Re-reading the series: Watanagashi questions and impressions

[a_sa_ro]

The following are some questions and impressions I've had while re-reading Watanagashi-hen. I'd love to hear people's thoughts, answers and theories as well.

• We aren't given an exact answer in Meakashi-hen on who was with Keiichi when he was meeting up with whom he thought was Mion pretending to be Shion at Angel Mort, but if I'm mistaken I'll come back and edit this comment after re-reading. From what I could pick up by Shmion's behaviour and other characters' comments afterwards, I'm certain that the time when Shmion brought Keiichi lunch and when she saved him from the young thugs were both Mion. There's only one comment by Shion when she's talking to Keiichi and Rena about the past of Hinamizawa that would put this in doubt. She says something like "Remember when the people of Hinamizawa came to save you from those delinquents?", but it's not unconceivable that Mion told her about it.
  
  
• Their first encounter when Keiichi goes to talk to his dad is the only one where I'm not completely sure. I'm almost convinced that it was Mion, who was embarrassed from dressing with the Angel Mort uniform, but I would find it very random for Shion to call Keiichi and offer him a ticket to the Dessert Festa if she hadn't met him officially yet. Besides, when they're on their "date" after the Dessert Festa, Shion says that she didn't get the chance to properly introduce herself before.
  
  
• Keiichi is such a ♥♥♥♥ to Mion. Not intentionally, but I can't believe he's so dimwitted that he can't see all those comments he makes to Mion and to Shion disguised as Mion that she's like a boy, that he wouldn't trust her because she would do something mean to him and that he would save Shion instead of Mion if both were in danger... that all that won't hurt her. Are teenage boys really that oblivious?
  
  
• There are some weird translations in this chapter. I saw Kumagai being referred to both as Kumagaya and Kumatani. Also, in one of the tips they referred to Kimiyoshi Kiichirou as Yoshiichirou, but in the rest of the novel he was referred to by his real name.
  
  
• Takano's scrapbooks here seem so much more grounded in reality than the ones we see in Tsumihoroboshi. It made me wonder whether she kept a "sane" and many "insane" scrapbooks, or if Ryukishi just dropped the ball.
  
  
• Despite the hatred of the whole village for Satoko, they all seem very worried about her disappearance, as they not only mention Rika missing (which is what you would expect them to), but dwell on Satoko's disappearance as well. Maybe the fact that she disappeared finally gave the villagers the courage to worry openly about Satoko and thus dispelled the "curse" against the Houjous that Rika talked about in the beginning of Minagoroshi. If so, it seems to be a pity that it had to happen so late.
  
  
• We know that Keiichi developed Hinamizawa Syndrome after all the stress he went through, as he died after hallucinating Mion. However, unlike Onikakushi and Tatarigoroshi, his reactions seem completely normal for the situation he's in. So when do you think he started developing the syndrome? Besides his conversation with Ooishi at the end, where there are some indications that his sanity is slipping, I didn't find much. Even if Shion asks him if he's being followed and puts that idea into his head, he never feels paranoid or hears footsteps. The only moments that could be a sign of Keiichi having the syndrome are when he's kneeling at the Furude Shrine after Rika and Satoko go missing, and when he realizes Shion couldn't have told Kimiyoshi about sneaking into the storehouse. In both, after thinking about those things he realizes that more time has passed than he supposed, which reminds me of his trances in Onikakushi and Tatarigoroshi. But besides that, I don't see clear signs of his Hinamizawa Syndrome.

Thanks for reading this all the way through, I know it was long! I would love to hear what everyone else thinks :)

[fllthdcrb]

Originally posted by a_sa_ro:

• We aren't given an exact answer in Meakashi-hen on who was with Keiichi when he was meeting up with whom he thought was Mion pretending to be Shion at Angel Mort, but if I'm mistaken I'll come back and edit this comment after re-reading. From what I could pick up by Shmion's behaviour and other characters' comments afterwards, I'm certain that the time when Shmion brought Keiichi lunch and when she saved him from the young thugs were both Mion. There's only one comment by Shion when she's talking to Keiichi and Rena about the past of Hinamizawa that would put this in doubt. She says something like "Remember when the people of Hinamizawa came to save you from those delinquents?", but it's not unconceivable that Mion told her about it.
  
  
• Their first encounter when Keiichi goes to talk to his dad is the only one where I'm not completely sure. I'm almost convinced that it was Mion, who was embarrassed from dressing with the Angel Mort uniform, but I would find it very random for Shion to call Keiichi and offer him a ticket to the Dessert Festa if she hadn't met him officially yet. Besides, when they're on their "date" after the Dessert Festa, Shion says that she didn't get the chance to properly introduce herself before.

To these I will say: I think perhaps you underestimate how much information the two share. In "Meakashi-hen", Shion points out that after she gets out of that school, they pick up where they left off in their relationship. I don't think we're told everything that they talk about.

Keiichi is such a ♥♥♥♥ to Mion. Not intentionally, but I can't believe he's so dimwitted that he can't see all those comments he makes to Mion and to Shion disguised as Mion that she's like a boy, that he wouldn't trust her because she would do something mean to him and that he would save Shion instead of Mion if both were in danger... that all that won't hurt her. Are teenage boys really that oblivious?

I don't really have an answer to that last question in general. My feeling is, yes. But whatever that answer is, you should know the answer in Keiichi's case. I think that's blindingly obvious. 😆

There are some weird translations in this chapter. I saw Kumagai being referred to both as Kumagaya and Kumatani. Also, in one of the tips they referred to Kimiyoshi Kiichirou as Yoshiichirou, but in the rest of the novel he was referred to by his real name.

The translators apparently don't know how to properly read some of the kanji in those names. "Kumagai" is written as 熊谷, with 谷 read as "gai", but by itself it's more commonly read as "tani". In this and the other case, the alternate reading of the name does exist. They also did that with Ritsuko, calling her "Noriko" in "Tatarigoroshi-hen" (see the TIP "East Round Three").

Of course, it's not obvious just looking at the Japanese text which reading is the correct one. As far as I can find, though, "Kumagai" is the common reading, so they could have at least defaulted to that. There might be official information somewhere that gives the correct reading. I checked on 07th-expansion.net, and it does have romaji for quite a few characters, but not for any of these three.

Takano's scrapbooks here seem so much more grounded in reality than the ones we see in Tsumihoroboshi. It made me wonder whether she kept a "sane" and many "insane" scrapbooks, or if Ryukishi just dropped the ball.

Her methods are quite deliberate. I think she gave different people different scrapbooks on purpose.

Despite the hatred of the whole village for Satoko, they all seem very worried about her disappearance, as they not only mention Rika missing (which is what you would expect them to), but dwell on Satoko's disappearance as well. Maybe the fact that she disappeared finally gave the villagers the courage to worry openly about Satoko and thus dispelled the "curse" against the Houjous that Rika talked about in the beginning of Minagoroshi. If so, it seems to be a pity that it had to happen so late.

Indeed. Well, as we find out in "Minagoroshi-hen", no one actually hates her, they're just so afraid of going against the perceived hatred of others for her that they're unwilling to speak their own opinions, and instead pretend that they, too, hate her. (BTW, this is a real phenomenon in social psychology, called the Abilene paradox[en.wikipedia.org].)

So when do you think he started developing the syndrome?

A few things to consider:

• Look at the first scene (after the prologue and title) in "Onikakushi-hen", where Keiichi is half-asleep on the train. He can hear a girl apologizing incessantly. This is consistent with Hanyuu's behavior.
  
• It's established that a person in L5 is able to hear Hanyuu's voice.
  
• We also know that some people in L5 nevertheless seem perfectly sane, until they aren't, of course. Satoshi and Satoko are both pretty good examples of this. Not sure about Rena's status, but she is fairly well advanced in Hinamizawa syndrome, and has talked about not only hearing but even seeing Oyashiro-sama (although she somehow still doesn't seem to realize he is actually a she, except at the end of "Minagoroshi-hen" and later).

Given these things, it seems clear that Keiichi developed the syndrome even before "Onikakushi-hen" started. Well, that, and in "Matsuribayashi-hen", they flat-out state that he did indeed get infected right after moving to the village, and that in "Onikakushi-hen" ("that one world"), he got sick after leaving to attend a funeral.

Now, the one thing we can observe to consistently make Hinamizawa syndrome worse is stress. And I'd say being almost tortured to death and later stabbed by someone you think is your best friend and almost dying is pretty damn stressful.

[a_sa_ro]

Originally posted by fllthdcrb:

To these I will say: I think perhaps you underestimate how much information the two share. In "Meakashi-hen", Shion points out that after she gets out of that school, they pick up where they left off in their relationship. I don't think we're told everything that they talk about.

True. As I said, I didn't remember much of that part in Meakashi-hen. Thanks for clearing it up :)

I don't really have an answer to that last question in general. My feeling is, yes. But whatever that answer is, you should know the answer in Keiichi's case. I think that's blindingly obvious. 😆

True, it just made me facepalm so badly 😆

The translators apparently don't know how to properly read some of the kanji in those names. "Kumagai" is written as 熊谷, with 谷 read as "gai", but by itself it's more commonly read as "tani". In this and the other case, the alternate reading of the name does exist. They also did that with Ritsuko, calling her "Noriko" in "Tatarigoroshi-hen" (see the TIP "East Round Three").

Of course, it's not obvious just looking at the Japanese text which reading is the correct one. As far as I can find, though, "Kumagai" is the common reading, so they could have at least defaulted to that. There might be official information somewhere that gives the correct reading. I checked on 07th-expansion.net, and it does have romaji for quite a few characters, but not for any of these three.

Actually, I'm currently re-reading Tatarigoroshi-hen and I noticed the Noriko translation! I was precisely wondering whether it was another weird translation or if it was just her last name (I'm assuming Ritsuko was her first name). I don't know anything about Japanese besides "Arigatou" and "Gomenasai", so everything you're saying about the different Kanji readings is very interesting to me!

Indeed. Well, as we find out in "Minagoroshi-hen", no one actually hates her, they're just so afraid of going against the perceived hatred of others for her that they're unwilling to speak their own opinions, and instead pretend that they, too, hate her. (BTW, this is a real phenomenon in social psychology, called the Abilene paradox[en.wikipedia.org].)

It actually reminded me of Matsuribayashi-hen, when they started worrying openly about her because they found out she was sick. At least in that fragment it wasn't too late!

• We also know that some people in L5 nevertheless seem perfectly sane, until they aren't, of course. Satoshi and Satoko are both pretty good examples of this. Not sure about Rena's status, but she is fairly well advanced in Hinamizawa syndrome, and has talked about not only hearing but even seeing Oyashiro-sama (although she somehow still doesn't seem to realize he is actually a she, except at the end of "Minagoroshi-hen" and later).

I always thought that Rena referring to Oyashiro-sama as a "he" was to save the big reveal of Oyashiro-sama's identity for later. If she had referred to Oyashiro-sama as a her, maybe it would have spoiled a little the surprise?

Given these things, it seems clear that Keiichi developed the syndrome even before "Onikakushi-hen" started. Well, that, and in "Matsuribayashi-hen", they flat-out state that he did indeed get infected right after moving to the village, and that in "Onikakushi-hen" ("that one world"), he got sick after leaving to attend a funeral.

Now, the one thing we can observe to consistently make Hinamizawa syndrome worse is stress. And I'd say being almost tortured to death and later stabbed by someone you think is your best friend and almost dying is pretty damn stressful.

I always thought that Keiichi going to the funeral and triggering his syndrome was something that happened exclusively in Onikakushi-hen, so I treated it differently from his trigger in Watanagashi-hen.

That being said, I agree with you: few things can be as stressful as being almost tortured and almost murdered 😆. I actually believe it's quite possible that Mion developed Hinamizawa Syndrome after being kept in the cellar by Shion, but we never get to find out because Shion kills her.

[fllthdcrb]

Originally posted by a_sa_ro:

Actually, I'm currently re-reading Tatarigoroshi-hen and I noticed the Noriko translation! I was precisely wondering whether it was another weird translation or if it was just her last name (I'm assuming Ritsuko was her first name). I don't know anything about Japanese besides "Arigatou" and "Gomenasai", so everything you're saying about the different Kanji readings is very interesting to me!

Japanese is known for being a difficult language to learn, but the most difficult aspect has to be kanji. There are over 2,000 (the jōyō kanji) officially listed for common usage (so they can appear in e.g. a newspaper without accompanying pronunciation and explanations about their meaning), and students have to be taught them over 9 years (1st grade through the end of middle school).

As if memorizing that many isn't enough, it's also complicated by the fact that almost every kanji has more than one reading, often completely different, as some may be native Japanese, and some may be from Chinese (often even from different periods in history). Many, many words are homophones, so they can have multiple kanji read the same way. And finally, given names are often ambiguous as to their reading.

Anyway, Ritsuko's surname is "Mamiya". Nothing to do with "Noriko". As with the others, "nori" is just an another reading of 律 in 律子. Similarly, "ki" and "yoshi" (in "Kiichirou" and "Yoshiichirou") are ways to read the 喜 in 喜一郎.

I always thought that Rena referring to Oyashiro-sama as a "he" was to save the big reveal of Oyashiro-sama's identity for later. If she had referred to Oyashiro-sama as a her, maybe it would have spoiled a little the surprise?

That's, of course, an external reason. But one might wish for an internal one, i.e. why does she perceive Hanyuu as male? It's probably heavily influenced by Oyashiro-sama being traditionally assumed to be male.

I always thought that Keiichi going to the funeral and triggering his syndrome was something that happened exclusively in Onikakushi-hen

Well, yes, that's why I included the quote about "that one world", because that apparently only happened in that world. But it shows how easily it escalated for him, even from a seemingly mundane event.

[a_sa_ro]

Originally posted by fllthdcrb:

That's, of course, an external reason. But one might wish for an internal one, i.e. why does she perceive Hanyuu as male? It's probably heavily influenced by Oyashiro-sama being traditionally assumed to be male.

Internally, that may have a lot to do with why she perceives Oyashiro-sama as female. But that begs the question: if Keiichi perceives the presence that follows him and apologizes as a girl, why wouldn't Rena perceive it the same way?
As I said before, I don't know any Japanese so this is baseless, but is it possible in Japanese to refer as someone with a "vague" pronoun that doesn't let people know whether it's male or female? In my mother tongue, you can use verbs without using nouns as long as there is some previous context, so you could say "He felt someone behind him" and then go on to describe that someone's actions without alluding to their gender. Our possessive pronouns are also very vague, so instead of using "his" and "her" we use the same word, therefore you don't know if they're talking about a male or a female unless you know the context. If this can happen in Japanese as well, then Rena may be referring to Oyashiro-sama in a gender-vague manner, but as that's impossible in English, the translation went for the male form.
Of course, this is just baseless speculation, so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

Well, yes, that's why I included the quote about "that one world", because that apparently only happened in that world. But it shows how easily it escalated for him, even from a seemingly mundane event.

Poor Keiichi. He has got to be the unluckiest person in the world. His parents were very stressed out with his father's job difficulties, and yet they don't develop a thing.

[fllthdcrb]

Originally posted by a_sa_ro:

As I said before, I don't know any Japanese so this is baseless, but is it possible in Japanese to refer as someone with a "vague" pronoun that doesn't let people know whether it's male or female? In my mother tongue, you can use verbs without using nouns as long as there is some previous context, so you could say "He felt someone behind him" and then go on to describe that someone's actions without alluding to their gender. Our possessive pronouns are also very vague, so instead of using "his" and "her" we use the same word, therefore you don't know if they're talking about a male or a female unless you know the context. If this can happen in Japanese as well, then Rena may be referring to Oyashiro-sama in a gender-vague manner, but as that's impossible in English, the translation went for the male form.
Of course, this is just baseless speculation, so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

No, you know what? I just looked over the Japanese text, and it turns out you're correct, at least as far as I can see (I didn't check it exhaustively, though). I don't know why I didn't think of it in this case. Japanese is quite flexible about what you choose to include in a sentence. So it's typical to leave out everything that can be inferred from context, especially nouns and pronouns. In this case, she is actually just using either the name or nothing to refer to Oyashiro-sama. An example (have to find one that's easy for me to understand, since I'm not fluent):

だけどオヤシロさまは許すチャンスをくれた。

(from "Tsumihoroboshi-hen", chapter 13). Which means, roughly,

But Oyashiro-sama gave [me] a chance at forgiveness.

But was translated as,

But he gave me a chance.

So, thanks for making me aware of this.

Poor Keiichi. He has got to be the unluckiest person in the world. His parents were very stressed out with his father's job difficulties, and yet they don't develop a thing.

Yeah, the syndrome is all over the place. Mion similarly almost never seems to get sick (though the times her sister kidnaps and locks her up could be exceptions).

[a_sa_ro]

Originally posted by fllthdcrb:

No, you know what? I just looked over the Japanese text, and it turns out you're correct, at least as far as I can see (I didn't check it exhaustively, though). I don't know why I didn't think of it in this case. Japanese is quite flexible about what you choose to include in a sentence. So it's typical to leave out everything that can be inferred from context, especially nouns and pronouns. In this case, she is actually just using either the name or nothing to refer to Oyashiro-sama. An example (have to find one that's easy for me to understand, since I'm not fluent):

だけどオヤシロさまは許すチャンスをくれた。

(from "Tsumihoroboshi-hen", chapter 13). Which means, roughly,

But Oyashiro-sama gave [me] a chance at forgiveness.

But was translated as,

But he gave me a chance.

So, thanks for making me aware of this.

That's very interesting! Languages are very awesome. Thanks to you for confirming it!