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Angela™ Jan 30, 2019 @ 3:20pm

For those hung up on the 30% vs 12% argueing point:

https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2018/12/steam-now-gives-its-biggest-developers-a-bigger-cut-of-the-revenue/

"In an announcement posted late Friday, Valve said that it would lower its usual 30 percent take to 25 percent for any game's earnings beyond $10 million (including "game packages, DLC, in-game sales, and Community Marketplace game fees"). The platform fee reduces further to 20 percent for earnings that surpass $50 million."

So basically, your game sells well, you pay less. Your game sells very well, you pay even less. No idea if there's another tier above that but there you go.

You are now debating whether or not an 8% difference is worth trading in visibility and platform preference over.

For reference, it would take 833.334 copies sold to reach 50m priced @60 USD. That's complete base price, without 30% subtracted. With would make that number 1.190.477 copies sold. Something very reasonable and likely to happen if your game has enough following and interest.

Last edited by Angela™; Jan 30, 2019 @ 3:23pm

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Originally posted by Captain of the 4th Company:

https://www.reddit.com/r/pcgaming/comments/a9lntx/ubisoft_needs_to_stop_with_this_always_online/ecltfdj/?context=3

One of the responses to Tim Sweeney post debunking his statements:

I'm extremely tired but here we go.

Sweeney - It’s up to you guys to decide what’s anti-consumer, but our aim with the Epic Games store is to be very pro-competitive. In other words, to compete as a store and encourage healthy competition between stores.

Response - Purchasing exclusivity rights for games totally screams encouraging healthy competition between stores (which is why it's very surprising that it's never been done before in the digital marketplace). Now, I am not worth $1.8 Billion nor a high-level executive at a multinational company but my understanding of competition is that you compete on prices, service & features. You don't just invest money in order to restrict free trading which actually reduces competition.

Sweeney - When lots of stores compete, the result is a combination of better prices for you, better deals for developers, and more investment in new content and innovation. These exclusives don’t come to stores for free; they’re a result of some combination of marketing commitments, development funding, or revenue guarantees. This all helps developers.

Response - I'm not sure how you can argue that Epic's actions will result in better pricing for the consumer, given that by purchasing exclusivity rights I am no longer able to shop around at multiple retailers, I am given only one price.

In the digital marketplace exclusives are exclusive for one of four reasons:

1.The games are developed or published by the company behind the client (e.g. Portal, Fortnite, Need for Speed); this applies for all launchers and nobody has an issue with it.

2.The games are released exclusively for a platform due to the publishers independent choice (i.e. they are not receiving direct payment for it). Whilst this is very rare (after all, it requires 0 extra development to make your game available on Humble Store etc), nobody has an issue with it because it's a publisher's independent decision. This can potentially apply to all launchers, but AFAIK this only really happens with Steam and Origin (they was a battle bot type game that was exclusive to Origin if I recall correctly, but I don't remember the name of the game).

3.The developer has made an independent decision to use an API that requires it to integrate directly with a launcher. This could happen with any client, but only happens with Steam and the Steamworks API, which Valve does not pay anyone to use. Developers choose to integrate it because it cuts down on development time and provides a lot of useful features for both themselves and the users (e.g. Achievements, Trading, Matchmaking, Anti-Cheat).

4.The company behind the client has paid for exclusivity rights, preventing the game from being released elsewhere through the use of a bribe. This has only happened with the Epic Games Store; the games could be released on other store fronts with 0 extra development. This is where the issue lies and is the only instance where the game is not coming to the store for free.

Sweeney - For comparison, much of the investment in new TV content is the result of Netflix and Amazon competing with new stores.

Response - Right, except Netflix and Amazon are functionally identical, it's not like if I want to watch a show with subtitles and HD I have to purchase it on Netflix as Amazon is limited to 480p and doesn't support subtitles. This isn't the case with the Epic Games Store; a more apt analogy would be if the cable TV companies were investing their money... by purchasing exclusive rights for TV shows and preventing Netflix and Amazon from showing the latest shows in order to increase their market share and maximise their advertising revenue. In this analogy, just like in reality, the experiences are not functionally identical. If I purchase from the Epic Games Store I am locked into it and would (as an example) miss out on the following useful features provided by Steam:

- The ability to take, store and share screenshots & videos

- The ability to leave reviews and read others reviews

- The ability to stream your games and watch other people's streams

- The ability to earn achievements, compare with your friends and view global statistics

- The ability to access the Internet, your music, your friends chat etc whilst in-game

- The ability to create and share guides

- The ability to tracking the amount of time you've played each game (great for us stats nerds)

- Forums

- Social Media Features / Integration with existing Social Media

- The ability to share and install mods at the push of a button via the Steam Workshop

- The ability to create and share a wishlist, and gift games from other people's wishlists

- A mode dedicated to playing games on a large screen such as a TV via Big Picture Mode; due to Valve's development efforts there is also the Steam link which is now available as an app

- VR Support

- Controller Compatibility & Configuration for just about every game

- Trading / Selling of cosmetic items

- Matchmaking and the ability to easily join games with friends using one unified account

- Syncing of save data and automatic online storage

As it stands you're throwing money at publishers and yet you're actively deteriorating the consumer's experience. Epic is not the good guys here, especially if Valve decides to respond to your actions and also starts paying for exclusivity rights to games, resulting in an even more fractured marketplace.

Sweeney - The proliferation of launchers is an annoying side effect of this, but the problem could eventually be solved through federated or decentralized software update tools. There are ongoing conversations about this.

Response - Perhaps rather than purchasing exclusivity rights you should invest your money into lobbying for / developing a federated or decentralised client? Alternatively you could invest the money into the client, so there is a reason (other than being forced to) to use your client over one of the competitors.

Sweeney - But multiple stores are necessary for the health of an ecosystem. When there’s only one, their natural tendency is to siphon off more and more of the revenue, which then go to monopoly profits rather than CREATORS!

Response - The uproar about the Epic Games Store isn't coming from developers and publishers, it's coming from the consumers. Where the revenue goes is irrelevant to the consumer, what's important is what is being offered for my money.

As it stands, you're expecting me to be happy and thankful that because of Epic's actions my choices as a consumer have been reduced; that I am no longer able to use my client of choice for certain games and that my gaming experience has been negatively impacted.

Sweeney - All developers recognize this because their business are being crushed under the weight of these increasing store taxes.

Response - Now I'm not a developer, but I find it interesting that this is the first time I have ever heard of increasing store taxes. As far as I am aware the standard store tax is still 30%, as it has been for decades. There's not been any mention of Valve, Microsoft etc increasing their cut on Reddit, PCGamer etc

This is why devs have been super enthusiastic about the Epic store. For users, I get that it’s yet another launcher and if you have Steam installed you’d prefer to just use it. But if you want way better games to be built in the future, then please recognize what good this store can do. Steam takes 30% and Epic takes 12%. That’s an 18% difference, and most devs make WAY less than an 18% profit margin - so this can be the difference between being able to fund a new game and going bankrupt!

You're asking us to actively use and encourage an (objectively) inferior experience because of something that might happen in the future. As a consumer, the only thing that is important is the here and now.

Sweeney - This obviously isn't a perfect analogy, but if Costco (a company that pays its employees very well) developed a phone and sold it for the same price as an iPhone, with significantly less features do you know which of the two phones consumers would pick? That's right, the iPhone. The fact that Costco pays its employees very well does not matter to consumers, what's important is the fact that the iPhone offers more features.

Response - Now imagine that Costco was paying mobile phone providers so that iPhones were unable to use their network so you would have to use the Costco mobile phone and you've got how Epic is currently acting.

TL;DR An apt response for everything Sweeney said, basically telling him to f off with his comments because they are lies

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Showing 1-15 of 248 comments

TheEvilNoob has Metro Exodus

Jan 30, 2019 @ 3:39pm

Logic? We don’t do that on the Steam forums.

Finger

Jan 30, 2019 @ 3:41pm

You're too smart for this place

SedrynTyros Jan 30, 2019 @ 3:44pm

I just came for the butthurt ... and there sure is a lot of it. And for no good reason. Anyone who wants the game can still buy it, lol.

Last edited by SedrynTyros; Jan 30, 2019 @ 3:44pm

Angela™ Jan 30, 2019 @ 3:46pm

Originally posted by Nice guy nat soc:
You're too smart for this place

D'awh.

MisterDking has Metro Exodus

Jan 30, 2019 @ 3:47pm

Originally posted by SedrynTyros:
I just came for the butthurt ... and there sure is a lot of it. And for no good reason. Anyone who wants the game can still buy it, lol.

Yeah we can still buy it on epic store that offer no verify integrity of game file and backup.

Last edited by MisterDking; Jan 30, 2019 @ 3:49pm

Vampire Detective has Metro Exodus

Jan 30, 2019 @ 3:48pm

Originally posted by Vivian H. /pol/nareff:
Originally posted by Nice guy nat soc:
You're too smart for this place
D'awh.

Finger

Jan 30, 2019 @ 3:48pm

Originally posted by SedrynTyros:
I just came for the butthurt ... and there sure is a lot of it. And for no good reason. Anyone who wants the game can still buy it, lol.

Reading is pretty hard isn't it.

Grrizz

Jan 30, 2019 @ 3:48pm

Yep, basically with the price difference the tipping point that turns revenue in favour of Steam is about 500,000 units which I would expect to easily be achievable for a title like this, the further they go above that the more they would have made on Steam.

Of course we dont know how many millions Epic paid for the exclusivity deal and we can only speculate on how many sales they will lose from the change of platform and controversy around it, both thigs will sway which decision is the best for the developers but I'm assuming this will ultimately hurt the devs bottom line.

Last edited by Grrizz; Jan 30, 2019 @ 3:52pm

CiD EviL

Jan 30, 2019 @ 3:48pm

For me it's not about price ( my Steam pic that bike and the mods done to it $35,000 ) It's about Credit card security and i have never had any problems with Steam. I am not giving my Credit card details to Epic, EA, GOG, U-Play and Bethesda Launcher

My Dad had his ID stolen

Last edited by CiD EviL; Jan 30, 2019 @ 3:49pm

Morganfell Jan 30, 2019 @ 3:48pm

Originally posted by SedrynTyros:
I just came for the butthurt ... and there sure is a lot of it. And for no good reason. Anyone who wants the game can still buy it, lol.

Except for some people that have em selling out principles in addition to the sticker price is too much.

#10

Angela™ Jan 30, 2019 @ 3:49pm

Originally posted by Timber Wolf:
Originally posted by Vivian H. /pol/nareff:
https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2018/12/steam-now-gives-its-biggest-developers-a-bigger-cut-of-the-revenue/

"In an announcement posted late Friday, Valve said that it would lower its usual 30 percent take to 25 percent for any game's earnings beyond $10 million (including "game packages, DLC, in-game sales, and Community Marketplace game fees"). The platform fee reduces further to 20 percent for earnings that surpass $50 million."

So basically, your game sells well, you pay less. Your game sells very well, you pay even less. No idea if there's another tier above that but there you go.

You are now debating whether or not an 8% difference is worth trading in visibility and platform preference over.

For reference, it would take 833.334 copies sold to reach 50m priced @60 USD. That's complete base price, without 30% subtracted. With would make that number 1.190.477 copies sold. Something very reasonable and likely to happen if your game has enough following and interest.

Umm, lets say a game is being sold for $60 and is only on Steam, and sells 1 million copies, a total of $60 million. using Steam's current system

They get 70% for the first $10 million, so $7 million
Then they get 25% for the next $40 million, so $30 million
Then they get 20% of the remaining $10 million, so $8 Million

That is a grand total of $45 million going to developer out of the $60 million, or 75% total for the developer.

Now lets look at the same exact scenario but with Epic.

They get 88% of the 60 Million = $52.8 Million going to the developer.

That is 7.8 Million extra for the developer, or 17.3% more revenue over the 45 million.

If that is how it works, then yes.

But you can mitigate that extra 9.3% by marketing to a place with a bigger audience and selling more copies.

Ultimately the real goal should be "sell as many copies as possible" and that's just not realistically going to occur if you market on a lemonade stand on the parking lot versus a mall that's been there for almost 2 decades.

#11

Vampire Detective has Metro Exodus

Jan 30, 2019 @ 3:50pm

Originally posted by Timber Wolf:
Originally posted by Vivian H. /pol/nareff:
https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2018/12/steam-now-gives-its-biggest-developers-a-bigger-cut-of-the-revenue/

"In an announcement posted late Friday, Valve said that it would lower its usual 30 percent take to 25 percent for any game's earnings beyond $10 million (including "game packages, DLC, in-game sales, and Community Marketplace game fees"). The platform fee reduces further to 20 percent for earnings that surpass $50 million."

So basically, your game sells well, you pay less. Your game sells very well, you pay even less. No idea if there's another tier above that but there you go.

You are now debating whether or not an 8% difference is worth trading in visibility and platform preference over.

For reference, it would take 833.334 copies sold to reach 50m priced @60 USD. That's complete base price, without 30% subtracted. With would make that number 1.190.477 copies sold. Something very reasonable and likely to happen if your game has enough following and interest.

Umm, lets say a game is being sold for $60 and is only on Steam, and sells 1 million copies, a total of $60 million. using Steam's current system

They get 70% for the first $10 million, so $7 million
Then they get 25% for the next $40 million, so $30 million
Then they get 20% of the remaining $10 million, so $8 Million

That is a grand total of $45 million going to developer out of the $60 million, or 75% total for the developer.

Now lets look at the same exact scenario but with Epic.

They get 88% of the 60 Million = $52.8 Million going to the developer.

That is 7.8 Million extra for the developer, or 17.3% more revenue over the 45 million.

If that happens, you would be correct.

But Steam has a much bigger market, and that comes from the service level it provides. One that I cannot see Epic Games store providing for customers like me.

I cannot picture Metro Exodus selling more copies on Epic than Steam. Not a chance. So that 7.8 Million more diminishes, or doesn't exist.

#12

Finger

Jan 30, 2019 @ 3:50pm

Originally posted by Grrizz:
Yep, basically with the price difference the tipping point that turns revenue in favour of Steam is about 500,000 units which I would expect to easily be achievable for a title like this.

Of course we dont know how many millions Epic paid for the exclusivity deal and we can only speculate on how many sales they will lose from the change of platform and controversy around it both thigs will sway which decision is the best for the developers but I'm assuming this will ultimately hurt the devs bottom line.

I really hope deep silver suffers for this because if sales on pc tank, they can't go back on their deal with epic.

#13

Lightning Jan 30, 2019 @ 3:51pm

Originally posted by Nice guy nat soc:
Originally posted by Grrizz:
Yep, basically with the price difference the tipping point that turns revenue in favour of Steam is about 500,000 units which I would expect to easily be achievable for a title like this.

Of course we dont know how many millions Epic paid for the exclusivity deal and we can only speculate on how many sales they will lose from the change of platform and controversy around it both thigs will sway which decision is the best for the developers but I'm assuming this will ultimately hurt the devs bottom line.
I really hope deep silver suffers for this because if sales on pc tank, they can't go back on their deal with epic.

Same with Ubi sad to say, I had high hopes of Division 2 would be on steam as well but not anymore

#14

TheEvilNoob has Metro Exodus

Jan 30, 2019 @ 3:51pm

Originally posted by Nice guy nat soc:
Originally posted by SedrynTyros:
I just came for the butthurt ... and there sure is a lot of it. And for no good reason. Anyone who wants the game can still buy it, lol.
Reading is pretty hard isn't it.

It seems to be less reading that’s hard for these people and more actually thinking.

#15

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Date Posted: Jan 30, 2019 @ 3:20pm

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