please take another look at the fishing mini game

[The man behind the slaughter]

The fishing mini game is pretty bad. it would be nice if there was a sandbox setting to disable it or if they took another look at it maybe make a new minigame entirely cause the current one is just that bad

[Kikinaak]

Yes, it is bad. We have an option to disable the research minigame, and the sleep jumping minigame will autocomplete if left alone, just take a bit longer. We dont have to click and drag to assemble crap when crafting. We dont have a quicktime event when building furniture. We dont have to play some precision cutting minigame when carving a corpse. Why? Because these would add nothing but annoyance to the game.

But fishing, fishing ALWAYS gets turned into this stupid reaction and button holding crap where you get nothing and lose your resources if you fail. Because devs never stop and apply the same common sense to it. It doesn't make the game better. Give us the option to disable it, or make it RNG percentage based on character skill level.

[Kylnoffey]

Originally posted by Kikinaak:

Yes, it is bad. We have an option to disable the research minigame, and the sleep jumping minigame will autocomplete if left alone, just take a bit longer. We dont have to click and drag to assemble crap when crafting. We dont have a quicktime event when building furniture. We dont have to play some precision cutting minigame when carving a corpse. Why? Because these would add nothing but annoyance to the game.

But fishing, fishing ALWAYS gets turned into this stupid reaction and button holding crap where you get nothing and lose your resources if you fail. Because devs never stop and apply the same common sense to it. It doesn't make the game better. Give us the option to disable it, or make it RNG percentage based on character skill level.

But what's the point of fishing if you actually aren't fishing ? A pretty unlimited scrap and fish distributor at each click ?

[Crochwhisle purple]

Originally posted by Kylnoffey:

Originally posted by Kikinaak:

Yes, it is bad. We have an option to disable the research minigame, and the sleep jumping minigame will autocomplete if left alone, just take a bit longer. We dont have to click and drag to assemble crap when crafting. We dont have a quicktime event when building furniture. We dont have to play some precision cutting minigame when carving a corpse. Why? Because these would add nothing but annoyance to the game.

But fishing, fishing ALWAYS gets turned into this stupid reaction and button holding crap where you get nothing and lose your resources if you fail. Because devs never stop and apply the same common sense to it. It doesn't make the game better. Give us the option to disable it, or make it RNG percentage based on character skill level.

But what's the point of fishing if you actually aren't fishing ? A pretty unlimited scrap and fish distributor at each click ?

some things like apples and staplers are easier to get through fishing than waiting for them to respawn

[Kikinaak]

Originally posted by Kylnoffey:

But what's the point of fishing if you actually aren't fishing ? A pretty unlimited scrap and fish distributor at each click ?

Whats the point of any game mechanic? To add to the game. Apply that same argument to any other minigame we already have the option to disable, or the minor loot generator attachment to the craft bench. There is no other system in this game that uses this kind of obnoxious quicktime event crap that died in the 90s. Its out of place, and only frustrating.

Whats the point of crafting a workbench if its just done in a click? Why arent you forced to sit there and *actually* build, dragging parts onto an ikea style blueprint? Because it would be annoying AF, same as fishing is now.

If you enjoy pointless wiimote waggle, I could just blow you off and say go play on a wii. Instead, I'm pushing for an option. Let those who enjoy the system use it, and let those who don't skip it, just like the research minigame.

[Kylnoffey]

Originally posted by Kikinaak:

Originally posted by Kylnoffey:

But what's the point of fishing if you actually aren't fishing ? A pretty unlimited scrap and fish distributor at each click ?

Whats the point of any game mechanic? To add to the game. Apply that same argument to any other minigame we already have the option to disable, or the minor loot generator attachment to the craft bench. There is no other system in this game that uses this kind of obnoxious quicktime event crap that died in the 90s. Its out of place, and only frustrating.

I don't understand either the point of disabling the other minigames, but as far as I went they don't give ressources. Didn't make the craft bench generator but it's description sounded like it generates over time not each time you click on it, maybe I'm wrong
For the no other "obnoxious quicktime event" I don't undestand either, every minigames are QTE even if the QTE only shorts their duration

Originally posted by Kikinaak:

Whats the point of crafting a workbench if its just done in a click? Why arent you forced to sit there and *actually* build, dragging parts onto an ikea style blueprint? Because it would be annoying AF, same as fishing is now.

Building part by part (and the opposite) is actually a gameplay in other games...
Sure nothing like that in this one, building only requires to hold a button and have the tool. But my question is about the fact fishing is a way to get ressources, if you get them instantly, what's the point of not just fishing few seconds instead of looting areas ?

Originally posted by Kikinaak:

If you enjoy pointless wiimote waggle, I could just blow you off and say go play on a wii. Instead, I'm pushing for an option. Let those who enjoy the system use it, and let those who don't skip it, just like the research minigame.

Hardly see where I said there shouldn't be such option, never meant to be rude. My question is about gameplay balance and what's waited of the game if you play a survival game where some basic ressources are farmable instantly, unless I understood something wrong ?
I don't think either the fishing gameplay is incredible, but at least it looks quite original next to just waiting and pushing button when the rope finally moves like most games. I guessed it was still a work in progress until release since it's a bit buggy sometimes

[Kylnoffey]

Originally posted by Crochwhisle purple:

Originally posted by Kylnoffey:

But what's the point of fishing if you actually aren't fishing ? A pretty unlimited scrap and fish distributor at each click ?

some things like apples and staplers are easier to get through fishing than waiting for them to respawn

Looks like more a gamedesign issues about ressources gathering than about fishing gameplay, unless fishing is supposed to be a viable way to get ressources (maybe it is, I don't know all the game). If it is then maybe it would make sens to have an upgrade or another tool supposed to get more of those ressources

[Kikinaak]

Originally posted by Kylnoffey:

Hardly see where I said there shouldn't be such option, never meant to be rude. My question is about gameplay balance and what's waited of the game if you play a survival game where some basic ressources are farmable instantly, unless I understood something wrong ?
I don't think either the fishing gameplay is incredible, but at least it looks quite original next to just waiting and pushing button when the rope finally moves like most games. I guessed it was still a work in progress until release since it's a bit buggy sometimes

By that logic, you could argue for turning off respawn entirely (which is a sandbox option for those who want it). Fishing is at least doing something besides waiting for something to respawn, which is a far longer interval than your "just a few seconds". You talk about it being a way to get resources, well so is any other way to get resources, you go to the resource nodes, loot box, mining spot, water pond, whatever... and you click, and you get the resource. You don't need to play some stupid simon says game, you just get the resource. Packaging furniture is based on your characters skill, not player input. Same as crafting, you unlock new recipes and perks by practicing the skill and raising your level in it. And yes, the craft bench loot generator is a timed thing, doesn't need interaction to work, its just slow. The portal world resources respawn every night without needing to play some "portal recalibration" minigame.

My point is, every argument for the fishing minigame being somehow needed for balance falls apart when applied to anything but fishing. Thats the part where people stop thinking and fall back to "well thats the way its always done, so thats the way it has to be done." And the game suffers for it.

Look at fishing as done in everquest or ultima online, it was RNG but based on character skill, same as any other skill in those games, without forcing some quicktime reaction garbage on the player. As your character skill went up, you fished up junk less and got higher quality catches. Thats how you do it right. Same as other crafting. Chefs dont have to play cooking momma to make soup or bake. You could call the burning mechanic a timed minigame, but its a very forgiving one and its just a single click, not "hold button and spend the next solid minute following random inputs."

Look at OP again, and realize there are people who find the minigame pointless, tedious and annoying. Options exist to fine tune gameplay by turning off other minigames. Now ask, "what does forcing the fishing minigame actually ADD to this game?" And "How is giving players an option detrimental here?"

[Kylnoffey]

Originally posted by Kikinaak:

By that logic, you could argue for turning off respawn entirely (which is a sandbox option for those who want it). Fishing is at least doing something besides waiting for something to respawn, which is a far longer interval than your "just a few seconds". You talk about it being a way to get resources, well so is any other way to get resources, you go to the resource nodes, loot box, mining spot, water pond, whatever... and you click, and you get the resource. You don't need to play some stupid simon says game, you just get the resource. [...] The portal world resources respawn every night without needing to play some "portal recalibration" minigame.

My point is, every argument for the fishing minigame being somehow needed for balance falls apart when applied to anything but fishing. Thats the part where people stop thinking and fall back to "well thats the way its always done, so thats the way it has to be done." And the game suffers for it.

But all those example take something to be accomplished and then ""reward"" with a ressource, if you could just tp to every storage and automatically grab their loot without even caring, wouldn't it break some point of having ressources ? Fishing doesn't need you to move around unless I'm wrong, just go to one of the specific places where there is water and stand there. What's the point of ressources if you generate them instantly ?

There again, sure some people can wish to focus other aspects of the game instead of looting frequently and maybe late game it's loot long to loot basic stuff for what it's worth or the quantities asked, no idea how it is in Abiotic.
But supposing it is balanced to still be fun, I don't understand the fun if basic ressources are just instant and I wished to understand how the game is then played when in this way

Originally posted by Kikinaak:

Look at fishing as done in everquest or ultima online, it was RNG but based on character skill, same as any other skill in those games, without forcing some quicktime reaction garbage on the player. As your character skill went up, you fished up junk less and got higher quality catches. Thats how you do it right. Same as other crafting. Chefs dont have to play cooking momma to make soup or bake. You could call the burning mechanic a timed minigame, but its a very forgiving one and its just a single click, not "hold button and spend the next solid minute following random inputs."

Fair point for the cooking, even if it doesn't generate ressources it transforms one into another. Maybe I'm wrong but fishing doesn't require you to use baits nor damage the fishing rope, they just increase the luck to get what you aim for directly
If it's just RNG based without gameplay (and with a ressource cost I guess), it's just gambling where the more you play the more you can win ? Not what I would have thought for fishing but I guess that's also an original way

Only very recently found out skill doesn't much do in this side as you said, could have been usefull to have skill increase the luck of fishing fishes and maybe another tool where you get more luck fishing scraps if that's designed to be a way of gathering like someone else seems to say

Originally posted by Kikinaak:

Look at OP again, and realize there are people who find the minigame pointless, tedious and annoying. Options exist to fine tune gameplay by turning off other minigames. Now ask, "what does forcing the fishing minigame actually ADD to this game?" And "How is giving players an option detrimental here?"

I don't say the option shouldn't exist, or actually that fishing gameplay in the game shouldn't be changed.
I only wonder where goes part of the point of the survival with ressources when you can get those ressources instantly, since fishing is apparently illimited and the only thing it takes is crafting a fishing rope at least once, going somewhere you can fish and have some cooldown between loots because there is gameplay before the loot.
I only wish to understand the point, not to argue it's validity.

It's not ranked, not a challenge-focused game, mods are possible and seem to be free in their possibilites, save editing is apparently not prevented, etc. If you want to break the game there are already lot of ways and it's good this way because no point blocking that. I just ask why doing so in this game where ressources are quite a big part of it and it seems like I can't make that clear.
Maybe you don't care about the ressources or just not basic ressources after lot of hours already looting for them, maybe the late game is just too much farming currently, etc. up to something else I can't even imagine but that makes as much sens in another approach of the game. Out of curiosity, I wonder what it can be
Feel like i wrote that way too long but I felt bad not to answer

[Monokuma]

Instead of arguing about removing the fishing mechanics maybe it'd be better to, you know, suggest how to improve the fishing mechanics instead.

My main issue is there's no way to speed up the minigame with your skill level. The resource lottery when skinning fish combined with the time sink for each catch is the most glaring issue that can make people lose tolerance for the minigame as a whole.

It just needs refining. Putting the fishing rod(s) in the upgrade station to make catches faster would be an idea.

[MechWarden]

Or how about this...

If you want fish, but you don't want to do the fishing minigame, make fish traps better. Other than a few times earlier in our co-op run, fish traps have kinda sucked; and I haven't heard any resounding successes with them either since they were added.

[Monokuma]

Originally posted by MechWarden:

Or how about this...

If you want fish, but you don't want to do the fishing minigame, make fish traps better. Other than a few times earlier in our co-op run, fish traps have kinda sucked; and I haven't heard any resounding successes with them either since they were added.

I think the mandatory bait cost is what's killing it. I understand it's necessity to prevent miles of fishing traps being laid out on every single possible water surface in the facility, but the resource investment for what's meant to be a passive alternative doesn't seem all that useful.
I'd say maybe let it catch things at a dramatically reduced rate without bait. Like, portal reset frequency levels potentially. That way it can still function as a passive source of fish while also not outputting quite enough to be appealing in a cost:return ratio for mass production.

[Crochwhisle purple]

Originally posted by Kylnoffey:

Originally posted by Crochwhisle purple:

some things like apples and staplers are easier to get through fishing than waiting for them to respawn

Looks like more a gamedesign issues about ressources gathering than about fishing gameplay, unless fishing is supposed to be a viable way to get ressources (maybe it is, I don't know all the game). If it is then maybe it would make sens to have an upgrade or another tool supposed to get more of those ressources

fishing was advertised as the next best way to get staplers when the great stapler plague was at large

[Kylnoffey]

Originally posted by Crochwhisle purple:

Originally posted by Kylnoffey:

Looks like more a gamedesign issues about ressources gathering than about fishing gameplay, unless fishing is supposed to be a viable way to get ressources (maybe it is, I don't know all the game). If it is then maybe it would make sens to have an upgrade or another tool supposed to get more of those ressources

fishing was advertised as the next best way to get staplers when the great stapler plague was at large

Oh I get a bit more how long it can feel then, thank you
Seems like community lore around developpment is fun

[The man behind the slaughter]

Originally posted by MechWarden:

Or how about this...

If you want fish, but you don't want to do the fishing minigame, make fish traps better. Other than a few times earlier in our co-op run, fish traps have kinda sucked; and I haven't heard any resounding successes with them either since they were added.

fish traps are borderline useless. quite frankly a waste of resources. they have to be loaded to work AND you can generally only fit one of them in a body of water. Fish traps could be cool if they could work unloaded while i do other things around the facility but otherwise they will be completely useless. they also cant catch rares

[Kikinaak]

Originally posted by Monokuma:

Instead of arguing about removing the fishing mechanics maybe it'd be better to, you know, suggest how to improve the fishing mechanics instead.

My main issue is there's no way to speed up the minigame with your skill level. The resource lottery when skinning fish combined with the time sink for each catch is the most glaring issue that can make people lose tolerance for the minigame as a whole.

It just needs refining. Putting the fishing rod(s) in the upgrade station to make catches faster would be an idea.

When you go to package furniture, you get a flat RNG chance based on your construction skill. No minigame, no quicktime reaction BS. Thats how you improve fishing, by giving an option to skip that. You cast the line, it takes some time (based on your skill, bait, and whether you hit a hotspot) to get a nibble, then the result stays the same as it is if you succeed the minigame, what you catch is based on where you fish, what bait you use, and your skill. I'm not saying remove RNG entirely or make fishing instant, just skip the needlessly obnoxious minigame.

And yes, I agree with OP that fish traps should catch something without bait, even if it means a chance at catching trash, and a better chance at catching with bait.