Penny's 2-Heart Event: not a fan

[Love Elemental]

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=654466826

So, of the three options, I chose "minding my own business". If it were worded differently, I'd have chosen to side with George.

But "now he's grumpy" isn't my objection to what just happened. What she just did, pushing George out of the way and getting his mail for him, was a kind impulse, but it wasn't a kind thing to do.

See, the problem isn't that she helped him get his mail, or that she wanted to help. The problem is that she wanted to help, and then failed to treat George as an adult in offering that help. She didn't ask, and she wasn't courteous at all. She pushed him out of the way (the sprites make it look like a forceful shove, but I'm willing to overlook that as a limitation of the engine) and grabbed his mail without asking him at all.

George uses a wheelchair, and he gets around pretty well in it. He's perfectly capable of moving himself, and choosing to accept or deny help as he wishes. But Penny didn't offer. She just grabbed his mobility device and took over the task he was trying to accomplish without so much as a by-your-leave.

George's anger here is justified. I wouldn't want to dismiss that as "now you've made him grumpy". Her behavior was rude, and I'd have called her out on it, but the way it's phrased is just plain wrong. So I chose to say nothing. Because I'm certainly not going to praise her kind impulses and ignore her rudeness.

*sigh* I'd just kind of like a better option, you know? Penny was in the wrong, George was in the right. Him apologizing rubs me the wrong way, even if I know that's probably the way it would go in real life, too.

[trekwiz]

Originally posted by feralgal:

Originally posted by trekwiz:

That's fair.

What other scenes did you dislike? I do remember a few being slightly lacking, but not quite to this extent.

I forgot to add the part that really bugs me about George's response. Penny is fairly young. The whole point (I thought) of SV was the idea that the small town is a real community. Ppl try to know and help each other. But George doesn't seem to recognize (at all) his responsibility to educate Penny and try to help her be a better person. It's especially bad here IMO bc she's trying to be a good person and fails, not bc she's too busy to help other ppl or doesn't care, but bc she lacks the knowledge of how what she's doing is disrespectful or how she could do better. This is a really good opportunity to help educate her and he is so focused on himself and oblivious to his responsibility to the community here. I don't mean to overblow it. He's human and he messed up a bit just like she did.

I don't remember exactly which ones bugged me. Quite a few of them. I went into them expecting that my choices would be bad and shallow. Like someone else said, it seemed like the main point was one response to gain approval, one to lose approval, and one neutral. They didn't seem to make much more sense than that. I think maybe Shane's, Leah's, and at least a few others but I could be wrong.

The thing that really bugs me is that the characters seem male-centric. E.g., Haley is a shallow flake just bc but Alex has "reasons", as does Sebastian. But I mostly try to ignore the interactions in SV bc none of them seem good or interesting to me.

I wouldn't put it mostly on him, though: my read of the situation is that they're looking to the player to guide the next step, as happens in other situations. I would think the player having the option of calling Penny rude would give George that chance to educate.

Also, realistically, if you've just gone through the frustration of being unable to accomplish a mundane task and then had someone push you out of the way, I don't think you'd be feeling very educational. I think it's fair for George to have felt the way he did--I wouldn't expect a real person in that position to feel any differently.

Admittedly, I haven't noticed male-centricity, but as I'm gay, I haven't pursued many of the stories beyond the male romances. This time around I hit a few others to snag the social achievements. I did feel that it's a little odd that the town only has gay or bi villagers if the player is gay, so I'm really not surprised that it would also be hetero-male oriented in many ways. (Though I must say that it is much better about gay representation than most games I've played.)

[feralgal]

Originally posted by trekwiz:

I wouldn't put it mostly on him, though: my read of the situation is that they're looking to the player to guide the next step, as happens in other situations. I would think the player having the option of calling Penny rude would give George that chance to educate.

Also, realistically, if you've just gone through the frustration of being unable to accomplish a mundane task and then had someone push you out of the way, I don't think you'd be feeling very educational. I think it's fair for George to have felt the way he did--I wouldn't expect a real person in that position to feel any differently.

Admittedly, I haven't noticed male-centricity, but as I'm gay, I haven't pursued many of the stories beyond the male romances. This time around I hit a few others to snag the social achievements. I did feel that it's a little odd that the town only has gay or bi villagers if the player is gay, so I'm really not surprised that it would also be hetero-male oriented in many ways. (Though I must say that it is much better about gay representation than most games I've played.)

I'm not putting it mostly on him. Penny flat out messed up. IMO both of them did. I understand the frustration. I have lived through that. But I try to be much more patient with someone who is trying to help me and messes up bc they don't understand why what they're doing is unhelpful. That's especially true if they're young and inexperienced (in life in general) as well as probably not familiar with disability issues. Now if I try to explain a few times and they refuse to listen, I get testy. ;-) And I get having a bad day. When I'm in a lot of pain, I'm much less patient. (But, for all you know, both of them were having a bad day. Or a good day. Who knows.)

[trekwiz]

Originally posted by feralgal:

Originally posted by trekwiz:

I wouldn't put it mostly on him, though: my read of the situation is that they're looking to the player to guide the next step, as happens in other situations. I would think the player having the option of calling Penny rude would give George that chance to educate.

Also, realistically, if you've just gone through the frustration of being unable to accomplish a mundane task and then had someone push you out of the way, I don't think you'd be feeling very educational. I think it's fair for George to have felt the way he did--I wouldn't expect a real person in that position to feel any differently.

Admittedly, I haven't noticed male-centricity, but as I'm gay, I haven't pursued many of the stories beyond the male romances. This time around I hit a few others to snag the social achievements. I did feel that it's a little odd that the town only has gay or bi villagers if the player is gay, so I'm really not surprised that it would also be hetero-male oriented in many ways. (Though I must say that it is much better about gay representation than most games I've played.)

I'm not putting it mostly on him. Penny flat out messed up. IMO both of them did. I understand the frustration. I have lived through that. But I am much more patient with someone who is trying to help me and messes up bc they don't understand why what they're doing is unhelpful. That's especially true if they're young and inexperienced (in life in general) as well as probably not familiar with disability issues. Now if I try to explain and they refuse to listen, I get testy. ;-)

Sometimes being testy is necessary. (-;

[feralgal]

Just to add on about George vs Penny. I 100% agree it's frustrating when someone "helps" you when you don't need or want help. It's obnoxious and disrespectful. But I would easily put up with 100 instances of that in order to have someone there when I need help. E.g., a recent example is that my jacket got caught in a push door. I couldn't get the door open. It was raining. Hard. I use a walker which means I can never use an umbrella. When it rains, I get wet. I was in pain and standing there was making it a lot worse. I tried and tried but couldn't open the door and I couldn't leave unless I did. I even tried taking off my jacket but couldn't. Some ppl walked by but no one was using that door (or acknowledging me). Finally, some guy starts yelling at me that I'm blocking the door. But he opened the door for me as he's kind of pushing me out of the way. I thought he was a jerk for yelling at me/pushing me but I didn't really care! I was free! Woo hoo! And that time of needing help was not scary, which some of them are. It's very humbling to realize that you absolutely can't do something you need to do without some stranger's help.

I try to always let ppl who help me know that I truly appreciate their taking the time and making the effort to help me. (that was hard at first bc I hate needing help.) I want them to help ppl who need it. Most ppl do not and, as frustrating as it is when ppl don't respect your wishes (and I hate, hate, hate that), it's so much, much, much more frustrating (and sometimes scary) to need someone to help you and not have anyone. So I want to do whatever I can to encourage ppl who have the time and energy to try to ask ppl (who are not always disabled) if they need help and help them if they can. As I said, I'd put up with 100 instances of obnoxious help if it meant having help when I really needed it just one time. (Not the time in my example but some of the scary times.)

[Ekat]

Why hello there, feralgal. I completely agree. And trekwiz, don't go on being rude just because you're the only one you think is "educated". In your eyes, I'm now a dummy and I don't appreciate that.

Don't think that I'm "unintelligent". Do you have any proof? No, you don't, except for your mind being "Oh,why, people that disagree with me are dumb." If it's not that, why are you blabbering

Originally posted by trekwiz:

you clearly have a knowledge gap--you should close it (I already gave you the links so you can be lazy and not even do the work yourself) instead of celebrating your ignorance.

this? I know that George was grumpy because of that, but I still have the right to think that you're rude. If you guys think that Penny was rude, why can't I think that you're rude because I have the clear quote where you're rude?

This thread is a year old, now that I see it.

[trekwiz]

Originally posted by feralgal:

Just to add on about George vs Penny. I 100% agree it's frustrating when someone "helps" you when you don't need or want help. It's obnoxious and disrespectful. But I would easily put up with 100 instances of that in order to have someone there when I need help.

...

I try to always let ppl who help me know that I truly appreciate their taking the time and making the effort to help me.

I believe the scene did do that: George ends up apologizing and thanking Penny. But the player--who's asked to chime in--never gets to tell her that she's being disrespectful.

Thank you for sharing your experience. I can only imagine how unpleasant that must have been.

Originally posted by EDH 0330:

Why hello there, feralgal. I completely agree. And trekwiz, don't go on being rude just because you're the only one you think is "educated". In your eyes, I'm now a dummy and I don't appreciate that.

Don't think that I'm "unintelligent". Do you have any proof? No, you don't, except for your mind being "Oh,why, people that disagree with me are dumb." If it's not that, why are you blabbering

Originally posted by trekwiz:

you clearly have a knowledge gap--you should close it (I already gave you the links so you can be lazy and not even do the work yourself) instead of celebrating your ignorance.

this? I know that George was grumpy because of that, but I still have the right to think that you're rude. If you guys think that Penny was rude, why can't I think that you're rude because I have the clear quote where you're rude?

This thread is a year old, now that I see it.

Read through the thread--many people are aware of the reality of how rude Penny's interaction was. You're the only one continuing to defend rude behavior out of ignorance and refusing to educate yourself on the subject.

Calling someone out for being rude isn't rude. If you intentionally knocked someone's groceries out of their hands and just kept walking away, it wouldn't be rude to tell you that you're misbehaving and suggesting that you take the time to figure out what you did wrong. It also wouldn't be rude to make the same statements towards someone who defended those actions.

You're putting the word "unintelligent" in my mouth. I used the words "ignorant" and "lazy," both of which you've demonstrated. Both of which are temporary states that can be fixed if you had any desire to. Choosing not to when you have the opportunity is "unintelligent." That's your choice to make, but it does reflect who you are as a person.

[Ekat]

What's so bad about me standing for my opinion? You're doing it too. And "ignorant" and "lazy" is just because I don't agree with you. I have no desire to fix my opinion. How is "groceries" similar to this? So, 100~ users to 1 user. Yea, I don't care, but look. I see that Penny did it wrong. But it was unintentional to hurt George's feelings. And now you're intentionally trying to force me to the way I don't want to go. You're taking me wrong. I said,

Originally posted by EDH 0330:

Yes, he is grumpy, and I would've chose the one that decreases friendship

and you're taking me as the odd one out. Penny wanted to help. Your websites aren't doing any help.

[trekwiz]

Originally posted by EDH 0330:

What's so bad about me standing for my opinion? You're doing it too. And "ignorant" and "lazy" is just because I don't agree with you. I have no desire to fix my opinion. How is "groceries" similar to this? So, 100~ users to 1 user. Yea, I don't care, but look. I see that Penny did it wrong. But it was unintentional to hurt George's feelings. And now you're intentionally trying to force me to the way I don't want to go. You're taking me wrong. I said,

Originally posted by EDH 0330:

Yes, he is grumpy, and I would've chose the one that decreases friendship

and you're taking me as the odd one out. Penny wanted to help. Your websites aren't doing any help.

You said that she did not behave rudely. It's a fact that she did. That you don't understand why she was rude is a problem.

[I Kinda Fail]

This thread should probably be locked.

Penny was being rude, but her intentions were good. She was trying to help. It's a common problem with the elderly - they start to snap at their nurses for helping them, because they want to do things for themselves; sometimes they can, sometimes they can't, but if someone takes the option of trying away from them then it's kind of rude.

I agree that the options need a re-writing.
+Penny: That was nice of you
+George: You shoved him, even if you were trying to help
Neutral: She meant well, George

[trekwiz]

Originally posted by I Kinda Fail:

I agree that the options need a re-writing.
+Penny: That was nice of you
+George: You shoved him, even if you were trying to help
Neutral: She meant well, George

That's all I was arguing for--a rewrite of the player options to acknowledge her rudeness when siding with George. Not a complete removal of the scene.

[Ekat]

I agree with I Kinda Fail. She was disrespectful, but her intentions were good.

[Ekat]

Spanish version:
Estoy de acuerdo con I Kinda Fail. Ella fue irrespetuosa, pero sus intenciones fueron buenas.

[trekwiz]

That is literally what this whole thread was about: the game doesn't offer you any option to recognize that she was rude without insulting George.

[Ekat]

What about:
"I see that you tried to help, but don't push other people next time?"

[trekwiz]

Something like that would absolutely cover it.