hope vs despair, not good vs evil (final chapter spoilers)

[Phantron]

One thing that particularly bothered me about the final chapter is that the final showdown with Junko where you specifically have to use 'hope' as your bullet as opposed to anything that'd remotely sound like logic, presumably because this is something like a Star Wars thing where the Ultimate Despair has some kind of Force Persuade powers and if you're not filled with the power of hope people spontaneously kill themselves when she says things like 'super super super super super despair' or 'lame lame lame lame lame lame'. I'm actually okay with this. Makoto is certainly a grade A goody two shoes and a guy you can always count on to watch your back without stabbing you. If you need a chosen one without any shred of darkness you'd definitely go with Makoto.

But the theme of the game isn't good (or purity) versus evil! It's hope!

Just based on the cast I'm pretty sure about (some characters like Leon have far too little to reliably predict how they'd have acted in that scene), here's how I imagine the dialogue in the final scene would've gone.

Hina:
Hina: I won't give up, as long as there are donuts!

Sayaka:
Junko: If I were to die...
*Sayaka cowers in fear*
Junko: Blah blah blah...
*Sayaka stabs Junko with a knife*
Sayaka: This went much better than the chapter 1!

Celeste:
Junko: If I were to die...
*Celeste cowers in fear*
Junko: Blah blah blah
*Celeste smashes Junko with a Justice Hammer and then proceeds to stomp Junko's body repeatedly with her heels*
Celeste: Oh, pardonnez-moi.

Sakura/Mondo would just immediately kill Junko when she revealed herself.

Chihiro:
Junko: If I were to die...
Chihiro: You seem to have a sad story, would you like to hear mine?
(some time later)
Junko: Too... depressing... must kill... self...
Chihiro: But despite that I turned out okay because everyone, including Junko, is someone I admire and gives me the strength to continue!

One of the irony I found is that the two girls willing to commit murder to get out of Hope's Peak are virtually unshakeable in terms of optimism. That is, there's no amount of despair that can stop them from pursuing their dreams. Just because the world has been destroyed isn't going to stop Sayaka from pursuing a career as the Ultimate Pop Sensation (they still have TV, after all), and Celeste can still buy her castle and live out her fantasy with an improved security detail. Junko would have a hard time dealing with people who act first like Mondo or Sakura who simply don't care what she has to say, and if Junko was freaking out over Makoto's positive attitude for a guy who really never overcame any significant adversity (he's probably supposed to be really close to Sayaka, but since they both lost their memories there's no way either of them could know how much of a betrayal that was), I think she'd just spontaneously explode if she had to deal with Chihiro, who was definitely more deserving of the Ultimate Hope than Makoto.

This confusion of theme is also true in the other way. Again, the enemy of the game is supposed to be despair, not evil. I never got the feeling that she inspires despair. For one, Junko seems woefully underqualified in terms of power. I get that the outside source materials says she's supposed to be mega powerful that's just holding back which is why the cast tried to talk her to death instead of just immediately beat her up when she revealed herself, but there's no convincing reason based on the game that she'd be considered a formidable foe to the Ultimates. If all 16 students of Hope's Peak are forced to engage in a battle royale deathmatch where only one person can survive, and assuming all aspects of strength is tested (e.g. you can haxor someone to death or talk someone to death to prevent Sakura or Mukuro from always winning), she's definitely not going to be my pick as the favorite. I'd imagine Junko dies a meaningless early death the same way her imposter did in the game. The favorite based on overall abilities would surely be either Byakuya or Kyoko, who seem incredibly well rounded in overall abilities.

So Byakuya and Kyoko at least satisfies the criteria 'powerful', as in 'watch out guys we can't possibly beat X because he/she is too powerful' to just get around the question of 'how come everyone didn't just immediately fight back?'. And those two are far better candidates as the Ultimate Despair too. We'll start with Byakuya. He pretty much never was actively searching for a way to get out of Hope's Peak. Maybe it's because he's calm and figure he'll eventually outlast the Mastermind, but he's certainly not a guy you'd want to rally around. He doesn't particularly care about his teammates, most likely because he can't be sure if they're his enemies. Although it'd be a stretch, he's a passable candidate just because of how he's portrayed as an aloof and cold-blooded guy who seems to be only interested in his survival.

Then there is Kyoko, who really shows no emotions of any kind despite presumably having some kind of romance going on with Makoto. Everything she does is pretty much for the job. She said that detectives only care about the truth behind Hope's Peak, and in this case the truth is definitely pretty bleak (ironically, she's one of the few that definitely can't handle the truth very well despite being relentless in exposing it). Junko bragged about she doesn't feel anything from death or killing people which makes her super awesome despair. Well, Kyoko just framed Makoto and left him for dead with no way of knowing he could've survived, and after rescuing him it's pretty much 'hey, what's up?' I can't find anything that'd resemble hope on Kyoko. She's pretty much just methodically solving a case one at a time and far more deserving as the Ultimate Despair. Again, this isn't good or evil. Kyoko is obviously a very good person, and there is nothing that says the Ultimate Despair can only justify her existence by killing everyone and their cats.

To me, the conflict of hope and despair should be about who's trying to get out versus who stopped trying. Hope is the guys who want to go out of the doomsday bunker no matter what it takes, while Despair are the guys who are content to just hide inside for the rest of their lives.

[Pikaman20008]

You...seem to have entirely missed the point the game was trying to make. The reason they have hope isn't because they want to escape but because they weren't willing to sacrifice their morality for it. The killers gave up hope of ever being able to escape without killing, which is why they did that. Whereas in the end Makoto convinces everyone else not to give up and to keep moving forward to make their lives the best that they can be despite whatever ♥♥♥♥ they have to deal woth, because THAT is hope.

[Phantron]

You make the same mistake as the game, that hope is good and despair is evil. In reality hope is hope and despair is despair. If you turned on Kyoko on chapter 5 and executed her instead when she tried to frame you, you're told that after Kyoko was executed the survivors lived happily ever after inside Hope's Peak Academy for the rest of their lives, and then it's an immediate 'no this can't be the way it ended!' and you're back to the decision where you've to decide whether to turn on Kyoko and that repeats indefinitely until you sacrifice yourself for her. People sure lived the best they could and chapter 5 was rigged to ensure someone had to die, and it's safe to say that the surviving members greatly prefer Makoto over Kyoko on a personal level and Kyoko tried to frame Makoto first, and yet that scenario is so bleak that the game flat out tells you this can't be the way it ends.

By the way, Kyoko had no way of knowing that Alter Ego is going to show up to save Makoto, so that means she was perfectly fine with sacrificing him because she already said she absolutely have to survive at any cost, even if it means framing Makoto for a murder he didn't commit. How is the team supposed to rally around a figure who betrayed her most trusting companion just because she is apparently The Chosen One? Without the Deus Ex Machina part that Alter Ego plays, both choices are pretty much doomed anyway because nobody trusts Kyoko at all so if Makoto really did die, she'd not be able to rally the team together for the final showdown and that'd just get everyone killed. At least if Kyoko died you know everyone else survived, which is superficially a better ending than Kyoko going after Junko without Makoto which would've ended in disaster immediately due to her complete inability to get anybody to trust her.

[Pikaman20008]

Originally posted by Phantron:

You make the same mistake as the game, that hope is good and despair is evil. In reality hope is hope and despair is despair.

You...obviously have not played DR2. Listen, I'm not saying that all hope is good, but what's important is how the characters used their hope. And the killers obviously did not kill because they were filled with hope of escaping, but because they succumbed to the despair of their situation and felt that they had no other choice.

[Mr Windblade]

I think you're confused about what they're pushing off as true despair. In Danganronpa, it's about throwing away all of your morals, values, and ethics in favor of only survival - basically, the loneliest of existences. It's forcing a character to betray their inner self, irreversably damaging their ego.

The act of murder in the game is not the despair, it's a side effect of despair. When all their hope is gone and they feel they've got nothing at all to lose - they commit murder. The loss of hope comes first, and the murder happens later.

You're right, it's also portrayed in a good vs. evil manner, but it's hard not to when despair is widely considered a negative emotion. It's a case where the antagonizing emotion serves a dual purpose - despair leads the characters to commit evil acts, but evil acts done in despair are so much worse than evil acts done for evil's sake. They're taking someone hopeful, pure, and good, and making them evil.

The premise is, of course, that all of humanity has a tipping point where the morals go out the window and we devolve into an anarchic, animal state. Don't forget - Junko is broadcasting the events at Hope's Peak - the intention is to cause the students to slip into despair, and then, by broadcasting the murders, she's creating more despair among the people who believed that Hope's Peak housed their best and brightest.

[Silvy]

The second game pretty much takes care of your issue due to a certion character that shows how hope is also quite...yeah

[Tatsuya Hiroki]

Originally posted by Mr Windblade:

I think you're confused about what they're pushing off as true despair. In Danganronpa, it's about throwing away all of your morals, values, and ethics in favor of only survival - basically, the loneliest of existences. It's forcing a character to betray their inner self, irreversably damaging their ego.

The act of murder in the game is not the despair, it's a side effect of despair. When all their hope is gone and they feel they've got nothing at all to lose - they commit murder. The loss of hope comes first, and the murder happens later.

You're right, it's also portrayed in a good vs. evil manner, but it's hard not to when despair is widely considered a negative emotion. It's a case where the antagonizing emotion serves a dual purpose - despair leads the characters to commit evil acts, but evil acts done in despair are so much worse than evil acts done for evil's sake. They're taking someone hopeful, pure, and good, and making them evil.

The premise is, of course, that all of humanity has a tipping point where the morals go out the window and we devolve into an anarchic, animal state. Don't forget - Junko is broadcasting the events at Hope's Peak - the intention is to cause the students to slip into despair, and then, by broadcasting the murders, she's creating more despair among the people who believed that Hope's Peak housed their best and brightest.

or rather wasnt the point Junko tried to get across is that Despair always wins over Hope? (at least as much as I can remember from the PSP version)

[Pikaman20008]

or rather wasnt the point Junko tried to get across is that Despair always wins over Hope? (at least as much as I can remember from the PSP version)

Oh no, yeah, that was part of her goal as well.

[Tatsuya Hiroki]

Originally posted by Pikaman20008:

or rather wasnt the point Junko tried to get across is that Despair always wins over Hope? (at least as much as I can remember from the PSP version)

Oh no, yeah, that was part of her goal as well.

otherwise she wouldnt have broadcasted the whole killing thing all over the tv channels

[Wig Bang]

Originally posted by Mr Windblade:

I think you're confused about what they're pushing off as true despair. In Danganronpa, it's about throwing away all of your morals, values, and ethics in favor of only survival - basically, the loneliest of existences. It's forcing a character to betray their inner self, irreversably damaging their ego.

The act of murder in the game is not the despair, it's a side effect of despair. When all their hope is gone and they feel they've got nothing at all to lose - they commit murder. The loss of hope comes first, and the murder happens later.

You're right, it's also portrayed in a good vs. evil manner, but it's hard not to when despair is widely considered a negative emotion. It's a case where the antagonizing emotion serves a dual purpose - despair leads the characters to commit evil acts, but evil acts done in despair are so much worse than evil acts done for evil's sake. They're taking someone hopeful, pure, and good, and making them evil.

The premise is, of course, that all of humanity has a tipping point where the morals go out the window and we devolve into an anarchic, animal state. Don't forget - Junko is broadcasting the events at Hope's Peak - the intention is to cause the students to slip into despair, and then, by broadcasting the murders, she's creating more despair among the people who believed that Hope's Peak housed their best and brightest.

I honestly get the impression you have no idea what you're talking about. You haven't even been able to construct a coherent point.

Did you even play the same game? It wasn't hard to see what Junko was trying to say.