Issues with the game

[Stephen]

Below is a list of issues I have come across with the Battle Of Atlantic campaign.

1. As the Royal Navy, I protect the main shipping lanes only to find the U boats sinking 60,000 tons of shipping in a remote part of the map such as the far South Atlantic. The game gives no indication where the allied shipping is. You would think the allies would know where their own merchant fleet is.
2. Capital ships easily sunk on turn 1 or 2 by U-boats. It makes it almost pointless buying capital ships for the RN at all.
3. Luftwaffe air strikes over the UK. It's as though no RAF fighters exist over Britain to provide air cover and shoot down German bombers.
4. Sometimes air support is provided armed with rockets against a U boat attack. Rockets are useless against submerged U boats.
5. Playing as the Germans, I can easily sink any approaching RN destroyer. I just dive the U boat to shallow depth, wait for the destroyer to come within torpedo range, rise to periscope depth and then sink the destroyer in the same turn.
6. Encounters where U boats shoot, miss and disengage. There are some pointless encounters where nothing happens.
7. U boat encounters dominate over 95% of the campaign. This might be realistic but gets a bit tedious.
8. British submarines encounter nothing. No point using British subs even in the Med.
9. There's little point controlling the merchant ships in battle since they are too slow to avoid a torpedo.
10. I haven't found out whether the British break the German naval code in the game.

[The Inept European]

You make some good points there. Re point 1, you know that if you press the merchant ship icon on the map, it shows where your shipping is active? Stronger blue = more shipping. Point 5 applies to any sub (Allied or Axis) against anything, even another sub. At least the destroyer could try to avoid your torpedo arcs, get behind you, and depth charge you. In theory.
Point 8, I was afraid of that, but I'm still using RN submarines in the hope that one day they will encounter something...
Point 9, you can maneuver them behind smoke, every once in a while you can dodge a torpedo (remember to change speed as well as course, and zigzag). Also, you can use them to distract the enemy and get him to waste shots and maneuvers. But generally, yeah.

[The Inept European]

Originally posted by stephen7272:

Below is a list of issues I have come across with the Battle Of Atlantic campaign.

1. As the Royal Navy, I protect the main shipping lanes only to find the U boats sinking 60,000 tons of shipping in a remote part of the map such as the far South Atlantic. The game gives no indication where the allied shipping is. You would think the allies would know where their own merchant fleet is.

Yeah this is really annoying. However to be fair, there is some information given, but only after the fact:

- the message tells you the name of the sea area where the attack occurred, so you can go and look at it on the map and move forces there in response
- in fact usually there is a red icon (surface or sub) in that sea area after the attack

These attacks did occur historically and were a PITA to the RN because there was such a wide area to respond to. And historically the RN had to react to them, it could not anticipate where the attacks would happen. The good news is that this is perhaps proof (as it was historically) that you are protecting the main convoy routes well enough that the Kriegsmarine needs to hunt elsewhere. It should also be lower tonnage value (though I am not sure if the game reflects this).

I do agree that it seems counterintuitive when the game has a mechanism to show you where the shipping is, with variable intensity colours, that you get attacks of significant tonnage losses in areas where the game is not reporting any activity prior to the attack. I also think the tonnage losses in a single turn (3.5 days) are disproportionately high, eg in the 50,000 ton range. It would be better if the initial losses were a bit lower and gave you more time to react by moving ships back onto station in the South Atlantic or wherever.

[The Inept European]

Originally posted by stephen7272:

2. Capital ships easily sunk on turn 1 or 2 by U-boats. It makes it almost pointless buying capital ships for the RN at all.

I am finding this as well. The capital ships (and heavy cruisers) just seem to be a liability. There is no secure area you can leave them. Even at Scapa Flow (which the RN built precisely as a secure station for the main fleet) they are subjected to repeated sub attacks in increasing severity as the war goes on (completely unhistorical and unrealistic). Even after you end up allocating lots of destroyers to protect them. OK, that is realistic, but with the (very unrealistic) 30 unit limit the shortage of destroyers severely limits your ability to fight the actual BotA. Even then, the battles almost always take the form of sub ambushes where your capital ships and escorts are boxed in very tight, surrounded on 3 sides by enemy subs that are within 1 or 2-turn torpedo range. They fire first of course. And usually precede this with an air attack although sometimes that's a saving grace as the air attack is less effective than a point blank torpedo spread. I have a few times now had to drive destroyers into the path of the torpedo spread in order to save the capital ships.

The logic of this drives me in the direction of having an all-destroyer RN, since only destroyers can survive the U-boat attacks (or are expendable enough to lose a few in the face of U-boat attacks). The capital ships cost so much more renown they are just not worth it. So that pushes me to the stupid and a-historical tactic of doing mob destroyer attacks on surface ships (not seen since the Russo-Japanese war and WWI). But because of the sub threat it's just not worth maintaining capital ships at all. If I was not starting with the pre-set ships I would not buy any capital ships in BotA. Or maybe a small number of very powerful ones (BBs/CVs) to deal with the German surface units on the rare occasions when they venture out.

Concentrating your major combatants in one place to reduce the number of destroyers needed to protect them does not work either, because then the tactical situations generated by the game become highly congested and give a very dense, 'target rich environment' to the attacking subs where they can hardly miss, and the defenders can barely maneuver. The game often spawns poor defensive situations (capital ships on one flank, escorts on the other) as well as extremely favourable offensive situations for the subs. Yes, all of these things did sometimes happen historically, but to make it the typical engagement and have it happen month after month is frustrating and tedious, rather than challenging.

The safest place, by far, for a capital ship is in the repair yard where nothing can touch it. (I have never had the event "ship attacked in dockyard" and frankly even if I did, a little damage would be far preferable to losing the ship entirely to sub attack). It's probably worth ramming your capital ships into each other so you can put them in the dockyard for repairs. Of course then you can't get them out when the German surface fleet does venture out, so that doesn't really solve the problem.

Overall this is very unhistorical and frustrating and detracts a lot from the enjoyment of the game for me.

[baddoggs]

@ stephen, Firstly G'day mate.

Regarding point 2. Capitol ships BB, CV or CA need a
"screen" of DD's to protect them. Each group i include
at least 3. Some CL's should be ASW capable as well.
(with sonar) Without an escort they are a free meal to a SS.

Point 5. U Boat commanders were forbidden to attack warships
ESPECIALLY DD's for most of the Atlantic campaign. So much
for historical accuacy. Most British warships sunk by U-Boats
occured during the first few months of the war.

Point 7. The Germans only had 2 relativley short periods of dominance
during this campaign. The convoy system worked during the early period
later ground based aircraft had more range and became more effective.
Mid to late campaign the british employed "hunter-Killer" groups consisting
of an escort carrier, Cruiser and a bunch of DD's to basically hunt the
"wolfpacks". This was a highly effective tactic that opend up the convoy
paths to Europe from the U.S. So ... Not so "realistic".

Point 8. Uk SS units DID operate in the Med, With some sucsess
but the majority of the British/U.S. SS effort was in the Far East.

Point 9. Yep totally hopeless. Most transports were actually armed,
Mainly a few AA and a couple of old 4 In dual purpose guns staffed by
D.E.M.S personell. So they should have SOME defensive capabilitys
no matter how pathetic. The British also used armed merchant "crusiers"
Actually more than the germans. Mainly during the early stages of the
campaign and primaraly as "heavy Escort" vessels. They were also
used to hunt U-Boats as "Q" Ships.

Hope this helps.

[TigerAce121]

1: It is annoying, but to win the war, you don't necessarily need the south Atlantic to be protected.

My latest Allied playthrough, which I just finished today (Week 2.5 of April 1942) only saw the Royal Navy in the north, protecting the supply lines from America and Canada to England and Russia. In fact, the only times I went south was to destroy the Lutzow and Admiral Graf Spee, and then later to sink the Konigsberg (with only a destroyer).

I was actually taking a detachment of a heavy cruiser and destroyer to track down and sink another warship or task force that was engaging merchant shipping in the area when the game ended.

2: As for your capital ships being sunk: maneuvering is key. The AI fires four torpedoes, spaced out. Before you move, look at the angle of the incoming torpedoes relative to your ship (In submariner terms, this is the 'Angle on Bow'.) Decide whether or not you should turn in to the torpedoes or away from them (As a general rule...if the torpedoes are coming in from the aft portion of the ship, turn away. In they're coming from the bow portion, turn in.) Next, find the space between torpedoes you can best take advantage of and try to fit the ship between there.

With luck, the torpedoes will miss and you can force the sub under and destroy it.

3: This only simulates random patrols. The same thing happens to the Kriegsmarine in their own home waters. The RAF, especially in the early parts of the war, is committed to the Battle of Britain and defense of the homeland. Also, think of it like this:

A destroyer captain radios to Coastal Command that they're being attacked by Stukas in the Western Approaches, off the Rockall Banks. By the time the RAF even gets fighters in the air or redirects some to engage, the Stukas will be long gone. The best that can be done is that the fighters give your convoy air cover until you reach port.

4: Rockets, despite common belief, are extremely effective against U-boats at periscope depth. Like AP shells, rockets have the velocity to penetrate the surface and go for another few feet, thus hitting the U-boat. Many U-boats I sank were from rockets fire from Swordfish or Liberators.

They're a little difficult to aim, however, but take some time in custom battles. A single, well-placed salvo is usually enough to sink even an undamaged U-boat.

5: Are you complaining? Better they sink than you.

This is also somewhat realistic. A brazen U-boat captain could, if he stayed at periscope depth (which rarely ever happened), fire a torpedo down the throat of an approaching destroyer. While an impact detonator would bounce off the hull and do nothing, a magnetic detonator, set to explode under the destroyer, would almost always break the ship's back and sink her.

6: A U-boat will stick around as long as it can. It only disengages when it takes damage and escorts are far enough away, when sonar is disrupted by a poor depth charge attack, or when targets are too far away.

In order to prevent a submarine from disengaging, keep destroyers hounding it until it is sunk or it manages to disengage after a DC attack. In addition, when engaging a sub at periscope depth with your main battery, don't do it from too far away...if the sub is damaged enough and is far enough away, it will disengage.

7: Well, can't refute that. However, if you'd like, turn on the 'recycle sunken ships' option in the settings...except the Bismarck and Tiripitz won't stay dead like they should.

8: Almost 100% true. However, I owe it to HMS Thermopylae for contacting the Bismarck off the British home islands and sinking her, and to HMS Thrasher for finding the Tiripitz after it had broken out into the Atlantic and was wreaking havoc on shipping; because of that, I managed to surround the area and sink her as well. British subs also let you keep eyes on the areas where it is too dangerous for surface ships to go due to Axis air cover.

9: Hard to do, but not impossible. However, you can pretty much guarantee that your tankers and Liberty ships, both very slow and hard to maneuver (The T2 Tanker displaces more than some heavy cruisers!) , are always going to be hit...Liberty freighters aren't built to survive, but occasionally a tanker will make it.

10: There is no naval code in the game. It is not modeled.

[The Inept European]

Originally posted by baddoggs:

Regarding point 2. Capitol ships BB, CV or CA need a
"screen" of DD's to protect them. Each group i include
at least 3. Some CL's should be ASW capable as well.
(with sonar) Without an escort they are a free meal to a SS.

Yes I think most of us know capital ships need to escorted by destroyers. The problem is, providing a destroyer escort makes little difference. Yes, it is a great help (essential), provided your capital ships survive the initial attack. But the destroyers are no help in that. In fact they may even hinder it because the more ships you have in a scenario, the more tightly packed they are on turn 1. In turns 1 and 2, destroyers can help only in one of two unrealistic ways. 1, by diving in front of the torp spread and deliberately sacrificing themselves. 2. if they can manage to kill all the subs with torpedoes so that the scenario ends before the 'torpedoes in the water' hit the capital ships.

Originally posted by baddoggs:

Point 5. U Boat commanders were forbidden to attack warships
ESPECIALLY DD's for most of the Atlantic campaign. So much
for historical accuacy. Most British warships sunk by U-Boats
occured during the first few months of the war.

I don't think that's true. There is Black May when the U-boats disengaged entirely. Before that they were sinking warships, particularly destroyers. Then after Black May the U-boats returned to the Atlantic precisely because they had new weapons and tactics (eg GNAT acoustic homing torpedo) that would allow them to attack escort warships first, sink them, then sink the convoys at leisure. What's your source for that view? Destroyers were being sunk by U-boats all through the war, apart from when the U-boats were generally withdrawn.

[The Inept European]

Originally posted by TigerAce121:

2: As for your capital ships being sunk: maneuvering is key. The AI fires four torpedoes, spaced out. Before you move, look at the angle of the incoming torpedoes relative to your ship (In submariner terms, this is the 'Angle on Bow'.) Decide whether or not you should turn in to the torpedoes or away from them (As a general rule...if the torpedoes are coming in from the aft portion of the ship, turn away. In they're coming from the bow portion, turn in.) Next, find the space between torpedoes you can best take advantage of and try to fit the ship between there.

With luck, the torpedoes will miss and you can force the sub under and destroy it.

This is really good advice. Do you mind if I add it to my Guide on ASW? Obviously with credits to you.

[TigerAce121]

Originally posted by spike.robinson:

This is really good advice. Do you mind if I add it to my Guide on ASW? Obviously with credits to you.

I've no problems with it...I can't make any guides due to me owning the game through mobile port, not Steam.

[baddoggs]

In Reality, It was not so easy for subs to sink a DD. Asdic has a range of around 1.2 Km,
This leaves plenty of time for evasive action. They are a shallow draught so contacts don't really work. IJN had the only reliable torps, German ones were not as reliable as history would suggest. Magnetic or proxy torps were not perfected until the late war period, by then
the Battle for the atlantic was pretty much won. I sight my source as KM After action reports.
Hundreds of them by written by U-Boat skippers AT THE TIME. Not some book written by someone who read a book written by someone who read a book etc...
If you want to actually KILL a sub in this game, dont shoot guns at the contact, the sub will
try to break contact right away and it becomes much harder.
In the settings you have the option to "spread out" over the map more. Makes a longer battle
but solves the "grouped up too close" Issues.
Tiger Ace is correct, you need to turn INTO the track of the torps and pass through them
when in a DD hunting a sub. Even in a capitol ship, better to take a torp in the bow than the
stern. Damage to engines or rudder will ensure your demise.
A DD of that period could hear immediately when a sub fired torps using hydrophhones.
This Also gave an accurate bearing for the sub.

[TigerAce121]

The TI G7a torpedoes had good working magnetic and contact detonators. However, their use as discouraged due to the fact that they were oxygen-powered...which means they left an easily detectable bubble trail.

It was the TII G7e that had the magnetic pistol issues...oftentimes, the torpedo would simply run right under the ship. Other issues included problems with the depth-keeper, which would make the torpedo run deeper or shallower than it was set for. These issues were reported during the Norway Campaign, where U-boats had multiple opportunities to sink both transports and capital ships (Two times, the HMS Resolution was attacked by U-boats with failed TII torpedoes.) After that, the TII was mostly withdrawn and orders were given to only use the contact detonators.

In early 1942, these issues were resolved, mostly, but problems remained. With the introduction of the TIII G7e, however, the issues of the TII were resolved as well as eliminating the bubble trail of the G7a series.

[The Inept European]

Originally posted by baddoggs:

In Reality, It was not so easy for subs to sink a DD.

Yes totally agree. In this game it is super easy for a sub to sink a destroyer. In reality subs had to be extremely wary of destroyers, almost always retreating if attacked. Only very brave, lucky or desperate sub commanders engaged destroyers deliberately. Yes the ASW sonar is too effective in this game. The ASW torps are also way overpowered. But, that only partly compensates for the sub torpedoes being way too good. It really needs an option (or mod) to slow the torp speeds down to historical speeds. And then an option or mod so that you lose sonar contact at depth charge ranges. That would be amazing.

As it stands, the sub vs destroyer fights are still some of the most exciting parts of this game. With a few more tweaks they could be even better!

[The Inept European]

Originally posted by TigerAce121:

The TI G7a torpedoes[etc]

Very interesting!

It would be great if these historical technical elements were in the game. Slightly like Pacific Fleet. Like we have availability of different ship types, and ASW weapons, it would be very cool to have these changes in torpedo effectiveness, new torpedo types or upgrades coming out. Also on the Allied side to have HF/DF and centrimetric radar come out at certain times, since these were also key developments that changed the tactics.

[The Inept European]

Originally posted by baddoggs:

I
A DD of that period could hear immediately when a sub fired torps using hydrophhones.

Yes, and so it's entirely fair that in this game we get the "U-27: Torpedo" pop up message when torp(s) are fired.

Originally posted by baddoggs:

I
This Also gave an accurate bearing for the sub.

Reasonably accurate. Enough to position it, but not to fire on it.

[The Inept European]

Originally posted by TigerAce121:

Originally posted by spike.robinson:

This is really good advice. Do you mind if I add it to my Guide on ASW? Obviously with credits to you.

I've no problems with it...I can't make any guides due to me owning the game through mobile port, not Steam.

Thanks - added!
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=894214300

[TigerAce121]

Originally posted by spike.robinson:

Originally posted by TigerAce121:

The TI G7a torpedoes[etc]

Very interesting!

It would be great if these historical technical elements were in the game. Slightly like Pacific Fleet. Like we have availability of different ship types, and ASW weapons, it would be very cool to have these changes in torpedo effectiveness, new torpedo types or upgrades coming out. Also on the Allied side to have HF/DF and centrimetric radar come out at certain times, since these were also key developments that changed the tactics.

If you want this, I'd recommend Silent Hunter III, combined with the GWX mod. It truly is an outstanding game, and the mob community for GWX worked for some 3 or 4 years...a lot of them are over on Subsim if you want to talk to them.

Originally posted by baddoggs:

I
A DD of that period could hear immediately when a sub fired torps using hydrophhones.

An experienced hydrophone operator could hear many things...they could pick up the sound of a submarine's torpedo doors opening, the sound of the launch itself, and even the sound of an electric torpedo's motor as it ran (very hard to do).

Very well-trained and experienced operators could even distinguish the creaking of a submarine's hull at depth from the similar sound of a pod of whales communicating.