Firearms need a rework

[Joseph Sneed]

Guns in this game are just not really satisfying to use and the system around them needs a total overhaul.

First off every gun other than the security pistol is locked behind the accuracy lv 10. This should be more spread out with things like the shotgun and revolver at a lower level like maybe about 6 as accuracy is very hard to level in the early game as well.

Secondly the arm band for using them is just stupid. The guns are not strong enough to warrant breaking a set bonus to use them particularly compared to how almost broken the lightning gun and grinder are that dont require this. Also you think these scientists would be able to make something like those but would not be able to make the guns work without the biometrics?

3rd some people are complaining about not being able to find the cleaning kit and personally I have yet to get a revolver. I think having set locations where this and at least one of each gun can be found considering drop rarity. My suggestions would be a revolver at the camp near the surface tunnel, a SMG and cleaning kit at the bunker outside the labs and one of each inside the base at the crossroads (considering thats such a hard fight.) The shotgun is a later weapon so not sure where one of those could be put.

Also ammo should be WAY more common than it is You are telling me that the order brought in ALL those crates and supplies yet I am lucky to find a few lose rounds of 9mm? Their bases should have ammo crates where you can get like 20-50 assorted rounds per box (as these are a finite resource) and each soldier should drop at LEAST a full magazines worth of ammo for their weapon and up to a mags and a half worth as otherwise there just isnt really enough ammo around to use them.

Finally durability needs to go up across the board as guns break way too quickly. The security pistol should be like twice what it is and I am guessing the others are the same.

I understand not wanting to make firearms too strong to avoid making them the go to but the fact ammo is such a limited resource already only really makes them viable for emergencies anyway. Once the suggested ammo crates are gone the only way to get more will be to go out and hunt soldiers giving you ether a poor return from using firearms to hunt them or forcing you to switch up weapons when gathering ammo ether way it still prevents firearms from becoming the be all end all.

[Joseph Sneed]

another suggestion I saw was having the option to modify and upgrade the guns to make them more sciency. An upgrade that makes the SMG and pistol have smart targeting (basically a shotgun like area where they will auto aim at the target like titanfalls smart pistol) and craftable ammo with some tech scraps and metal scraps as well as some kind of propellant. This is just an example and other stuff could be done for the shotgun and revolver. This would also remove the biometrics on all guns and make them better to use.

[L3velDr4in]

Why would you even bother with the 9mm guns when there is the grinder? It fires super fast, is accurate, 1-3 headshots kill anything, can recover ammo and has infinite ammo (via rebar via train runs).

[StealFire14]

hehe me like big stick

[Joseph Sneed]

Originally posted by L3velDr4in:

Why would you even bother with the 9mm guns when there is the grinder? It fires super fast, is accurate, 1-3 headshots kill anything, can recover ammo and has infinite ammo (via rebar via train runs).

Part of why I suggested the smart targeting upgrade. I am also not just talking about the security pistol here all of the guns kind of need help.

[sokolov]

Originally posted by Joseph Sneed:

Guns in this game are just not really satisfying to use

That's the point of the game.
/thread

[Joseph Sneed]

Originally posted by Sokolov:

Originally posted by Joseph Sneed:

Guns in this game are just not really satisfying to use

That's the point of the game.
/thread

These a difference between satisfying and so worthless its not even worth having them in game. I was understating to avoid sounding whiney but apparently some people are too dense for that. Go be retarded somewhere else.

[MechWarden]

Originally posted by Joseph Sneed:

Originally posted by Sokolov:

That's the point of the game.
/thread

These a difference between satisfying and so worthless its not even worth having them in game. I was understating to avoid sounding whiney but apparently some people are too dense for that. Go be retarded somewhere else.

Not going to lie, saying 'that is the point' isn't the best way to explain things.

The better answer is that one of the selling points of the game is being able to craft crazy sciency makeshift weapons. Having weapons you 'just pick up off the ground' be better than the weapon you spent time and effort researching and crafting would feel even worse.

I get it, having Overworld weapons feel so terrible, especially for a game themed off of the looks of Half-Life 1 (where you literally do just that, pick up perfectly effective weapons off the floor) feels really awkward at the very least. But the devs have a point, that making found military guns being too effective would kill the theme they are wanting to do.

While it doesn't feel great, the better way to find a balance for something like this, especially with regular players doing play testing, is to pre-nerf one aspect hard and slowly improve it. Nerfing or taking away stuff from players after they are used to something is a good way of making them even more upset.

I would be shocked if the next good sized patch or two didn't address this again and improved guns a bit more. There has been a update that improved guns, and it did make them more viable.

[sokolov]

Originally posted by MechWarden:

Not going to lie, saying 'that is the point' isn't the best way to explain things.

It is the only way to respond to a dense community that thinks this is a 1:1 Half-Life clone then whines when developers literally want the intended approach to be scientific items instead of ordinary items.
Its the sole reason why we even got weapon repair kits in the game or nerfed spawn rates.
Because the players are dense.

I love having the game ruined just because the average Billy who hadn't touched any game in their life apart of Call of Duty and thinks everything is about shooty shooty and regenerating health.

If the devs hadn't included the guns, people would whine.
If the devs include the guns but made them weak on purpose to encourage usage of crafted items, people whine that they're too weak.
If the devs buff the guns, people whine that they cannot be repaired.
If the devs add a way to repair the guns, people whine that the repair method is too scarce or hard to do.

Honestly they shouldn't have added guns at all, or at least made Security the only role to be able to reliably use them just so people shut the ♥♥♥♥ up about it.

[MechWarden]

Someone is overly .

Also, you do know that the devs don't just listen to players on this forum or social media, right? They collect gameplay data and see what people are using and how far and fast they are progressing, and so on. So it isn't just a few ranters making a stink and 'ruining your game'. The devs are literally getting feedback from the silent majority as they play the game.

'The sole reason why repair kits were added' is your opinion and assumption, not fact. You make it sound like the devs are more dense than the 'dense players', unable to imagine the need for such a basic item until someone beats them over the head with it.

You are acting just as bad, if not worse, than the people you hate, being overly biased and simplistic with your point of view.

Yes, some people, not everyone, not even the majority of them, are going to complain about something. If you can't handle it, then leave. It is doing nobody any good (for you and for others) to give such rants. Being annoyed by a bug or flaw and giving pointed feedback is one thing, but making blankets insults about how some nebulous group of people are ruining things is not feedback.

[Foxassassin]

I feel like I saw this posted somewhere else; Guns are more common than repairkits. The repair kits feel kind of pointless when it takes significantly more effort to farm them then it does the guns outright.

If we could craft repair kits, possibly at a premium, it would make the option of repair more appealing, in conjunction with being able to modify or improve a gun to make it one you -want- to keep as opposed to tossing it out for the next one you have.

In my solo world I have just gotten to Manufacturing West and have been in constant firefights with The Order, and, in a couple hours worth of playtime total have a chest completely filled with Pistols, Smg's and Revolvers. Not a single repair kit has dropped (Or flew into the abyss, but I can't say for sure).

But this is all exacerbated by the requirement for the Biometic arm wraps. All of that gunfighting and I'm only level 4 or 5 accuracy. By the time I even gain the ability to use those guns I'd have run out of ammo before I run out of usable guns.

Another thing that would be nice,if possible, should a gun does drop, drop with a random amount of ammo -in- the gun. SMG drops, an extra handful of rounds inside it that can be unloaded.

[Joseph Sneed]

Originally posted by Foxassassin:

I feel like I saw this posted somewhere else; Guns are more common than repairkits. The repair kits feel kind of pointless when it takes significantly more effort to farm them then it does the guns outright.

If we could craft repair kits, possibly at a premium, it would make the option of repair more appealing, in conjunction with being able to modify or improve a gun to make it one you -want- to keep as opposed to tossing it out for the next one you have.

In my solo world I have just gotten to Manufacturing West and have been in constant firefights with The Order, and, in a couple hours worth of playtime total have a chest completely filled with Pistols, Smg's and Revolvers. Not a single repair kit has dropped (Or flew into the abyss, but I can't say for sure).

But this is all exacerbated by the requirement for the Biometic arm wraps. All of that gunfighting and I'm only level 4 or 5 accuracy. By the time I even gain the ability to use those guns I'd have run out of ammo before I run out of usable guns.

Another thing that would be nice,if possible, should a gun does drop, drop with a random amount of ammo -in- the gun. SMG drops, an extra handful of rounds inside it that can be unloaded.

the gun having ammo in it would definitely help the situation as frankly you dont get enough ammo in single player if you are playing with others using firearms is completely nonviable because of how rare ammo is. I feel like at least shot shells should be craftable as they are easier to make than other types of conventional ammo. You could make some with some plastic,scrap metal and ethanol for the propellant.

Personally I have not had a problem with the repair kits considering all order enemies have a chance of dropping one and they are unlimited use once you have one its fine I think though I do think having one in the bunker in the labs would be good for people that have had an issue getting one.

The armwraps are honestly my biggest gripe about guns even over ammo. lv 10 is extremely late and biometrics are not used on firearms irl for a reason. Even if the order were to use the completely impractical technology isnt the whole point of the game you are a smart scientist and should be smart enough to remove such tech and make the gun work without it? it is just stupid. A smart person would use the best tool for the job at hand and that tool would generally be a firearm if you have them available.

[Countersync]

I only crafted the grinder gun about an hour ago, but... The Grinder is like _the Answer_ to the limitations I had with the security pistol and being less than Guns 10 (no military weapons at all; which is SILLY!), repair kits, all the other stuff.

I've only used it on one trip back into the Labs, intending to farm capacitors off of techo-chus (the shocking fat rat aliens), and detoured through that room with the shotgun guy I couldn't defeat before. Grinder was SO worth the effort. Enough that I'm now farming grinder ammo on the Train world.

Edit: I had completely forgotten that gun existed until I read posts on these forums. The game really needs a better discoverability / rediscover / hint system to help link problems to solutions.

[Monokuma]

The ammo problem is because the developers don't want people over-relying on dropped firearms. You're meant to be crafting weird science guns and using them, and the devs push you towards that by making standard ammo difficult to accumulate and making guns (until now) non-repairable. I don't think they wanted to add the gun repair kits in the first place, but it's something a lot of people were asking for rather frequently.

Also, we have to keep in mind there's several major updates and sectors left to go. The end of Labs isn't even the halfway point of the game, there's a ton of content we've yet to experience. It's entirely possible down the line we'll have craftable ammunition for dropped firearms at some point, or even a way to turn them into cooler bullet-based firearms. Hell, we haven't even entered Security sector.

[Foxassassin]

Originally posted by Joseph Sneed:

Personally I have not had a problem with the repair kits considering all order enemies have a chance of dropping one and they are unlimited use once you have one its fine I think though I do think having one in the bunker in the labs would be good for people that have had an issue getting one.

They're -unlimited-? That changes everything then. I have only gotten my first (And no damaged guns to use it on) today. I assumed they were one time use like everything else.

Originally posted by Monokuma:

The ammo problem is because the developers don't want people over-relying on dropped firearms. You're meant to be crafting weird science guns and using them, and the devs push you towards that by making standard ammo difficult to accumulate and making guns (until now) non-repairable. I don't think they wanted to add the gun repair kits in the first place, but it's something a lot of people were asking for rather frequently.

Also, we have to keep in mind there's several major updates and sectors left to go. The end of Labs isn't even the halfway point of the game, there's a ton of content we've yet to experience. It's entirely possible down the line we'll have craftable ammunition for dropped firearms at some point, or even a way to turn them into cooler bullet-based firearms. Hell, we haven't even entered Security sector.

The problem with this is; What's the point of conventional firearms then? If we're to be slapped on the wrist and told 'no', why even have them in? A hyperbole, sure, but it feels that way.

Why have the crafted weapons almost objectively better than anything that could drop?

A balance needs to be struck between ease of access and practical use. Most games that have crafted weapons tend to be the lowest rung of a ladder. They exist to tide people over until they can get literally anything else.

I'm not saying crafted weapons need to be bad, but, there's borderline no incentive to use conventional weapons with the hoops you have to jump through to even -use- them, let alone keep them maintained and supplied. Worsened as mentioned in multiplayer.

Farm for an hour for enough ammo, or craft the Ripper and make enough grinder disks explore for an hour?

[Night Nord]

I actually like the way it is setup. It's a choice - you can "spec" into firearms (both shotgun, antique shotgun and revolver are very good. SMG and pistol are more of a backup thing) by sacrificing armor and a trinket (since you want to use the order trinket that gives more ammo) or you can spec into crafted weapons. This is especially neat in multiplayer where there isn't enough ammo for everyone and crafted weapons eat into resources that you need to farm.

I agree that firearms IMO may use some improvements to be a par with late-game crafted weapons but I feel it should be more nuanced. For example:
1. Would be nice to have more specialized order armor with more weapon/mobility-related set bonuses. Basic bionic wraps durability is sad - I am ok with them being less armor but I would like some progression in that sense.
2. Maybe make manufactured ammo stack more? So it's more inventory efficient. A super cool feature for the 1. would be to have armor with specialized sockets for the manufactured guns (which are less unwieldy than the crafted ones). This will make manufactured weapons a viable choice even in single-player/solo gameplay, even if they are less powerful than the crafted weapons.
3. Would be nice to have more customization options like the underbarrel flashlight. Shouldn't be anything super flashy - just to give some nice touch to the weapon. For example, a shotgun may use a bayonette to melee people when you ran out of ammo. An SMG may use an underbarrel grenade launcher (for both crafted and manufactured grenades)
4. Shotgun reloading should probably take the ammo already in it into consideration, so you can have fast reload if you need to add just a couple buckshots. Also if you sprint it shouldn't keep the ammo already loaded. This will give a shotgun a significant combat flexibility

A bit unrelated but it would also be nice to have other options for the shield socket that are useful ranged weapons. This may also be a differentiation between the manufactured and crafted weapons. Like you can have a bipod that increases accuracy when crouching or something.

Basically I don't thihk that there has to be a full rework or that the manufactured weapons need significant buffs - but I think it would be nice to have even more differentiation. I see them as high mobility, low weight, high flexibility and high accuracy option. Weapons for more tactical approach - scouting, stealth, long-range kills. Crafted weapons and related armor seem to be heavily leaning into tanking, so I feel like this is a natural differentiation but ATM I think that difference is not too pronounced. It would be nice if it would be