In future games like this, they really need to avoid Chapter 5 logic(spoilers)

[BG88HE_FD_PA]

Seriously, the "last person to touch a weapon that kills someone" rule is beyond stupid and doesn't make any sense.

As most people already know and point out, it particularly makes no sense in conjunction with the logic used in the previous case where Gundham is held responsible for Nekomaru's death, even though technically what killed Nekomaru was his own fidgeting resulting in him falling to his death and Gundham putting him there wasn't actual murder.

I was really disappointed with this conclusion in the chapter, because using this kind of logic allows for all sorts of stupid murders to be ruled suicides or it makes it incredibly easy to trick people into killing others without their knowledge.

For example, if a person poisoned some food or drinks and another person ingested it, wouldn't this be suicide under Monokuma's interpretation since even though the person didn't know it was poisoned, they were the last person to touch the poisoned object? Is any act of poisoning ultimately not the poisoner's fault since he is unlikely to touch the poisoned object last?

Another example would be booby traps where the person triggering a booby trap would be considered the murderer instead of the person rigging the booby trap itself since the trigger person touched the trap last.

I know that's kinda long winded, I just really hope they never decide to use this garbage again, because it's rather silly and undermines the entire setup they use.

[MegaMan]

The school regulations are intentionally left vague, both for loophole purposes (exploited quite a bit in DR1) and trial purposes here. Really, Monokuma is more than happy to twist and enforce rules as needed as long as it makes things more entertaining. He listened to Peko make her case for not being a person in one chapter, and he ignored Nagito's bombing destroying one of the monitors in the hotel restaurant which is a direct violation of another rule. Just because a student violates a regulation does not mean Monokuma is obligated to enforce it.

You're trying to apply rigid guidelines to the regulations, which does not work. "Anyone who kills a fellow student" can apply directly, indirectly, or even whether or not the culprit was aware they did it. It's incredibly easy for Monokuma to pin Gundham as the murderer because his actions put Nekomaru in a situation where he was dead whether or not he woke up. Chiaki was the blackened because the poison she threw is ultimately Nagito's cause of death.

[Pikaman20008]

BattleDonut a écrit :

Guys, they were so nice to make a spoilers forum, stuff like this should be posted there... xD

Yep. I don't know why, but this keeps happening. :(

[BG88HE_FD_PA]

General discussion
Story Discussion (SPOILERS)

This topic is a general topic about the logic used in the game, not really the storyline. The other forum isn't a spoilers forum, it's a story forum that they've marked to automatically include spoilers.

[Pikaman20008]

RedBeard a écrit :

General discussion
Story Discussion (SPOILERS)

This topic is a general topic about the logic used in the game, not really the storyline. The other forum isn't a spoilers forum, it's a story forum that they've marked to automatically include spoilers.

No, wrong, it IS a spoilers forum, because you talk about later parts in the STORY which include SPOILERS! It is a forum made for topics that involve later game details so that people can talk about them and people who haven't finished the game don't have to worry about sopilers, that's why they MADE IT. But the problem is that people just keep posting these topics riddled with spoilers in the general disscussion forum, where anyone can see them. I do appreciate that most people put a spoiler warning in the post title, but really, more people should use the forum for spoilers like this. And also, even if this post is talking about the logic in the game, it makes reference to chapter 5 and later parts in the STORY. Which is why it should go in the STORY DISSCUSSION forum. Again, the main forum is just for anyone to talk about anything so long as people don't spoil the game so that newcomers can participate in the disscussion.

[vulmen.matrias]

I saw a reddit post earlier where someone fleshed out every rule/regulation from DR1 and DR2 and showed comparisons how under the logic Monokuma provided, it could go either way. (Nagito/Chiaki) I would totally have preferred slapping around Monokuma's earlier words about masterminds and who-planned-whats and such, but if he had targeted the AIs that would attempt to influence the Despairs into the right choice during the final trial...what do you think would happen? Junko already knew that Makoto/etc were out there and coming (that was her plan all along), so had to keep a handle on things.

Hence why Usami got the axe just by existing.

The ultimate point is that Monokuma will choose whatever is the most convenient rule for him/herself at the time, bending it as necessary.

Is it BS? Yes. I hated that stupid trial so hard. The fact they even had multiple "escape" attempts from the incoming execution was just a slap in the face. With the first escape they attempted, I already knew it was pointless. Monokuma had decided, it was going to happen. :(

[happydeathman]

STILL, you'd think that the characters would at least have made an effort to argue that Nagito's death was suicide, instead of just instantly giving up and deciding OH NO CHIAKI IS THE BLACKENED.

[MegaMan]

happydeathman a écrit :

STILL, you'd think that the characters would at least have made an effort to argue that Nagito's death was suicide, instead of just instantly giving up and deciding OH NO CHIAKI IS THE BLACKENED.

...just like how they did at the beginning of the case, which played right into Nagito's hands?

[Pikaman20008]

MegaMan a écrit :

happydeathman a écrit :

STILL, you'd think that the characters would at least have made an effort to argue that Nagito's death was suicide, instead of just instantly giving up and deciding OH NO CHIAKI IS THE BLACKENED.

...just like how they did at the beginning of the case, which played right into Nagito's hands?

Yeah. And again, I don't see how it counts as suicide if it's at the hands of another person. I mean, yeah, in the real world, that would technically be suicide by cop. But Monokuma has explicitly made it clear and has said, and I quote, "If you kill someone, that's murder." In the terms of the game Monokuma is hosting, if one student is responsible for the death of another student in any way, that is considered a murder in his eyes and makes them the blackened.

[happydeathman]

...just like how they did at the beginning of the case, which played right into Nagito's hands?

Well? Monokuma's gonna do what Monokuma's gonna do, but what exactly would be WRONG with saying "no, ♥♥♥♥ it, this is ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥," even if you can't win? AND HELL, maybe you can. You never know with that guy. I get the rationale behind it, but as has been pointed out on this thread, it's never been consistent.

[vulmen.matrias]

I...yeah. Exactly that. Nothing wrong with that...I know I was shouting that at the screen, multiple times.

We already did have a HUGE reaction from everyone, they were deeply maimed by it. But they mostly struggled with guilt for having to vote Chiaki; they never attempted to counter it "NO, that's wrong!" There's a term for this... Sheeple. (I jest...kind of) Every decision was just following Nagito's rabbit trail.

During it, I did wish they had bucked at the logic used there. Even so, the removal of her+Usami was too convenient for Monokuma. I doubt it would have changed the end result. "...I think."

[Pikaman20008]

vulmen.matrias a écrit :

I...yeah. Exactly that. Nothing wrong with that...I know I was shouting that at the screen, multiple times.

We already did have a HUGE reaction from everyone, they were deeply maimed by it. But they mostly struggled with guilt for having to vote Chiaki; they never attempted to counter it "NO, that's wrong!" There's a term for this... Sheeple. (I jest...kind of) Every decision was just following Nagito's rabbit trail.

During it, I did wish they had bucked at the logic used there. Even so, the removal of her+Usami was too convenient for Monokuma. I doubt it would have changed the end result. "...I think."

Again, I don't see what the problem is here. Chiaki threw the poison that killed Nagito. According to Monokuma, that makes her the killer. Where is the faulty logic behind that?

[BG88HE_FD_PA]

Again, I don't see what the problem is here. Chiaki threw the poison that killed Nagito. According to Monokuma, that makes her the killer. Where is the faulty logic behind that?

Because in just the previous case, if we use Monokuma's logic, Nekomaru killed himself and Gundham isn't the blackened. Gundham uses the cord to tie Nekomaru up, but it's Nekomaru moving around/panicking that causes him to fall.

Like I said at the start, if we allow such logic to be used in the game where all that matters is a last touch instead of a mastermind, then there's no point in even having a murder mystery because anyone using poison or traps is automatically not blackened by this logic. The person ingesting the poison, triggering a trap, or unknowningly giving poison to someone else becomes completely safe.

For example, if Nagito had poisoned the entire island's food and potable water, using the same logic in case 5, anyone who eats/drinks poisoned food or drink comitted suicide because they touched the poisoned object last. So anyone on the island could win by just killing everyone else with poison.

It's a dumb line of reasoning, and trying to handwave it away with "Monokuma felt like it" undermines the entire point of the series having a killing game with rules. It makes me, as the viewer/gamer, less interested in how the story is told if the logic and rules are flexible.

[Sammy096]

RedBeard a écrit :

It makes me, as the viewer/gamer, less interested in how the story is told if the logic and rules are flexible.

I have to disagree here. In this game's case, I would say it is much more entertaining and less predictable if the rules are flexible and full of loopholes. Also, you should focus on the intend of mastermind behind the plan. Gundham's plan was to kill Nekomaru, Nagito's plan was to get traitor unknowingly kill him.

[BG88HE_FD_PA]

PGSanchez096 a écrit :

RedBeard a écrit :

It makes me, as the viewer/gamer, less interested in how the story is told if the logic and rules are flexible.

I have to disagree here. In this game's case, I would say it is much more entertaining and less predictable if the rules are flexible and full of loopholes.

It's interesting when the students use the wording of the rules to their advantage. It is not interesting when they flatout break them or go against established interpretation in the series and they're just randomly allowed to interpret them two entirely separate ways.

Either intent matters or it doesn't. If it doesn't matter, the killing game becomes a lot dumber and a matter of just trying to set up enough traps, poison, and accidents where everyone else kills themselves. Intent needs to matter in order for me to take the story reasonably seriously. Tricking other people into killing other people isn't exciting and the person engaging in the trickery(intent) should be the blackened.

[BG88HE_FD_PA]

PGSanchez096 a écrit :

. Also, you should focus on the intend of mastermind behind the plan. Gundham's plan was to kill Nekomaru, Nagito's plan was to get traitor unknowingly kill him.

Let's word that even more specifically: Nagito orchestrated a plan to kill himself that involved getting other people to use objects that they didn't know were deadly. The same could be done by poisoning food or trapping doors, as I said.

If we allow this kind of stupidity, then Nagito could have just rigged the bomb in the Restaurant to the door, called everyone to meet him there, and whoever opened the door and set off the bomb to blow them all up would be blackened. As I said to begin with, this "last touch" interpretation allows too much stupidity and intent needs to matter. Otherwise you'd get dumb things like, say, Nagito poisoning the pharmacy medicine, Mikan handing out acetaminophen to Ultimates for headaches, and Mikan being the blackened for handing out medicine she didn't know was poisoned. Or would it be suicide since the Ultimate victim touched it last? Either way, it's stupid.