Particle Fleet: Emergence

Particle Fleet: Emergence

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The Warden Oct 4, 2016 @ 6:44pm
Particulate vs Creeper
Who wins and why?
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Showing 31-43 of 43 comments
Cyrnakka Emperor Mar 13, 2017 @ 8:52am 
Originally posted by The Empire:
The particulate doesn't have gravity to worry about.
Particulates have gravity.
Gravity of lands.
JELLYLORD Aug 9, 2017 @ 1:25pm 
If the lathe works on creeper emitters then I would say particulate because they can destroy their source, whereas the creeper, to my knowledge, can't destroy emitters of any kind.
TSP Aug 9, 2017 @ 2:35pm 
Originally posted by JELLYLORD:
whereas the creeper, to my knowledge, can't destroy emitters of any kind.
As far as lore goes; creeper destroys absolutely everything. Things only exist in creeper because the creeper wants them to (Such as in CW3, where it was intended for Abraxis to find the tech, totems and ark)

I am not 100% sure on the above, because creeper emitters go inactive sometimes until there's activity on planets (Such as in CW2/3); and this is strange, especially if said planets don't need to exist for the "Loki plan" to exist.

Sometimes Creeper annihilates planets, other times it just lets it exist or goes inactive.
evilauthor Oct 18, 2017 @ 11:16pm 
As others have said, lorewise, the Creeper wins. The Creeper gets spread throughout the universe and was made by a race more advanced than humanity has ever reached. The Particulate is just a cheap copy made by the Seloi and so far as anyone knows, never leaves Redacted Space which is only a small corner of a single galaxy.

I'd still like to see a Creeper vs Particulate battle though. Red vs Blue Creeper World style!
Ovalcircle (Banned) Nov 4, 2017 @ 9:41pm 
It all depends on how the Creeper is transported through space. Does it actually flow towards planets or does it launch spores to travel? Both can assimilate technology for their own use. Mire acts as dicount creeper, so the Particulate can put up a fight on the ground. Doppels can soak up creeper and regenerate. Particulate ships can regen. The Particulate have no nullifiers, but I'm assuming that lathes can act as a an adequate substitute.However, the Creeper has the Loki in charge of everything, so they have that advantage. Final answer: Ground game = Creeper. Air game = Particulate.
Last edited by Ovalcircle; Nov 4, 2017 @ 9:41pm
TSP Nov 4, 2017 @ 11:06pm 
The creeper can shift in and out of dimensions. For example, a spaceship such as in CW3 could enter hyperspace and come out of hyperspace with creeper on-board. There are also missions where creeper in CW3 enters... I forgot the technical name for it, some sort of subspace in some missions.

So it can travel by means of spores, simple self replication (Such as you seeing the creeper flow) and actual dimensions. I don't think the dev has ever explained how much energy is required for the latter or how often it happens or anything like that, there simply are cases where it happened in missions and storyline over CW1-CW3's journey.
Ovalcircle (Banned) Nov 5, 2017 @ 10:36am 
Originally posted by Agent Orange:
The creeper can shift in and out of dimensions. For example, a spaceship such as in CW3 could enter hyperspace and come out of hyperspace with creeper on-board. There are also missions where creeper in CW3 enters... I forgot the technical name for it, some sort of subspace in some missions.

So it can travel by means of spores, simple self replication (Such as you seeing the creeper flow) and actual dimensions. I don't think the dev has ever explained how much energy is required for the latter or how often it happens or anything like that, there simply are cases where it happened in missions and storyline over CW1-CW3's journey.
It's called Slipspace and I totally forgot about that.
Last edited by Ovalcircle; Nov 5, 2017 @ 10:36am
Paladin Nov 29, 2017 @ 11:54am 
The creeper will win against particle... at the end , check Creeper World 3 Arc Eternal.
Last edited by Paladin; Nov 29, 2017 @ 11:54am
PhailRaptor Jan 1, 2018 @ 1:55am 
*** Disclaimer : Spoilers for both PF and CW3 contained within. Turn back now if you care about such things ***

So, there's a lot of things we do know, about both the Particulate, and the Creeper. But, there are also a lot of things we don't know, as well. A lot of the loop holes in our knowledge are a result of gameplay limitations. However, some of them we can infer based on what we do know.

The Loki created the Creeper for a single end goal, which it goes about in 2 parts. The purpose is to reveal the Arc Eternal, an object that is singular to a given universe out of the multiverse at large. No matter how many variations there are in the multiverse, a given Arc Eternal is specific to it's own universe, and is different for each universe. This object acts as a specific reference point, from which you can calculate any and all changes along the timeline of that given universe from it's birth to it's death. Basically, it gives you free liscence to go forward and backward in time at will and make whatever changes you want and control the outcome of every decision point throughout all of space and time.

The Creeper is a tool to reveal the Arc Eternal. It does so through 2 mechanisms. First, it acts as a data collector. It records information from and about things it comes in contact with. Still, recording all the data from the entire universe is... well, an extreme amount of data. For pure practicality's sake, as well as a defense mechanism, the Creeper also reduces the complexity of anything it comes into contact with. It dissolves people into biological compounts, and reduces machinery to base metals, etc. This reduces the amount of information that needs to be collected and stored, while also ensuring that onces the Creeper "conquored" an area or planet, it was pretty much lost to any living things trying to survive it.

Of course, as a purely innert "force of nature", the Creeper isn't particularly formidible. It's the intent and innovation of the Loki behind it that makes it so dangerous and insidious. Whenever Humanity developed an effective defense against the Creeper, the Loki engineered a way for the Creeper to take advantage of it, or completely ignore it. Spores to spread Creeper through space, and to cross to distant landmasses. Digitalis, initially used to consume Emitters, instead becomes a tool for the Creeper to cross terrain elevations as if they were not there, and can be used to cross short distances through space if liquid Creeper manages to spread there.

Now, to the Particulate. The Particulate was engineered by the Humans of the Seloi civilization. They were one of a relatively small number of Human civilizations to actually know about, and come to understand the nature of the Creeper threat, and it's Loki masters, before ever encountering it. Most notable, in CW3 we learn that among the civilizations that attempted to contact the Loki, the Seloi were the only ones to ever recieve a response from the Loki. Likely, this is because the Seloi also learned of the Loki's goal. Somewhere along the line, they also attempted to do exactly what the Loki were doing -- discover the Arc Eternal, with the goal of preventing the Loki from doing so. So the Seloi created the Particulate.

There are an awful lot of similarities between the Particulate and the Creeper, as it turns out. Both are sourced from Emitters. Both destroy other substances on contact. And both are largely autonomous. But the big difference is that where the Creeper reduces the total information content of the universe, the Particulate increases it. Yes, destroying other objects and substances does reduce that information content. But the Particulate is prone to increasing it's own complexity in a way the Creeper is incapable of doing. Single particles bind together to make almost molecular forms. These molecules can themselves combine to form chains, snakes, clusters, and blobs. It is even able to create complex structures out of itself. Energy mines, Doppel Spawners, and Ship Founderies.

Another key difference is where they were created to operate. Creeper is extruded from Emitters emplanted on surfaces, and flows as a liquid. It is, therefore, bound by gravity and where surfaces are available for emitters to be attached. It's options are rather limited when it comes to space. On the other hand, the Particulate is designed to work in space. It's emitters are free floating. Particulate travels through space freely.

But this is where we start running into gameplay limitations and unfinished Lore. We know the Loki have devised methods of deploying Emitters through space to distant worlds, but we don't have details. Do they use Rift Space, are they specialized ultra-long range Spores... we don't really know enough about the vehichle(s) involved. There's a blank area between the Lore and game mechanics that we simply don't have information to explain.

The bottom line here, though, is that the Particulate was created to serve the same function as the Creeper, but with the additional function of also "moving the goalpost" for the Creeper, by increasing the information content of the universe, which the Creeper is actively working to decrease.

Ultimately, there came a point where the Seloi simply "gave up", and waited for their inevitable end. They stopped their search for the Arc Eternal. We aren't really given a reason why in CW3, or in PF. It is simply known that they did. Through one of the endings of CW3, it is demonstrated that, unbeknownst to the Seloi, there was a greater plan at work by Platius (aka Skarsgard?), which would suggest that the Seloi were well aware that they did not have the necessary tools to confront the Loki directly. Personally, I would speculate that they realized how threatening the Creeper would become to any surviving Humans if the Loki were forced to evolve it through, around, or to incorporate the Particulate.

So, how does this all relate to how the Creeper and Particulate would fare against each other? Well, that depends on the context -- who is moving in on who, what kind of assets are already in place, and how involved the Loki or the Seloi were.

Left to their own devices, the Particulate would relatively easily, if slowly, overcome and destroy the Creeper. As the Particulate increases in complexity (which it does inherently), it would first out produce the Creeper, then begin forming into more complex objects. It would start with Doppels, then progress to Ship Founderies. Sooner or later, Particulate Ships equipped with Lathes would be built, and sooner or later they would be aggro'd by Creeper emitters and destroy them. During all of this, the only tool at the Creeper's disposal to even approach the Particulate emitters would be Spores, which may or may not be effective on Particulate emitters.

When we consider the Loki, however, the situation changes. It's hard to say how the Creeper would be evolved to deal with the Particulate, but it's safe to say that the prime focus would be to augment Spore Towers to function more like Emitters, allowing the Creeper to function in space more effectively. This would eventually lead to the development of a space borne Creeper emitter. Given enough time, space would become completely filled with Creeper. The universe would eventually become a colossal sea of Creeper. If all Creeper emitters on all Creeper held planets were converted in this fashion, then eventually the Particulate would simply be drowned in a titanic tide of goo.

TL ; DR -- The Particulate would overwhelm the Creeper, but the Loki would out-think the Particulate, and evolve the Creeper accordingly
Last edited by PhailRaptor; Jan 1, 2018 @ 2:01am
Just Kidding May 20, 2019 @ 10:57am 
I initially figured the particle fleet was just an early version of the creeper, before all the races were wiped out, particles=spores, but short version. Inhibitors stop space travel and emit creeper, spores fly, emitters flood, runners disable from range, nests flood runners, exclusion towers prevent aircraft from landing. Overpower and adapt tech to their purpose: conquered the race that had the singularity weapon and the race that made their own anti creeper emitters with shielding. Theoretically there are creeper versions of the Thor and Bertha. Avoiding spoilers, but final level in creeper world, know what I'm sayin.
Just Kidding May 20, 2019 @ 11:00am 
Since someone will prob want to call me a necro, on the hub this is the tenth thing, that's front page, so fair game.
Mischief Maker Apr 14, 2020 @ 2:07pm 
*SPOILERZ*

Lore-wise, particulate already wins over Creeper, because the Seloi nearly isolated the Arc thousands of years before the Loki, but realized they would be causing a causality loop by uncovering it too soon and so surrendered.

In its intended information-gathering function, particulate is way more efficient than creeper.
Fey-Yell Jul 20, 2021 @ 5:38am 
Just a note, In Creeper World three, you are told that there was one civilization that tried diplomacy with Loki. This got the response of "You, of all civilizations, NEED to be destroyed."

In Particle Fleet, the Civilization responsible for the Particulate, was given the same name. Now, I know that some things were repeatedly named, but in this case, I was under the impression that this Civilization only happened once.

Now, as for the battle side. The Particluate, if allowed to run rampant, is probably the thing that would cause the most trouble to the Creeper battle plan of extreme patience, then overwhelming force, given that it could continously evolve. Compare that to humanity cycles: Problem, Search, Solution, Implement, Relax, Forget. And yes, I agree, that the Particulate observable information-gathering function is certainly greater than the Creepers. We only see the Creeper gathering info maybe twice in CW 3.

For landfall, Creeper has certainly shown the most power. Miring does little when you face a veritable wall of anti-mire. I have played on a map, where the mirers outpowered my omnis, only for me to place all my upgraded omnis on that land, and kill off the mirers through concentrated force. Creepers don't have that problem. They are continously able to produce, even covered in anti-creeper. Most Creeper Tech is Land Based, (aside from spores, drones, and rifts)

Now, for space side. Particulate has some advantages, sure. It has shape recognition, and able to copy ships, and even able to build custom ships. Its AI needs work, true, but that is something that can be refined with time. There are a few things that come to mind. One, there are emitters that can change hats, repeatedly. This means, that the Loki, can learn about Particulate at their own leisure. Two, each ship (and Doppel) has a weak spot, as a design feature. Three, If one wasn't bad enough, you can have Particulate Ships and Doppels on your side easily. Which means, that for all its benefits in space, Particulate might be one of the easiest things to be co-opted by the Creeper, for all that it might be the most troublesome to fight.

TLDR: Expect a drawn out battle, until the Loki have a handle on the Particulates, but not without casualties. The Creeper would win, but I could see the Particulates use their adaptive ability to eventually start seeding worlds with Anticreeper sources.
Last edited by Fey-Yell; Jul 20, 2021 @ 5:44am
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