Firearms need a rework

[Joseph Sneed]

Guns in this game are just not really satisfying to use and the system around them needs a total overhaul.

First off every gun other than the security pistol is locked behind the accuracy lv 10. This should be more spread out with things like the shotgun and revolver at a lower level like maybe about 6 as accuracy is very hard to level in the early game as well.

Secondly the arm band for using them is just stupid. The guns are not strong enough to warrant breaking a set bonus to use them particularly compared to how almost broken the lightning gun and grinder are that dont require this. Also you think these scientists would be able to make something like those but would not be able to make the guns work without the biometrics?

3rd some people are complaining about not being able to find the cleaning kit and personally I have yet to get a revolver. I think having set locations where this and at least one of each gun can be found considering drop rarity. My suggestions would be a revolver at the camp near the surface tunnel, a SMG and cleaning kit at the bunker outside the labs and one of each inside the base at the crossroads (considering thats such a hard fight.) The shotgun is a later weapon so not sure where one of those could be put.

Also ammo should be WAY more common than it is You are telling me that the order brought in ALL those crates and supplies yet I am lucky to find a few lose rounds of 9mm? Their bases should have ammo crates where you can get like 20-50 assorted rounds per box (as these are a finite resource) and each soldier should drop at LEAST a full magazines worth of ammo for their weapon and up to a mags and a half worth as otherwise there just isnt really enough ammo around to use them.

Finally durability needs to go up across the board as guns break way too quickly. The security pistol should be like twice what it is and I am guessing the others are the same.

I understand not wanting to make firearms too strong to avoid making them the go to but the fact ammo is such a limited resource already only really makes them viable for emergencies anyway. Once the suggested ammo crates are gone the only way to get more will be to go out and hunt soldiers giving you ether a poor return from using firearms to hunt them or forcing you to switch up weapons when gathering ammo ether way it still prevents firearms from becoming the be all end all.

[MechWarden]

Originally posted by Koffy:

go play another game, this isnt what the experience should be revolve around

You theme and take inspiration from HL1 for your game, and you are going to get a lot of people wanting to treat it like a guns-a-blazing FPS game. It's just going to happen.

You can't tell me that most players will not feel disappointed when picking up a dropped military weapons just to 1) not be able to use it at all for the longest time, and then 2) when finally able to use it find out that they break like cheap toys and have iffy effectiveness or ammo supplies.

Telling people to ignore years of game experience and play another game because their expectations are a bit misguided is not good form. I've played many of the HL games (before Steam even recorded it), and immersive sims, and the 'Overworld Guns' still need some work to feel right.

And yes, I know, I've said a long time ago that the focus is on the crafted sciency weapons, because that's a main selling point. Having easy to find guns overshadow crafted weapons would hurt the game more than what the current fragile guns are doing now. That's not to say that players don't have a point that the Overworld guns kinda suck right now.

[koffi duck]

Originally posted by MechWarden:

You theme and take inspiration from HL1 for your game, and you are going to get a lot of people wanting to treat it like a guns-a-blazing FPS game. It's just going to happen.

You can't tell me that most players will not feel disappointed when picking up a dropped military weapons just to 1) not be able to use it at all for the longest time, and then 2) when finally able to use it find out that they break like cheap toys and have iffy effectiveness or ammo supplies.

Telling people to ignore years of game experience and play another game because their expectations are a bit misguided is not good form. I've played many of the HL games (before Steam even recorded it), and immersive sims, and the 'Overworld Guns' still need some work to feel right.

And yes, I know, I've said a long time ago that the focus is on the crafted sciency weapons, because that's a main selling point. Having easy to find guns overshadow crafted weapons would hurt the game more than what the current fragile guns are doing now. That's not to say that players don't have a point that the Overworld guns kinda suck right now.

it's not the devs fault that players can't read. the main premise of the game is "what if you controlled a scientist in half life's resonance cascade? the pathetic ones who keep dying half the game? yeah those ones".

and even if Abiotic Factor is very "immersive sims-y" is also primarily a game of survival. Subnautica, Valheim, The Forest, Don't Starve just to name a few, Survival games with little to no focus on guns. and even then the intended of the game is pretty obvious

[MechWarden]

Originally posted by Koffy:

Originally posted by MechWarden:

You theme and take inspiration from HL1 for your game, and you are going to get a lot of people wanting to treat it like a guns-a-blazing FPS game. It's just going to happen.

You can't tell me that most players will not feel disappointed when picking up a dropped military weapons just to 1) not be able to use it at all for the longest time, and then 2) when finally able to use it find out that they break like cheap toys and have iffy effectiveness or ammo supplies.

Telling people to ignore years of game experience and play another game because their expectations are a bit misguided is not good form. I've played many of the HL games (before Steam even recorded it), and immersive sims, and the 'Overworld Guns' still need some work to feel right.

And yes, I know, I've said a long time ago that the focus is on the crafted sciency weapons, because that's a main selling point. Having easy to find guns overshadow crafted weapons would hurt the game more than what the current fragile guns are doing now. That's not to say that players don't have a point that the Overworld guns kinda suck right now.

it's not the devs fault that players can't read. the main premise of the game is "what if you controlled a scientist in half life's resonance cascade? the pathetic ones who keep dying half the game? yeah those ones".

and even if Abiotic Factor is very "immersive sims-y" is also primarily a game of survival. Subnautica, Valheim, The Forest, Don't Starve just to name a few, Survival games with little to no focus on guns. and even then the intended of the game is pretty obvious

Actually, it partly is 'the devs fault'. At the very least it is their problem they have to address, regardless on if it is fair or not.
(and it isn't like the problem was unforeseeable, given how they wisely pre-nerfed the guns, to some people's annoyance)

It isn't just 'players not reading', it is presentation and expectations. The examples you give, Subnatica, Valheim, Don't Starve, etc they aren't FPS games, and don't have such an issue. Subnatica can't be a shooter because there barely are any guns in the game! Prey (2017) would be a closer example of an immersive sim that is first person and has guns, but it also has a limit on weapons to cut down on the run-and-gun aspect that HL is known for.

Even ignoring the default mode of some players to run in and start blasting, the fact that Overworld guns are so easy to break and have so little ammo to make semi regular bases unworkable is frustrating in of itself. Last I played it, Prey didn't have that bad of an ammo situation, and the durability didn't feel as bad as it does in this game. So comparing more on apples to apples, the guns in this game still need work.

That said, I'm not stressing out about the guns here, since I know it will take time and effort for the devs to find the right balance between usable find weapons and still keep the cool crafted weapons from being overshadowed.

[Terranaut]

Shotgun FL when.

[Countersync]

The guns also SEEM like the logical progression along the ranged chain...

Makeshift Crossbow
Scattershot thing (one round reload... ick but OK it's like a breach musket thing)
Suddenly Security Pistol, OMG it has 8 rounds and actually works a little before I have to reload.

However the real idea is to build the electric gun and the grinder gun. I loved the power, hated how often grinder rounds seemed to just stick on or bounce during what must be I-frames? Also I STILL thirst for rebar at end of initial Early Access content.

[Iraneth The Goat]

I feel like I played a different game then everyone else. For me the guns where really strong. Yes the crafted guns are good but they all have weird kinks too them. Where as once you get the bioarms and act 10 you can pull out a normal SMG and gun down a room full of people in 2 seconds. I don't see the issue everyone is complaing about.

I also see the idea of "Why even have them then???!?". I can 100% garentee if they where not usable by the player the same people would be complaining that they can't use the over world guns. So at the end of the day you can't make everyone happy, so don't worry about it.

[Monokuma]

Originally posted by Goat:

I feel like I played a different game then everyone else. For me the guns where really strong. Yes the crafted guns are good but they all have weird kinks too them. Where as once you get the bioarms and act 10 you can pull out a normal SMG and gun down a room full of people in 2 seconds. I don't see the issue everyone is complaing about.

I also see the idea of "Why even have them then???!?". I can 100% garentee if they where not usable by the player the same people would be complaining that they can't use the over world guns. So at the end of the day you can't make everyone happy, so don't worry about it.

I'm actually fully convinced that the "overworld firearms are underpowered" crowd are center-massing their shots like other first person shooters, or are using them on enemies who are resistant to ballistics (like the shotgunner). I find the 9mms shine the best used on pests/peccaries/exors with the appropriate headshots, and I use mugnades for the soldiers themselves. Magnum one-shots a lot of things on a headshot as well. Shotgun ammo is woefully scarce after opening furniture store, though.


Also, yeah, if this half-life aesthetic game didn't have the ability to use standard firearms we would never hear the end of it. Much like how we're never going to hear the end of ammosexuals wanting this game to be like every other shooter instead of using the rest of the crafted arsenal, as the game design is heavily weighted towards using crafted items as your solution for combat.

[MechWarden]

For better or worse, you have many options to take out enemies, but with current changes it feels like almost any weapon can be effective if you know what you are doing.

Earlier in development, I did find the handgun to be pretty effective and suitably ammo efficient when taking time to aim properly, but I did abuse the flashlight mod repair exploit to keep them around for longer. Even then, I was going though more ammo than I could loot (but that might be different now). Later on, the seemingly slight buff to the SMG was noticeable, moving it to my preferred 9mm weapon, given me the option to pull off accurate (enough) single fire shots, or effective burst fire, but at the cost of a bit of armor. Oh darn... guess I'll have to kill things quickly so to not get hit /sarcasm (like I typically do nowadays).

The revolver feels like it is almost right out of HL1 with its insane stopping power (with head shots). Just a shame the ammo and gun is so rare, but good news, if you are good at aiming the ammo and the gun last a long time! One shot, one kill!

I occasionally break out the military weapons after hoarding so many guns and ammo. Every time I try them out, I often have to carry a second SMG simply because it breaks so fast with regular use when out and about, which feels weird. Not like I'm put off about it though, since I have way too many SMGs in storage and am often tempted to break some down before even using them!

As with most of the game, it feels a bit awkward (which makes some sense for Early Access), since things just seem to run out or break down faster than what's seen in other games. If I'm having this kind of a problem as 1) a solo player that can hoard everything for myself and 2) leaning more into melee sneak attacks anyway, then I'd feel really sorry for those that want to try to somehow main with Overworld weapons with friends; and if those friends want to do that as well.
(There can be only one Gordon Freeman that is allowed to run and gun, and he isn't any of the player characters)
(Also, we don't have an armored, likely power assisted, hazmat suit with medical and military systems in it, so that's a double no for Freeman cosplays in game... for now?)
...
Now that I think about it, does the Sigil of the Hearth trinket make guns more viable?

[Countersync]

I was wearing the item you mention for a bit while trying to use guns, and found it not-viable, at least while trying to grind ammo (single player) in the Shipping Logistics intersection area. It probably WOULD be if a well placed headshot were always an option, but invariably everyone and their mom would get called in and between the death loops eating gun durability, the low repair kit drop rates, and generally trying to use that ammo on the fly rather than as an improvised sniper rifle...

Yeah it wasn't viable for me, a rather casual player. Some FPS expert might have different results.

[Foxassassin]

Originally posted by Monokuma:

Originally posted by Goat:

I feel like I played a different game then everyone else. For me the guns where really strong. Yes the crafted guns are good but they all have weird kinks too them. Where as once you get the bioarms and act 10 you can pull out a normal SMG and gun down a room full of people in 2 seconds. I don't see the issue everyone is complaing about.

I also see the idea of "Why even have them then???!?". I can 100% garentee if they where not usable by the player the same people would be complaining that they can't use the over world guns. So at the end of the day you can't make everyone happy, so don't worry about it.

I'm actually fully convinced that the "overworld firearms are underpowered" crowd are center-massing their shots like other first person shooters, or are using them on enemies who are resistant to ballistics.

I'm not sure anyone has even said that they're 'underpowered'.

It's about a power balance between crafted weapons... as said before...

In just a few minutes you can amass the resources to make dozens if not hundreds of Grinder disks and scrapshot ammo, and use them the moment you gather their materials.

Or you can farm for hours or more, RNG dependent on getting ammo for things you can't use until you've either burned through a ton of it on the Pistol, or -already- crafted and used the makeshift weapons. And that's not even if RNG blesses you with weapon drops (I have a chest filled with weapons I can't use, but it's theoretically possible)

And that's not even counting the efficacy of justifying statistics. Pistol is 26, SMG is 30 damage. With your limited supply of ammo can you justify wasting that on the pistol over saving it for the SMG, prolonging the situation.

At this point I feel like the Biometric armwraps just need to be dropped and give people a massive penalty to accuracy, reload or having 'accidents' like uncontrolled fire or accidental discharges instead of barring those weapons outright until skill levels raise.

[Monokuma]

Originally posted by Foxassassin:

{snipped for thread readability}

But arguing that there's a power balance issue between overworld weapons and crafted weapons... is an argument that they're underpowered. People are treating the guns like they're supposed to be an intended main weapon instead of an intermediary, like how you don't just walk around using wrench you picked up off the ground, you work towards making the fancy crafted tech stuff. The niche for overworld firearms is that they're almost as effective as the crafted stuff unlike, say, a knife vs a spear in offices, but they can't be used for extended periods. Yeah, the grinder is going to be more effective and easier to get a hold of, but that's explicitly the point. If I was focusing on blunt weapons, I'm not going to main a rat scanner, I'd use something like the thermal mallet or the tech sceptre.

[Foxassassin]

Originally posted by Monokuma:

The niche for overworld firearms is that they're almost as effective as the crafted stuff unlike, say, a knife vs a spear in offices, but they can't be used for extended periods. Yeah, the grinder is going to be more effective and easier to get a hold of, but that's explicitly the point.

You're trying to tell me that something that is; equally, if not more effective than anything you can find, easier to not only obtain, but maintain and supply and more reliable is good balance?

Originally posted by Foxassassin:

The problem with this is; What's the point of conventional firearms then? If we're to be slapped on the wrist and told 'no', why even have them in? A hyperbole, sure, but it feels that way.

I'm not saying crafted weapons need to be bad, but, there's borderline no incentive to use conventional weapons with the hoops you have to jump through to even -use- them, let alone keep them maintained and supplied. Worsened as mentioned in multiplayer.

First page.

There is -no incentive- to make the effort to use them.

This is not about how good or bad overworld weapons are. There's no reason to use them over the alternatives.

That is not good balance.

Edit: I'll also say again. I feel like the Biometic armwraps being dropped would solve alot of this problem.

Being able to use the weapons at the players discretion, without lengthy hoops, at a penalty, would be enough to justify overworld guns being used as a 'holdover'.

[Monokuma]

Originally posted by Foxassassin:

Originally posted by Monokuma:

The niche for overworld firearms is that they're almost as effective as the crafted stuff unlike, say, a knife vs a spear in offices, but they can't be used for extended periods. Yeah, the grinder is going to be more effective and easier to get a hold of, but that's explicitly the point.

You're trying to tell me that something that is; equally, if not more effective than anything you can find, easier to not only obtain, but maintain and supply and more reliable is good balance?

When your game design is focused on crafted equipment? Yeah. That's the point. The game's whole thing is being a big science nerd who's taking common items and turning them into effective tools. Making common findable items just as effective as the craftables invalidates the whole premise.

[SPINE]

I do not see a huge problem in the way guns feel
HOWEVER some gun animations are broken and has visual artifacts and still yet to be fixed
i dont like the smg ready animation the telescopic stock just jitters by it self and it looks weird like the back part of the gun is cutting trough the stock bars

[SPINE]

You are right about ammo tho they just magdump you forever and only drop 6 bullets? WITH the trinket equipped?