Penny's 2-Heart Event: not a fan

[Love Elemental]

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=654466826

So, of the three options, I chose "minding my own business". If it were worded differently, I'd have chosen to side with George.

But "now he's grumpy" isn't my objection to what just happened. What she just did, pushing George out of the way and getting his mail for him, was a kind impulse, but it wasn't a kind thing to do.

See, the problem isn't that she helped him get his mail, or that she wanted to help. The problem is that she wanted to help, and then failed to treat George as an adult in offering that help. She didn't ask, and she wasn't courteous at all. She pushed him out of the way (the sprites make it look like a forceful shove, but I'm willing to overlook that as a limitation of the engine) and grabbed his mail without asking him at all.

George uses a wheelchair, and he gets around pretty well in it. He's perfectly capable of moving himself, and choosing to accept or deny help as he wishes. But Penny didn't offer. She just grabbed his mobility device and took over the task he was trying to accomplish without so much as a by-your-leave.

George's anger here is justified. I wouldn't want to dismiss that as "now you've made him grumpy". Her behavior was rude, and I'd have called her out on it, but the way it's phrased is just plain wrong. So I chose to say nothing. Because I'm certainly not going to praise her kind impulses and ignore her rudeness.

*sigh* I'd just kind of like a better option, you know? Penny was in the wrong, George was in the right. Him apologizing rubs me the wrong way, even if I know that's probably the way it would go in real life, too.

[Ekat]

Siding with George shouldn't require hating Penny also.

[trekwiz]

Siding with George SHOULD require recognizing that Penny was rude.

[Ekat]

Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat. I don't understand.

[Eneicia]

EDH 0330님이 먼저 게시:

Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat. I don't understand.

Okay. What if I walked up to you, grabbed your shoulders, and physically moved you out of my way? And what if a third party told me "You shouldn't have done that, now you've made him grumpy." That's belittling to you, more than me. Now if they said "That was very rude of you." That's telling me I've done something wrong, without belittling you.

[Ekat]

I wouldn't mind if anyone did that. Penny was just moving George out of the way so she can get the mail for him.

[Ekat]

trekwiz님이 먼저 게시:

No, it's not a kind thing, and your analogy is exactly why: she treated him as a baby with no autonomy on his own. It doesn't matter that it was a small push; she moved him without his consent. It's an absolutely rude thing to do.

Here are some resources for further education:
https://avacaremedical.com/blog/10-tips-for-interactions-with-wheelchair-users.html

https://www.quora.com/Should-I-offer-to-push-someone-in-a-wheelchair-if-I-see-them-on-the-street

https://enablingvillage.sg/2016/12/06/10-times-you-were-accidentally-rude-to-a-person-with-a-disability/

Now YOU'RE treating me like a baby. Just because you side with George and I side with Penny doesn't mean you should hate me heartily. You think on Penny's side, because you've been on George's mind all the way. I understand why George was grumpy, but I don't think it was right to just be mad at her. After the event, you have an option to choose "That's why we should respect our elders." And Penny agreed! She was trying to be kind, except that it got a little bit jumbled. It's like scolding a bird for eating insects, except that it happened wrong and it damaged some things. In this case, Penny didn't damage anything.

[trekwiz]

EDH 0330님이 먼저 게시:

trekwiz님이 먼저 게시:

No, it's not a kind thing, and your analogy is exactly why: she treated him as a baby with no autonomy on his own. It doesn't matter that it was a small push; she moved him without his consent. It's an absolutely rude thing to do.

Here are some resources for further education:
https://avacaremedical.com/blog/10-tips-for-interactions-with-wheelchair-users.html

https://www.quora.com/Should-I-offer-to-push-someone-in-a-wheelchair-if-I-see-them-on-the-street

https://enablingvillage.sg/2016/12/06/10-times-you-were-accidentally-rude-to-a-person-with-a-disability/

Now YOU'RE treating me like a baby. Just because you side with George and I side with Penny doesn't mean you should hate me heartily. You think on Penny's side, because you've been on George's mind all the way. I understand why George was grumpy, but I don't think it was right to just be mad at her. After the event, you have an option to choose "That's why we should respect our elders." And Penny agreed! She was trying to be kind, except that it got a little bit jumbled. It's like scolding a bird for eating insects, except that it happened wrong and it damaged some things. In this case, Penny didn't damage anything.

Well, yes--because you're refusing to educate yourself on the subject and acting like a baby. This isn't ambiguous: this is a well-known form of rudeness. You'd be aware of that if you looked at the links I provided. There's no excusing what she did; it's objectively wrong.

It also has nothing to do with respecting elders. What she did wrong has nothing to do with his age. The wrongness of her actions have nothing to do with him being grumpy.

And to be blunt, you're lying when you say you wouldn't object to someone pushing you out of the way. That invasion of space and autonomy is universally frowned upon and reacted to negatively.

[Ekat]

trekwiz님이 먼저 게시:

Well, yes--because you're refusing to educate yourself on the subject and acting like a baby. This isn't ambiguous: this is a well-known form of rudeness. You'd be aware of that if you looked at the links I provided. There's no excusing what she did; it's objectively wrong.

It also has nothing to do with respecting elders. What she did wrong has nothing to do with his age. The wrongness of her actions have nothing to do with him being grumpy.

And to be blunt, you're lying when you say you wouldn't object to someone pushing you out of the way. That invasion of space and autonomy is universally frowned upon and reacted to negatively.

And for me to be blunt, I think that you're making no sense.

[eMYNOCK]

ah.. the Mail Incident...

I agree that Penny is indeed rude towards George... but given her age i assume she simply does not knows aboug Georges feelings in this exact situation.

Yes, at last one Dialog line needs to be changed from my point of view... it would even be enough to change or exclude the "Badword of this Thread" aka Grumpy.

I personally know George in each Playthrough better before i know Penny... this knowledge and my knowledge that she treats him like she propably treats Vincent or Jas (or even Pam, who knows) does not stop me from siding with Penny.

She asked him if she can help.. sure he had no chance to respond but George should know that Pennys only intention was to help him.

Like she would do for Vince and Jas.. and her own Mother maybe.

Yes, George has all the rights to be angry in this Situation and Penny should have waited for his response (but she simply might not be aware of his Situation and accidentially ambushed him with her help).


Anyway... i still agree that the 2nd Dialog Option needs to be changed and therefore should not affect the relationship with any of the two.

[trekwiz]

EDH 0330님이 먼저 게시:

trekwiz님이 먼저 게시:

Well, yes--because you're refusing to educate yourself on the subject and acting like a baby. This isn't ambiguous: this is a well-known form of rudeness. You'd be aware of that if you looked at the links I provided. There's no excusing what she did; it's objectively wrong.

It also has nothing to do with respecting elders. What she did wrong has nothing to do with his age. The wrongness of her actions have nothing to do with him being grumpy.

And to be blunt, you're lying when you say you wouldn't object to someone pushing you out of the way. That invasion of space and autonomy is universally frowned upon and reacted to negatively.

And for me to be blunt, I think that you're making no sense.

You must not know anyone with a disability, then. There is no standard by which her behavior could be seen as anything but rude. Seriously, if you have a knowledge gap, go fill it in. You're making yourself look terrible.

eMYNOCK (MadHwK)님이 먼저 게시:

ah.. the Mail Incident...

I agree that Penny is indeed rude towards George... but given her age i assume she simply does not knows aboug Georges feelings in this exact situation.

Yes, at last one Dialog line needs to be changed from my point of view... it would even be enough to change or exclude the "Badword of this Thread" aka Grumpy.

I personally know George in each Playthrough better before i know Penny... this knowledge and my knowledge that she treats him like she propably treats Vincent or Jas (or even Pam, who knows) does not stop me from siding with Penny.

She asked him if she can help.. sure he had no chance to respond but George should know that Pennys only intention was to help him.

Like she would do for Vince and Jas.. and her own Mother maybe.

Yes, George has all the rights to be angry in this Situation and Penny should have waited for his response (but she simply might not be aware of his Situation and accidentially ambushed him with her help).


Anyway... i still agree that the 2nd Dialog Option needs to be changed and therefore should not affect the relationship with any of the two.

I mostly agree with you--but I don't think knowledge/ignorance of how he ended up in the chair is relevant. Even if she doesn't know the cause, it's still rude to intrude on his space and infringe on his autonomy by pushing him without consent--that is one of the biggest things you can do wrong to someone in a wheelchair. That she was treating him like a child is part of why it's so rude: he's an adult, and she took that way from him.

Just changing that one line would fix it completely.

[Ekat]

I have a sort of disability myself, so don't call me terrible. Yes, he is grumpy, and I would've chose the one that decreases friendship but I saw it on Penny's side and I didn't want the "grumpy" option to exist. But SERIOUSLY, I'M SPEAKING TO YOU, TREKWIZ, IT'S A GAME! IT DOESN'T MATTER IN A GAME.

Probably best if this thread was locked.

[trekwiz]

EDH 0330님이 먼저 게시:

I have a sort of disability myself, so don't call me terrible. Yes, he is grumpy, and I would've chose the one that decreases friendship but I saw it on Penny's side and I didn't want the "grumpy" option to exist. But SERIOUSLY, I'M SPEAKING TO YOU, TREKWIZ, IT'S A GAME! IT DOESN'T MATTER IN A GAME.

Probably best if this thread was locked.

You ARE being terrible. You're literally defending behavior that is, objectively, rude. And yes, it matters even in a game: as written, it gives the wrong impression of how to behave towards someone in a wheelchair.

Again, you clearly have a knowledge gap--you should close it (I already gave you the links so you can be lazy and not even do the work yourself) instead of celebrating your ignorance.

[feralgal]

trekwiz님이 먼저 게시:

EDH 0330님이 먼저 게시:

I have a sort of disability myself, so don't call me terrible. Yes, he is grumpy, and I would've chose the one that decreases friendship but I saw it on Penny's side and I didn't want the "grumpy" option to exist. But SERIOUSLY, I'M SPEAKING TO YOU, TREKWIZ, IT'S A GAME! IT DOESN'T MATTER IN A GAME.

Probably best if this thread was locked.

You ARE being terrible. You're literally defending behavior that is, objectively, rude. And yes, it matters even in a game: as written, it gives the wrong impression of how to behave towards someone in a wheelchair.

Again, you clearly have a knowledge gap--you should close it (I already gave you the links so you can be lazy and not even do the work yourself) instead of celebrating your ignorance.

I also have a disability and if I could have written the dialog, I would have kind of called both Penny and George out. Penny absolutely should not have just taken over for George. Asking if she could help is great. Just doing it without waiting for his response is wrong. I'd have praised her for her good intent but pointed out how that isn't respectful to George and so does not accomplish her intent.

But he is grumpy about it. IMO if he didn't have Evelyn helping him all the time, he would have appreciated Penny's intent even if her actions fell short. When you've been stranded enough times with no one helping you and you're just &*&*ed bc you can't do something (and you see most ppl walk or drive by bc they're too busy to help - not being snarky, they aren't responsible for me), you appreciate when ppl take the time to try to help you. I mean, you REALLY appreciate it, even if the result isn't perfect. He didn't seem to get that at first. So, I understand his frustration. Penny shouldn't have just taken over. But he's old enough to understand that her intent was good and maybe should have thanked her first then tried to explain that if she really wants to help him, she needed to respect his agency.

But I have a problem with a lot of the scenes. There are several that I think have problems with the available responses.

[trekwiz]

feralgal님이 먼저 게시:

trekwiz님이 먼저 게시:

You ARE being terrible. You're literally defending behavior that is, objectively, rude. And yes, it matters even in a game: as written, it gives the wrong impression of how to behave towards someone in a wheelchair.

Again, you clearly have a knowledge gap--you should close it (I already gave you the links so you can be lazy and not even do the work yourself) instead of celebrating your ignorance.

I also have a disability and if I could have written the dialog, I would have kind of called both Penny and George out. Penny absolutely should not have just taken over for George. Asking if she could help is great. Just doing it without waiting for his response is wrong. I'd have praised her for her good intent but pointed out how that isn't respectful to George and so does not accomplish her intent.

But he is grumpy about it. IMO if he didn't have Evelyn helping him all the time, he would have appreciated Penny's intent even if her actions fell short. When you've been stranded enough times with no one helping you and you're just &*&*ed bc you can't do something (and you see most ppl walk or drive by bc they're too busy to help - not being snarky, they aren't responsible for me), you appreciate when ppl take the time to try to help you. I mean, you REALLY appreciate it, even if the result isn't perfect. He didn't seem to get that at first. So, I understand his frustration. Penny shouldn't have just taken over. But he's old enough to understand that her intent was good and maybe should have thanked her first then tried to explain that if she really wants to help him, she needed to respect his agency.

But I have a problem with a lot of the scenes. There are several that I think have problems with the available responses.

That's fair.

What other scenes did you dislike? I do remember a few being slightly lacking, but not quite to this extent.

[feralgal]

trekwiz님이 먼저 게시:

That's fair.

What other scenes did you dislike? I do remember a few being slightly lacking, but not quite to this extent.

I forgot to add the part that really bugs me about George's response. Penny is fairly young. The whole point (I thought) of SV was the idea that the small town is a real community. Ppl try to know and help each other. But George doesn't seem to recognize (at all) his responsibility to educate Penny and try to help her be a better person. It's especially bad here IMO bc she's trying to be a good person and fails, not bc she's too busy to help other ppl or doesn't care, but bc she lacks the knowledge of how what she's doing is disrespectful or how she could do better. This is a really good opportunity to help educate her and he is so focused on himself and oblivious to his responsibility to the community here that he doesn't even try. I don't mean to overblow it. He's human and he messed up a bit just like she did.

I don't remember exactly which ones bugged me. Quite a few of them. I went into them expecting that my choices would be bad and shallow. Like someone else said, it seemed like the main point was one response to gain approval, one to lose approval, and one neutral. They didn't seem to make much more sense than that. I think maybe Shane's, Leah's, and at least a few others but I could be wrong.

The thing that really bugs me is that the characters seem male-centric. E.g., Haley is a shallow flake just bc but Alex has "reasons", as do Shane and Sebastian. But I mostly try to ignore the interactions in SV bc none of them seem good or interesting to me.