About Chihiro Fujisaki (TRANSPHOBES DNI)

[Mahiron]

There are two main issues I have with the portrayal of Chihiro. Let’s start with the chronologically first one. In chapter 2, Chihiro is murdered. During the trial, a second examination of Chihiro’s body reveals she has male genitalia. The characters remark on how she was “really a boy” and instantly switch to describing her with male pronouns for the rest of the game. Keep in mind, up until this point Chihiro has presented entirely female. The logical conclusion for the characters (and player) to come to at this point is, “Chihiro is a trans girl”.

Later in the trial, a justification for Chihiro’s presenting as a girl is provided, but for the next half hour or so of gameplay, this character, who by all appearances is trans, is missgendered by her former friends for no particular reason. This was actually really new to me and it was absolutely shocking. Occasionally a video game striving to be edgy will include trans people as the butt of a cheap joke or two, but that’s relatively easy to ignore. This was a character’s identity being invalidated at the drop of a hat by people who should be supporting her and for an extended period of gameplay.

After some time – like I said, I think it was around half an hour of gameplay – an explanation is provided. Chihiro is “really a boy” and dressed as a girl because, as a child, she was bullied for being too weak, and presenting as a girl instead was a way to solve that problem. One thing that is striking is that this is a perfectly plausible story of a trans kid finding a justification to present the way they want to. The other thing that is striking is how little sense it makes as anything other than a justification for doing what she already wants to do. A kid crossdressing to be bullied less? On what planet does that make sense? And this hasn’t been something fleeting – by all appearances from what you learn in the game, Chihiro has been presenting as a girl for a long time, maybe even over a decade.

It’s very worth remembering that part of why it’s a huge shame is it’s so rare for a trans character to have such an active and crucial role in a story. With just minor adjustments it could have been one of the best examples of trans representation in video games, but instead it became one of the most shocking examples of transphobia by killing her and deniying her identity even when her dad in Ultra Despair Girls seems to be super supportive about her being trans.

I hope that someday... This community can face the reality and specially, I hope that someday Spike Chunksoft ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ dissapear for doing this to a trans kid.

[kwil]

Chihiro is a male that identifies as such. There is no arguing this. Honestly, everyone's already explained why, and this thread should be locked instead of everyone always bumping this to the top of the forum to say something that's already been said.

[Mysti_Fogg]

Автор сообщения: Rainwalker0

Man why does every game I like end up being transphobic. Yes it's true, people can switch pronouns and cross dress and not be trans, but they were using she/her pronouns at the time of their death and the only reason the characters change to he/him pronouns is because they find out they have a pp. No matter their actual gender identity, this is inherently transphobic, stop trying to make excuses for it. I also don't care that "it was a different time" or "It's from a different culture". Trans people existed in that time and exist that culture. Stop trying to make excuses because it's something you like. This also left a bad taste in my mouth after the gross misunderstanding and harmful misrepresentation of DID patients. ♥♥♥♥ this game.

1) Yes, trans people exist in different cultures.
2) Don't expect them to conform to your culture's idea of trans people. The world is a big place and history is long. There are cultures where trans people are accepted, as well as cultures where non-trans people were forced into a trans existence (before you say that this never happened, farmers in rural Ukraine with too many daughters would select a few of them to be "boys" (I don't actually have the correct word for this because it's actually regarded as a third gender by the people involved), and they would have the rights of men in a patriarchal society including the ability to marry women, as well as the duties of all the hard labor on the farm (which was why they needed boys in the first place. The last of these involuntary trans people were dying out 15 years ago, which was why there was a story about them.).

It's highly likely that the reason the pronouns change is that we're playing it in English. In Japanese they most likely weren't using ANY pronouns because apparently you don't use gendered third person pronouns unless you're being super formal. So in Japanese, they weren't being transphobic because the issue of pronouns wouldn't come up. In the English translation, to bring up the issue of pronouns, they would have had to write whole new scenes discussing whether Chihiro was trans or not to pick a pronoun. The people who did the translation likely chose to change pronouns because if you read the whole story, Chihiro purposely pretends to be a girl in the beginning, so would be she, while later Chihiro is pretty blunt about being a guy who is dressing as a girl to avoid being picked on for being weak and not manly. The translators were essentially respecting how the character identified at each point in the story.

Probably the most "transphobic" bit is the bit where Makoto doesn't accept Chihiro coming out as a guy. Because Makoto believes he's physically a girl (see the underwear scene in the school days minigame).

Danganronpa is not a perfect game by any means. But I'm not just defending it because I like it. I can like problematic things.

However, I think things should be judged fairly, which means understanding why the final product appears the way it does. You're judging a work in translation from a purely western point of view, and that's causing it to look far worse than it is.

[LeoTheBean]

Автор сообщения: Mysti_Fogg

Автор сообщения: Rainwalker0

Man why does every game I like end up being transphobic. Yes it's true, people can switch pronouns and cross dress and not be trans, but they were using she/her pronouns at the time of their death and the only reason the characters change to he/him pronouns is because they find out they have a pp. No matter their actual gender identity, this is inherently transphobic, stop trying to make excuses for it. I also don't care that "it was a different time" or "It's from a different culture". Trans people existed in that time and exist that culture. Stop trying to make excuses because it's something you like. This also left a bad taste in my mouth after the gross misunderstanding and harmful misrepresentation of DID patients. ♥♥♥♥ this game.

1) Yes, trans people exist in different cultures.
2) Don't expect them to conform to your culture's idea of trans people. The world is a big place and history is long. There are cultures where trans people are accepted, as well as cultures where non-trans people were forced into a trans existence (before you say that this never happened, farmers in rural Ukraine with too many daughters would select a few of them to be "boys" (I don't actually have the correct word for this because it's actually regarded as a third gender by the people involved), and they would have the rights of men in a patriarchal society including the ability to marry women, as well as the duties of all the hard labor on the farm (which was why they needed boys in the first place. The last of these involuntary trans people were dying out 15 years ago, which was why there was a story about them.).

It's highly likely that the reason the pronouns change is that we're playing it in English. In Japanese they most likely weren't using ANY pronouns because apparently you don't use gendered third person pronouns unless you're being super formal. So in Japanese, they weren't being transphobic because the issue of pronouns wouldn't come up. In the English translation, to bring up the issue of pronouns, they would have had to write whole new scenes discussing whether Chihiro was trans or not to pick a pronoun. The people who did the translation likely chose to change pronouns because if you read the whole story, Chihiro purposely pretends to be a girl in the beginning, so would be she, while later Chihiro is pretty blunt about being a guy who is dressing as a girl to avoid being picked on for being weak and not manly. The translators were essentially respecting how the character identified at each point in the story.

Probably the most "transphobic" bit is the bit where Makoto doesn't accept Chihiro coming out as a guy. Because Makoto believes he's physically a girl (see the underwear scene in the school days minigame).

Danganronpa is not a perfect game by any means. But I'm not just defending it because I like it. I can like problematic things.

However, I think things should be judged fairly, which means understanding why the final product appears the way it does. You're judging a work in translation from a purely western point of view, and that's causing it to look far worse than it is.

I'm not saying you shouldn't like the game, it's fine to admit something has flaws and still like it. I'm just venting because, as a trans person, it is crazy upsetting and frustrating to be playing a game I like and then have to deal with all of this stuff. In this discussion, Chihiro's actual gender identity isn't really relevant on if the work is transphobic or not. The bottom line is that in the English version of the game, the characters found out that Chihiro had male genitalia, and then switched pronouns. They probably said something about them being a guy in the original Japanese version because it's the whole reason of the scene but don't quote me on that. This is inherently transphobic regardless of their actual gender identity, because all that most of the characters knew was that Chihiro outwardly identified as a girl, and then changed their perception of them just because of genitals.
As far as the cultural differences go, you do know that there are and have been protests for transgender rights in Japan? Yes, historically there is less acceptance and less discussion about gender and trans people in Japan, but there are people fighting for transgender rights there and I'm sure there were when this game was released, though likely on a smaller scale. A cultural nonacceptance is not an excuse for hurting marginalized people who are in that culture. This whole "plot twist" or whatever it was supposed to be should have just been left out. No matter the excuse it's still harmful. I haven't heard of the Ukrainian trans story, but I'm not sure how that's relevant.
You're allowed to have you're opinion on it, and of course you're allowed to still like the game. I just need to have a discussion about this because it really bothered me as a trans person.

[LeoTheBean]

Автор сообщения: kwil

Chihiro is a male that identifies as such. There is no arguing this. Honestly, everyone's already explained why, and this thread should be locked instead of everyone always bumping this to the top of the forum to say something that's already been said.

I personally have things to say that haven't been, and I kinda need/needed to vent about this because it really bothered me and I wanted to hear other peoples' opinions on the topic.
I am not arguing their gender identity. The characters didn't know Chihiro's gender identity when they changed pronoun usage/called them a boy, they only did so because of their body, which is inherently transphobic regardless. Also, of course a group of trans-nonaccepting writers would write a possibly trans character to be just confused.
Apologies for bringing up an old topic, I got into this game late. I'm not someone who can see something I think is wrong in a game I like and just ignore it, especially as a trans person myself.

[Hurkyl]

To avoid being what you call transphobic, you want the writers to have the analogous 'phobia' of crossdressing. You are asking the characters to make assumptions about Chihiro's gender in accordance with your own cultural values.

And it's not like they left it hanging; they established quite promptly that Chihiro was crossdressing, insofar as you accept Monokuma's definitive statements.

I understand that culture shock is shocking, but I've found it rather disturbing over the past few years to see rhetoric made in the name of helping trans people that is varying degrees of hateful towards crossdressers.

(edit: I'm not saying your comments were particularly hateful -- just that I've seen rhetoric along those lines that goes way further)

[LeoTheBean]

Автор сообщения: Hurkyl

To avoid being what you call transphobic, you want the writers to have the analogous 'phobia' of crossdressing. You are asking the characters to make assumptions about Chihiro's gender in accordance with your own cultural values.

And it's not like they left it hanging; they established quite promptly that Chihiro was crossdressing, insofar as you accept Monokuma's definitive statements.

I understand that culture shock is shocking, but I've found it rather disturbing over the past few years to see rhetoric made in the name of helping trans people that is varying degrees of hateful towards crossdressers.

(edit: I'm not saying your comments were particularly hateful -- just that I've seen rhetoric along those lines that goes way further)

As someone who crossdresses, as well as being trans, I am meaning no hate to other cultures or crossdressing. All i’m saying is that people thought someone was a girl, found out about their body, and then changed their perception of their gender. It’s that simple. That is inherently harmful. Chihiro likely is a man, and that’s okay. It’s just the assumption BEFORE finding out otherwise that’s the problem. I will now be turning off notifications to this thread and not be reaponding further because I have vented all I have wished to and only found misunderstanding of my statements and intentions rather than relief of a feeling of hatred and misunderstanding towards my community.

[marie]

This mofo legit got banned from the forums for posting this LMFAOOOO

[Hurkyl]

Автор сообщения: crab game

This mofo legit got banned from the forums for posting this LMFAOOOO :spycon:

No, they weren't; the opening post was mostly fine. The issue with the OP is that their reply to most responses was offensively trolly (basically repeating "you're a transphobe, shut up" over and over). IIRC the mods deleted most of those so you don't see them anymore.

[~Demi-Girl Chaos~]

Автор сообщения: Grimm

but as far as I remember, Chihiro mentions that he or she (idc really) they got sick from being called weak..etc( he got bullied because he is weak and having feminine features). so he changed his appeirence and everything to a female not because he is trans... because of his weakness... I guess he wanted to be called "he" though because he was working out before he died trying to reveal that he is coming out as a he.
so he wasn't trans he was just a male, dressing up as a female.

You are correct, Chihiro is not trans.
You are 100% correct about that :) (Also, if any body calls me a transphobe for this: I am a trans boy. And he dressed as a girl due to being bullied, they were rude to him due to his soft persona etc. Monokuma said about it i think)

[Zeroturne]

When this post will be locked? It's getting controversial now.

[CasiiNova]

BRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR I HATE TRANSIES!!!!! (JK UWU)

[Grantango]

Автор сообщения: Fat Boi

When this post will be locked? It's getting controversial now.

Is saying basic mammalian facts about anatomy controversial?

[mr Гвоздь]

say it louder for the people in the back! it's been difficult for me to even get through the game with chihiro constantly being referred to as male. trans chihiro for the win!

[Ittrix]

So biologically Chihiro is a man.
But they were abused by others (severe bullying) to the point where they feel they need to dress as a woman to escape the constant harassment.

And uh. Some people want this to be a story of trans representation? The story of Chihiro, literally abused into wanting to change their gender? That's ♥♥♥♥♥♥, aside from completely ignoring that Chihiro *wanted* to be a man and was taking steps to escape the abuse so they could dress as one again.

[tixaim]

tbh i agree with pretty much all of this. how they handled chihiro's identity was weird.