't need busing: explosives, engines, water, iron sticks, uranium.

And I agree with what KoS said with the exception of this. In my last factory I was using 2 blue lanes for rocket fuel. Granted that is pretty late game when your pounding out the rockets. But early game, yea no point in puting rocket fuel on the bus. As for engines on the bus. One of the things I have started doing on my bus lines is leavng the first 4 lanes for such items. I call it my short bus. These are items that wont extend far down my bus. For instance engines they only go down the bus a couple tiles. Or bullets, they only go down a couple tiles. Modules are another one, only down a couple tiles. I use this short bus area to feed things further down the bus line. but never in a lane that might need to be occupied by one further up the bus line.

Originally posted by Alaskan Glitch:

I hope this helps.

As to the OPs concept of being able to determine how many lines to use for each item in a bus. I have found that even when I plan it out like this I always run into a situation where I need to add one more line to the buss. (even when I leave space for an additional 4-12 lanes that I dont have planed at the time). To combat this I have started designing my factories in a way that I only build on one side of the bus. This means anytime I need a new item sent down the bus its as simple as adding a new line. and there is always room to build a new line. So now I build lanes as demand needs.

I have an early-game, mid-game, and late-game main bus. In the early game I'm only using 8 to 10 lines at most. By mid-game I'm pushing between 12 and 16 main bus lines, and in the latter stages I'm up to between 18 and 22 lines. I try to limit it to no more than 20 lines, but I'm not always successful.

I'm not suggesting 20 as an upper limit maximum number of lines either. You should use the number of lines you feel are required for your main bus design to work efficiently. Not everyone is going to design things the same way.