How is this functionality possible with a controller?

[Dragon]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WImdnD5m0lU&index=6&t=0s&list=PLX3_78kyHZrkr9OMbgR-nlHlWn1EJqJAk

At 2:10 of the video, the player issues a command for Yuki to run into the bush. Then he issues a second command for Mugen to run behind the fence.

While he is issuing the second command, Yuki automatically continues performing the first one.

However, I have not been able to replicate this functionality while using a controller, because:

a) it does not give me a cursor with which I can select a destination to click upon, like the mouse player who made the video has in his game.

b) due to a) I cannot switch to Mugen without simultaneously stopping Yuki from proceeding to her intended destination (even though I can't afford to have her stop, because that would ruin my Speedrun).

Consequently, unless I am missing something, then controller users are at a huge disadvantage, because they do not have the ability to issue simultaneous commands that mouse users do. This creates huge problems for things like Speedruns.

Likewise, a similar, second example is seen at 3:10 of the same video. The player has Mugen dispose of a body, then dispatch other guards, at the same time as he has also commanded Yuki to run all the way across the map to him, without him having to directly control Yuki during her whole way to him. How, exactly, can that be replicated with a controller?

[coru]

you can use shadow mode to issue walking commands aswell

[Leif Hagelsmak]

Originally posted by Dragon:

Consequently, unless I am missing something, then controller users are at a huge disadvantage, because they do not have the ability to issue simultaneous commands that mouse users do. This creates huge problems for things like Speedruns.

As far as I know, yes, playing with a controller has a huge disadvantage, it gets really obvious when you see speedruns done with mouse/keyboard. I bet it's the reason that of all the speedrun videos I have found only one have been with a controller.

Shadow Mode does not make up for the differences at all, anyone who claims that have not properly looked into the real advantage of the expanded functions and mechanics mouse/keyboard actually gives the player, it's like a whole world of extra possiblities.

IMO the speedrun badges turns this game into a tourture. I ended up feeling that I was playing "Super Tactics: The Blade of the MeatBoy" rather than "Shadow Tactics: Blade of the Shogun" and had to quit the my final achivement hunt or I would eventually rage quit and strangle my neighbour's dog.

I guess the only upside is that if you do complete all the badges you will end up with a rare achivement, I really doubt that there are many who have completed it.


....with that said, it's one of the best games I have ever played, I just wish I had known it when I started playing the game, then I would have skipped the controller.

[Dragon]

Originally posted by coru:

you can use shadow mode to issue walking commands aswell

Yes, but to do that would require the player to expend a lot more time than the player in the video in the OP had to expend in order to perform his Speedrun without ever using shadow mode. And that extra expenditure of time is multiplied by each instance of when shadow mode has to be used.

Like the examples I've noted in the OP, where the mouse & keyboard player implements such commands twice in about a minute, without entering shadow mode either time. If I were to enter shadow mode twice in order to perform a variation of the same operations as he did, then I would inevitably have to waste vastly more time than he did.

Thus, there is a great disparity between keyboard & mouse players, and controller players, with controller players at the huge disadvantage.

This is like a reverse situation of the Dark Souls PC ports, in which keyboard & mouse players have less commands available to them and a much harder time controlling their characters than controller users have.

Also, Leif Hagelsmak has corroborated my point with his excellent post above this one.

These problems are especially noteworthy since the game is designed to encourage Speedruns by rewarding players who complete them with Badges and Achievements. Alternatively, had Speedrun-related Badges and Achievements not been put into the game, then shadow mode would be a viable alternative to solve the problems I've pointed out, because the extra time it takes to use shadow mode would not be a big deal if time was not a relevant factor.

Devs, it would be great if you could please address these problems by patching the game so that controller users have 100% of the same functionality as keyboard & mouse users have. The player in the examples I've cited in the OP did not have to enter shadow mode in order to do his business, because he has access to a cursor function, that controller users do not have access to.

[coru]

I'm sorry, but this is impossible. They are different input devices, so it is not possible to create the same experience for both. Sure, we could give you a cursor on gamepad. But then the controls would suck and you would probably STILL be slower than a PC user, because you ahve to use a stick to mvoe the cursor.

This is true for many other games and genres out there aswell. People playing a shooter with a gamepad will have a different experience than those on PC. Not worse, but different. They can do different things and will probably reach other problems etc. They will probably not be able to compete with people playing with mouse and keyboard, but why should they?

The same is true here. The game is not designed around speedruns. Speedruns are an OPTIONAL content that is something that people who enjoy this kind of challenge can do.
All the speedruns are doable with gamepad, we tested that a lot internally aswell.

If you only get enjoyment from this game if you have the best speedrun times, then you should use the input that is best suited for getting the best speedrun times, which is mouse and keyboard.

If playing with a gamepad is more fun for you personally, then you will have to accept, that there will be people using different input with lower speedrun times. Because thats the only possible reality there is, without crippling the game and its controls for all players.

Maybe you can try to aim for the best speedrun times WITH a gamepad and i think you should comapre your times to other gamepad users, not M/K users if you are into this sort of competitive challenge :)

[Duke de plata]

Have you tired a Steam Controller? Its terrible for FPS games but you could set all kind of shortcuts with it for this game.

[Leif Hagelsmak]

Originally posted by coru:

The same is true here. The game is not designed around speedruns. Speedruns are an OPTIONAL content that is something that people who enjoy this kind of challenge can do.
All the speedruns are doable with gamepad, we tested that a lot internally aswell.

For me personally, I don't see it as optional when it's a must for 100% achivements on steam, but yes that's me I guess. At least it's not as horrible as achivements which demands local co-op for games that are at it's core a single player game with local or online co-op as an added feature.

Originally posted by coru:

If you only get enjoyment from this game if you have the best speedrun times, then you should use the input that is best suited for getting the best speedrun times, which is mouse and keyboard.

Again I can only answer for myself, but I enjoyed everything about the game so much that I consider this game to be in my must play before you die list, and that list is quite short even though it's been going on for almost 40 years.

I certainly do not need to have the best speedrun times, I don't need speedrun at all. If I want it I choose a game that was designed for the purpose like Super Meat Boy or N++ since they all have short levels which means you can remember and update your mistakes in a tempo/time frame which makes it easy to engage in and makes more sense from a game play mechanics point of view.

Super Meat Boy would hardly being a success if it had levels that for an average skilled player would take 10-20 minutes. This is, even if exaggerated to my point, how I ended up feeling after just doing the speedrun of the 3 first levels.

After that I realized that the time it would most likely take me to do all the speedrun badges would be 1-2 times more hours than it took me to finnish the game and get all the other steam achivements done.

When you play with a controller the actual time you could make it is higher than with mouse/keyboard due to the reason already mentioned. This means that the amount of misstakes you can do in a speedrun with a controller is less.

It's like running 100 meters on foot with decent shoes versus running on your bare knees. Sure one can set a time limit which makes it doable doing both, but obviously you would have a much easier time recovering from tripping and falling when running on foot versus on your knees and so on.

The time is the issue here, as an example, level 3 has the speedrun time under 15 minutes, EACH time you fail it's another 15 minutes wasted to put it blunt, not only that you shall as well remember all steps and figure out which ones you can or can not cut time on....and thats if you don't make any mistakes.

My knowledge of speedrun games is limited but as far as I tell they well known have not very long levels. It's a question of balanced game mechanics if I would make a guess.

Originally posted by coru:

If playing with a gamepad is more fun for you personally, then you will have to accept, that there will be people using different input with lower speedrun times. Because thats the only possible reality there is, without crippling the game and its controls for all players.

For what it's worth, that has nothing to do with my issue.

Originally posted by coru:

Maybe you can try to aim for the best speedrun times WITH a gamepad and i think you should comapre your times to other gamepad users, not M/K users if you are into this sort of competitive challenge :)

Again, I answer only for me. I have no desire to aim for the best speedrun times. I was truly enjoying the game and when I finished it I was looking forward to make it a perfect game on steam. I however got disappointed when I realized that making the speedrun would take me as much time or possibly even more than to do the res of the steam achievements.

Just as bad joke, If I spend more time finishing the speedrun badges than the rest of the game, did I really buy a hardcore tactical stealth game ?

Originally posted by coru:

you should comapre your times to other gamepad users, not M/K users if you are into this sort of competitive challenge :)

A repeat quote, I would really appreciate any links to videos of people doing speedrun with controller, so far I have only found one, and I think that was level 1. All the rest has been with M/K and they have turned out to be of very little help.



Let me just end with saying that it is one of my all time favorite game and that's the reason I have such a desire to make it a perfect game. But when it comes to the speedrun badges I feel the balance is way off, and if I really want to have a found memory of this game I really have to be careful how I choose to approach these speedrun.