Mods are a bit a pain in the a..

[Buntkreuz]

I love the mods that are available. But its a horrible system for the enduser the way it is. I for example want to use a multiplayer mod. But to have that mod working it tells me to also download 3 other mods. After downloading and installing those 3 mods i have to download and install 8 other mods because every ♥♥♥♥♥♥ mod has a dependancy needing a mod to actually work.
And the worst about this is, that i have to enable mods i dont want. I dont want a certain addition like a new assemblin machine or whatever when i only want new biome tiles. I dont want to have 100s of mods activated when i actually only want 7 to run. Its an endless chain of downloads i have to make to only get the small bunch i really want to work.
I recently installed only some minor mod changes, but had to also install and activate some big mods, which changed the whole layout of the game, added 5 new ores, dozens of research, new plates and dozens of other craftable items. I didnt want those and i certainly shouldnt need those things to get a mod running that in the end only changes Biter/Alien behaviour. I like my vanilla Factorio and only want some additions that are not impacting it too much. Such as more enemies, new biomes or some new items. Not 2k new items and changes.
Is it only me feeling that modding, although great with many cool ideas, is a pain in the a.. for the user at the end?
Or am i having a wrong go at it because i dont need all the mods to get the other mods working?
If so then great, i could reduce my actual mod pool from over 70 mods to only about 12.
But when every dumb mod has dependancies that cause me to download the whole catalogue why make a full list, instead give me all mods at once when i need them anyway (yeah im exaggerating here, but its actually not that far from the truth).

[Fireeye]

A list of mods you actually want to use would be helpful.
Also note, that dependencies with a question mark before the name are only optional dependencies. Those mods are not required and only indicate that the mod you want to use is aware of certain other mods. E.g. Resource Spawner Overhaul is aware of DyTech Machine, DyTech Core, Bob's enemies, Bob's ore and 5dim ores. It will change some things when those mods are present, but they aren't required for it to work.

[Buntkreuz]

Originally posted by Fireeye:

A list of mods you actually want to use would be helpful.
Also note, that dependencies with a question mark before the name are only optional dependencies. Those mods are not required and only indicate that the mod you want to use is aware of certain other mods. E.g. Resource Spawner Overhaul is aware of DyTech Machine, DyTech Core, Bob's enemies, Bob's ore and 5dim ores. It will change some things when those mods are present, but they aren't required for it to work.

Hi, thanks, that already helps. Its only one example out of several i encountered during the last half hour, but i wanted for example to get the SpaceBook Mod, to get more multiplayer settings to tweak.
This mod needs three other mods to run apparently. One is the Ressource Spawner Overhaul, which again needed about 5 mods. Each of those again needed at least 2 other mods and so on. In the end i had over 20 mods for only one i would actually use.

One would even cause an Error. Apparently the game doesnt like the Dytech Core Mod, as it contains a fluid with invalid temperature setting. When the game loads up it causes an error message and then closes. I had to go into the Appdata and manually remove the Dytech Core file to get the game running again.
So, Mods with a ? before the mod name under the tab "Dependencies" are optional to install and the mod will use without those?
I tried this out now and it seems to work. So just lacked the info that these mods are mostly optional and not really dependant for the mod to work (except some minor exceptions, like Waterfix).
I think i have a working list now.

[Fireeye]

Originally posted by NemesisZidar:

Originally posted by Fireeye:

A list of mods you actually want to use would be helpful.
Also note, that dependencies with a question mark before the name are only optional dependencies. Those mods are not required and only indicate that the mod you want to use is aware of certain other mods. E.g. Resource Spawner Overhaul is aware of DyTech Machine, DyTech Core, Bob's enemies, Bob's ore and 5dim ores. It will change some things when those mods are present, but they aren't required for it to work.

Hi, thanks, that already helps. Its only one example out of several i encountered during the last half hour, but i wanted for example to get the SpaceBook Mod, to get more multiplayer settings to tweak.
This mod needs three other mods to run apparently. One is the Ressource Spawner Overhaul, which again needed about 5 mods. Each of those again needed at least 2 other mods and so on. In the end i had over 20 mods for only one i would actually use.

One would even cause an Error. Apparently the game doesnt like the Dytech Core Mod, as it contains a fluid with invalid temperature setting. When the game loads up it causes an error message and then closes. I had to go into the Appdata and manually remove the Dytech Core file to get the game running again.
So, Mods with a ? before the mod name under the tab "Dependencies" are optional to install and the mod will use without those?

Yes, all mods with a ? before the mod name are optional. As for the example SpaceBook, it is aware of TimeTools, AutoPvP and rso-mod. However those dependencies are all marked as optional and the mod should also work if none of them are installed.

[Buntkreuz]

Thanks that helped me a lot. I guess thats why the dependencies arent listed on the mod list before you download them.
But actually they might have to change that system then.
It should call dependencies and then have a separate section for "Optional Mods" or something like that. And in the list of where you search and download mods, it should list the dependencies aswell as information, so you can directly load them and not all the time switch back and forth.

[KatherineOfSky]

The problem is with the mod-makers, not with the game itself. You could ask these folks to split up their mods into the various portions you like, but I don't think you would get many takers.

Most of the time dependencies are necessary, and (from my experience), they are packaged with the mods in question.

Perhps choose mods that are not part of a big modpack?

[Buntkreuz]

Originally posted by KatherineOfSky:

The problem is with the mod-makers, not with the game itself. You could ask these folks to split up their mods into the various portions you like, but I don't think you would get many takers.

Most of the time dependencies are necessary, and (from my experience), they are packaged with the mods in question.

Perhps choose mods that are not part of a big modpack?

Which would eliminate literally all good mods.
Just the search for multiplayer mods gives me about 4 results.
When i want to use a multiplayer mod i have a choice of 4, maybe less mods (i found only 2 directly linked to multiplayer changes). And as we know they are dependant on other mods. So i couldnt avoid that problem by any means.
Lets continue with biomes or more world tile mods. Searching for those gave me 3 results. 2 of them are the best, with the most interesting changes, both are dependant on other mods. Luckily one only needs a mod fixing a problem.
But you see, you couldnt really use any mod without having to download another one. There also often is no real connection there as to why you would need any of the dependant mods. For example, why would i need bobs ore mod for a change in multiplayer settings?

As we know now, these mods are optional, luckily.
Im just saying that using mods without dependencies is either impossible because there are none or it would limit the choice to mods that arent useful at all.
And just like i said, the game HAS a flaw in that regard that you cant push on the modders here. And thats information.
When you search the list of downloadable mods, can or can you not see their dependencies? You cant.
You have to download the mod, then load the whole game back up to see your installed mods, then you can see the dependencies.
Only to remember their name and search for them in the modlist. I literally had to take a photo of one mod as i couldnt remember the name of all 6 dependant mods.
The second flaw of lacking information is that the dependencies arent nessecary but optional (in cases).
I could only know that with getting this info from other users (which i did here) or with searching online in a wiki or something like that. I couldnt see anywhere, that the game tells me these mods are optional. It tells me that the mod is dependant on other mods.
So adding a separate field listing optional mods that work with the installed one, means more information and less confusion.
So, my initial critique targetted the wrong problem/audience.
I thought it was a problem with the modding system in general. But in fact its a problem of the game in delivering the correct information at the correct place.

[AlexMBrennan]

I thought it was a problem with the modding system in general. But in fact its a problem of the game in delivering the correct information at the correct place.

Yeah, it's work in progress - it took them until today's Friday Facts to introduce a solution to the problem of broken mods preventing you from launching the game entirely.

[KatherineOfSky]

@NemesisZidar -- I understood that your main complaint is that you don't want all the extra stuff that mods depend on. THAT is entirely up to mod-makers... and you.

A lot of these big mods are designed to work with other mods and don't make sense if you take them out of context. E.g. if you try to run Bob's Enemies (whatever it is called), with vanilla defenses, you will die... plain and simple, because you need to upgraded weapns, walls, etc. from Bob's armory division, etc.

The mod portal is indeed a work in progress. This is literally the first iteration of the concept. Previously, you had to install all the mods manually, so the portal is a step up from that. I ahve no doubt there will be changes as kinks are worked out. Check out the FFF that Alex is referring to to see some progress.

[Buntkreuz]

Originally posted by KatherineOfSky:

@NemesisZidar -- I understood that your main complaint is that you don't want all the extra stuff that mods depend on. THAT is entirely up to mod-makers... and you.

A lot of these big mods are designed to work with other mods and don't make sense if you take them out of context. E.g. if you try to run Bob's Enemies (whatever it is called), with vanilla defenses, you will die... plain and simple, because you need to upgraded weapns, walls, etc. from Bob's armory division, etc.

The mod portal is indeed a work in progress. This is literally the first iteration of the concept. Previously, you had to install all the mods manually, so the portal is a step up from that. I ahve no doubt there will be changes as kinks are worked out. Check out the FFF that Alex is referring to to see some progress.

as i said, that was my initial gripe. As it turned out then, my problem is in fact not what you write it is. My problem was that i THOUGHT i need all the other mods to have them running. Mostly my confusion with it was that there seemed to be dependencies on mods that had no real link to others. Like, using a mod that basically only gives you multiplayer options needing new ore types? Made no sense at all.
During this threads discussion however, it turned out that this isnt the case anyway.
Obviously i understand that a mod giving new craftable items may use ressources i only get with a certain mod. So it makes sense to have for example bobs warfare mod and the need to have bobs library mod or whatever because thats where they rely on. One gives the code and functions, the other gives the content.
In other words, obviously i understand that i cant use a mod giving me new research without the basic mod that also gives the items i research with it.
The core problem was, that nowhere i could see any information about any of that.
It needed the couraged comment of Fireeye to tell me that these mods arent nessecarily needed to run another mod. Which eliminates the original problem i had where i had to install over 50 mods to only run 10 and turned it into a problem of how the game communicates its modding function and interface. Period.
I am also an experienced Factorio User, i play this game since its early versions from their website. So i know that its a work in progress, its Early Access, now for how long? Over 4 years? I remember their Indiegogo campaign, i guess that was 2012 right with an alpha release in march 2013?

See my post on the way modding works as constructive critique that evolved in the process of discussing it. Im new to the modding portal, never used it before. But thats the whole point. Its not really userfirendly when it comes to information.
A weird fact, im by far not the only one. I literally saw a quite popular and big mod with a description, saying that it only has no real description because when it becomes too long, it prevents the mod from being uploaded.
Thread closed in my eyes, feel free to lock it.