Japan vs. China - there is a difference

[Burmecian Rat]

I'm excited by the concept of this game in many ways, but I'm a bit put off by some of the things I've seen in screenshots and trailers. Namely, the enemies are wearing what looks more like Chinese/Korean dress and armor and a lot of the architecture (i.e. rooflines) and colours (too much Jade) and items on the roads (large ox carts) are not typically Japanese, but actually more from other Asian cultures or possibly made up altogether.

I know it's sort of like complaining about the Commando series not being a historically accurate representation of WW2, but I find it really kind of breaks my immersion and lessens my enjoyment of what could be an absolutely beautiful game otherwise.

I'm no expert on Edo period Japan but I know enough to see that a lot of things don't look quite right. I wonder if this is another case of white Europeans trying to illustrate a foreign culture they don't really know that much about? People have been getting Japan and China mixed up in their "ninja" media for decades now and it's kind of annoying that it's still happening. I couldn't care less about cultural appropriation, I just want to see them depict one of my favourite historical eras accurately if they're going to it at all. Otherwise, it might as well be set in generic fantasy kingdom XYZ.

P.S. To be fair, the Japanese butcher their own history pretty frequently as well (e.g. character designs in the Samurai Warriors or Sengoku Basara series or Giant Enemy Crabs in Genji).

[hyninja]

Originally posted by Burmecian Rat:

Namely, the enemies are wearing what looks more like Chinese/Korean dress and armor and a lot of the architecture (i.e. rooflines) and colours (too much Jade) and items on the roads (large ox carts) are not typically Japanese

Nope. The form of solider's wearing&hat is from the japanese Edo period, the ancient Chinese solider won't wearing like that, especially Mugen(samurai)'s wearing, and so is the architectural appearance. (You can google it in Edo period).Cause Japanese culture (include Korean culture) is heavily influenced by Chinese one, but there are some difference between them, like ninja is a unique armed branch in Japan that China never had it.

It seems like you confused with Asian culture, cause I'm a Chinese :)

[coru]

Originally posted by Burmecian Rat:

I'm excited by the concept of this game in many ways, but I'm a bit put off by some of the things I've seen in screenshots and trailers. Namely, the enemies are wearing what looks more like Chinese/Korean dress and armor and a lot of the architecture (i.e. rooflines) and colours (too much Jade) and items on the roads (large ox carts) are not typically Japanese, but actually more from other Asian cultures or possibly made up altogether.

I know it's sort of like complaining about the Commando series not being a historically accurate representation of WW2, but I find it really kind of breaks my immersion and lessens my enjoyment of what could be an absolutely beautiful game otherwise.

I'm no expert on Edo period Japan but I know enough to see that a lot of things don't look quite right. I wonder if this is another case of white Europeans trying to illustrate a foreign culture they don't really know that much about? People have been getting Japan and China mixed up in their "ninja" media for decades now and it's kind of annoying that it's still happening. I couldn't care less about cultural appropriation, I just want to see them depict one of my favourite historical eras accurately if they're going to it at all. Otherwise, it might as well be set in generic fantasy kingdom XYZ.

P.S. To be fair, the Japanese butcher their own history pretty frequently as well (e.g. character designs in the Samurai Warriors or Sengoku Basara series or Giant Enemy Crabs in Genji).

Ok, so this is a very difficult topic. I can only say that we researched a lot and stayed as true as possbile to what we found out. We had a japenese expert who studies japanese culture visit our studio multiple times to go over designs, concepts and levels.
We showed the game at Tokyo Game Show and people there really loved it, so it can't be too far off!
Still of course there might be some things that are not quite right.
Some of them come from conscious decisisons that needed to be made to make the game better. There are certain technical things regarding the readability of a screen, how you see characters etc. that sometimes force you to maybe do things a little different.
And of course we might have overseen some stuff :)
I don't think we have gotten China and Japan mixed up. We deliberatly only looked at japanese picture, history books etc. and not at chinese ones. We took care there and really tried to be as correct as possible.
I talked to a japanese game developer once and he told me that the only thing he feels look a little chinese are the colors. So it's stuff like that, which might make an asset that is actually acurate for the time of the Edo Period seem a little Chinese to you.
As i said, its a very complicated topic, though.
We tried and invested a lot of time in that. But still it might be off in some areas. It's just a hard thing to do ;)

[Archbishop Desmond Calorie]

Are you sure that its not fictional and overstylized designs clashing in your head, rather than actual historical ones?

Because I can tell you right now, there's nothing Korean in the design. Before you accuse devs of not getting something right, you should make sure that you get it right first. ;)
Nothing more cringy than random weebs complaining that something doesnt look like their animes. Worse when they draw my country into it...

[nightelfweiwei]

As a pure Chinese I can tell u this is definite not Chinese style :D

[Pentraksil]

Originally posted by Burmecian Rat:

I'm no expert on Edo period Japan but I know enough to see that a lot of things don't look quite right.

Well, thats why you are not the expert :D. This is not even close to Chinese style...I am a huge history buff...But you don't have to be since a simple google trip can tell you that this looks very Japanese, very Edo period (with some artistic freedoms here and there, which is normal for a game)

[Burmecian Rat]

Originally posted by Calorie Mate 🎄:

Are you sure that its not fictional and overstylized designs clashing in your head, rather than actual historical ones?

Because I can tell you right now, there's nothing Korean in the design. Before you accuse devs of not getting something right, you should make sure that you get it right first. ;)
Nothing more cringy than random weebs complaining that something doesnt look like their animes. Worse when they draw my country into it...

I'm not a "random weeb". I'm a longtime student of Japanese history and certainly know more about the history and architecture of Japan (and Korea...) than the average user here on this forum but I'll just leave it at that.

The developer has addressed my concerns well with an answer that was both realistic/humble about possible shortcomings while also revealing that they did have a consultant and are confident in the fact they getting the important things right. I'm very much impressed by the developer's answer.

But, I will leave one final challenge to any who dares to accept it: find me any real life (Edo period or otherwie) Japanese castle that looks like the one at the start of their launch trailer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qtJ3dZyoS94

Good luck (you'll certainly need it - that thing is way more Chinese/Korean Fantasy than Japanese...)

[GamerWolfOps]

This is a game i will actually enjoy and buy. The art style is very nice.

[Jester]

Originally posted by hyninja:

Originally posted by Burmecian Rat:

Namely, the enemies are wearing what looks more like Chinese/Korean dress and armor and a lot of the architecture (i.e. rooflines) and colours (too much Jade) and items on the roads (large ox carts) are not typically Japanese

Nope. The form of solider's wearing&hat is from the japanese Edo period, the ancient Chinese solider won't wearing like that, especially Mugen(samurai)'s wearing, and so is the architectural appearance. (You can google it in Edo period).Cause Japanese culture (include Korean culture) is heavily influenced by Chinese one, but there are some difference between them, like ninja is a unique armed branch in Japan that China never had it.

It seems like you confused with Asian culture, cause I'm a Chinese :)

/sarcasm on

how dare you correct him! He's whitesplaining what your culture should look like, you will do well to shut up and listen to the wise white man, with little actual knowledge but great capacity for generalization based on that little knowledge.

/sarcasm off

[d^]

Originally posted by Burmecian Rat:

But, I will leave one final challenge to any who dares to accept it: find me any real life (Edo period or otherwie) Japanese castle that looks like the one at the start of their launch trailer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qtJ3dZyoS94

Good luck (you'll certainly need it - that thing is way more Chinese/Korean Fantasy than Japanese...)

The thing is, you are assuming that is a castle in the trailer.

[mopple]

It is Osaka Castle. And I think it doesn't look totally different from the original.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osaka_Castle#/media/File:Osaka_Castle_rampart_in_1865.jpg

[Ash]

As a Chinese who grew up under the influence of Japanese culture. I do feel the art doesn't capture Japanese designs and overlooked many subtle differences between Asian cultures. If one didn't get these right, it'll look very obvious and awkward to an Asian, to me at least. It doesn't diminish the enjoyment of the game. It just... feel strange.

For example, simple thing like the height of the roofs in the first shot of the video above, I personally haven't seen tall and pointy roofs like that in historic Japanese buildings, the overall proportion is off, because you see, Japanese are very articulated with how stuff are built, every line, every angle will have to be perfect and in alignment with one another. Even the choice of color seems off and it frankly, looks more Chinese to me.

The way how the scales on the armor binds together feels off too. Japanese people to this date, would not trade the time it takes to make something looks neat and very presentable. Thus the irregular angles of the scales and the seemingly random 'stitches' to me, is not very Japanese in nature. Also, is that copper and metal? I might be mistaken, but I haven't really seem much metal being use in Edo period armors.

Character's faces also have features that are more Chinese in nature, the beard style of the samurai guy for example. The exaggerated cheekbones on the foot soldiers, the eyes of ...etc.

I can go on and on about this. But the bottom line is, I agree with OP, this game don't look like Japan to me. But I think it is more the matter of an artistic choice than being precise on everything.

Lastly, this is the most important thing I cannot get over with: A Samurai will never ambush and kill people in the back that's their way of living, being honorable. Being stealthy and assassinations are what Ninjas do.

[mopple]

Originally posted by Ash:

Lastly, this is the most important thing I cannot get over with: A Samurai will never ambush and kill people in the back that's their way of living, being honorable. Being stealthy and assassinations are what Ninjas do.

True. But to be fair, it is obvious in the game that the devs were well aware of that. When Hayato and Mugen meet, Hayato only accepts to continue as a team if things are done his way.
Later (I think end of 3rd mission) Yuki sais "you are not a normal Samurai, are you?" and Mugens reacion hints that he knows he shouldn't be doing what he is doing - as a Samurai.

Yes the player does not really see Mugen fighting much with his inner conscience. And Mugen is still referred to as a Samurai - what he isn't anymore.

But it is still a game. It's like Battlefield 1: Lots of World War I stuff in it, but also machine guns, supernatural horses etc.

[General Plastro]

Originally posted by mopple-the-whale:

Originally posted by Ash:

Lastly, this is the most important thing I cannot get over with: A Samurai will never ambush and kill people in the back that's their way of living, being honorable. Being stealthy and assassinations are what Ninjas do.

True. But to be fair, it is obvious in the game that the devs were well aware of that. When Hayato and Mugen meet, Hayato only accepts to continue as a team if things are done his way.
Later (I think end of 3rd mission) Yuki sais "you are not a normal Samurai, are you?" and Mugens reacion hints that he knows he shouldn't be doing what he is doing - as a Samurai.

Yes the player does not really see Mugen fighting much with his inner conscience. And Mugen is still referred to as a Samurai - what he isn't anymore.

But it is still a game. It's like Battlefield 1: Lots of World War I stuff in it, but also machine guns, supernatural horses etc.

Samurai were just normal people, in japanese history you had samurai killing civilians in cold blood, killing their lords in intricate backstabs just for their bid at power, etc.

Ambushing people is far from being a great offense, the real life samurai did far more violent transgressions of their code than that (IE: genocide).

Pretty much like the supposed "paladins of christianity" did back in the west, there is a stronger myth surronding the samurai than the western medieval knight/paladin, but MANY (and i dare say the vast majority) of the samurai did not truly lived by what Bushido dictated.

While the ideal existed back then, it was just that... an ideal, the general common folk belived that they were icons of honor, justice, etc. But thats far from the truth.

[Paul]

Well since you all look the same anyway i can maybe understand your crying over whos panties are most colorful.Also if you dont own the game you should not be permited to post and cry here.

[Pentraksil]

THe problem about most of these "cool" concepts like samurai, pirates, Spartans etc. are looked through this very romanticised prism. Samurai should respect honor, but there were a lot of them that did not care, killed innocent people, did everything just for glory or wealth etc. When it comes to war or matters of life and death....honor goes right through the window in most cases.