Poor F2P model holding a great TCG back?

[Player09]

So I've dumped a few hundred into hex over the last few years and gave it a rest for awhile. I come back to see how the game is doing I have to say, the f2p model is still very poor. Having to grind gold for a week, then find someone to trade with for currency to get a draft entry is more like a job than anything most people would want to do for fun.

The player count on steam is usually under 500 from what I've seen, and I'm bettign there isn't a huge number outside of that playing the game. Even with the new set release there wasn't that much of a spike and honestly when I look at that I am in no way encouraged to spend money on the new set.

The need to make the F2P model more friendly. It has fantastic mechanics, decent art, and probably the worst F2P system I've seen in any TCG/CCG release in the last couple years. Right now Eternal has probably the best F2P model I have seen in the genre. You can grind for a draft entry every couple days through casual play. Hex needs to do something similar.

As is, I'm not putting any more into Hex. It's not worth putting money into something I see as having one foot in the grave already. And grinding gold to trade for plat to buy some pack to get a draft entry.. no thianks.

Hex, you need to rework your f2p model, badly. Anyone starting out is going to take one look at the paywall and move on to other games.

[Kyutaru]

The game cannot adjust the F2P model without murdering itself. I'm really tired of explaining this but here's one more go at it.

The game and kickstarter were based around the idea of cards with REAL VALUE. An economy that functions as though we are dealing with physical trading cards that we can quickly pass to each other digitally in exchange for wealth. The idea was that investing in existing CCGs was anti-consumer because the cards were valueless. Anything you paid for Hearthstone or other card games was lost to the void. Magic Online was different yet the UI and attention from Wizards was poor, typical problems from an ownership not passionately invested in quality video games. Along comes HEX and it offers the end to that dilemma with a full on campaign mode and (as of yet unreleased) multiplayer MMO features.

Nerfing the pay model to something easier to access would mean giving away cards at a higher rate and tanking the value of the purchased ones. We're six sets into the game with thousands of dollars invested by some. Most of them would become notably and understandably upset if a patch came around that cut the value of their collection in half or worse. Making it so you can grind for legendaries willie nillie through some sort of enchanting dust system or other F2P device would make purchased legendaries lose trade value. Supply and Demand.

At this point you have to wonder how upset players might react. Say by abandoning the game that robbed them? Given that said players are the ones financially supporting the existence of the game while free players would still be leeching off the friendlier model, triggering a mass extinction of the paying community would be ill-advised.


Besides, PVP was never free. The Campaign mode was what was advertised as free, and it is. You get everything you need from grinding the campaign and arena to play the campaign. The fact that you can grind your way into PVP is a bonus. PVP however has always been of the pay to get in market share. Excellent grinders and draft players can sustain themselves indefinitely though.

[Player09]

I understand the point you are getting at. I also noticed how the value of older cards tanked after they rotated out. I am not onboard with the 'real value' argument though. I have $1000s in MTG cards, ones I can touch and feel. Or burn in a fire if I ever need to keep warm I guess. Either way, those paper ones are the only cards that IMO have value.

I respect your opinion on it, I just don't think Hex is doing itself any favors as far as expanding the player base and supporting the longevity of the game. I enjoy Hex, I just don't enjoy it enough to spend the same amount of money on a digital pack of cards when I could buy the same pack and have it collect dust in my collection.

I hope the game endures, it's one of the better games as far as mechanics go. I'll check in again after more pve content launches. There's no way I'm dropping another $200 just to get in on the lastest format though.

Good luck to those that do.

[Gregangel]

The PvP of Hex is by essence not a f2p model and it will never be.
In contrary to what you believe the game would die... if I became more f2p friendly.

Also you should not be worry about the longevity of the game. Hex gain constantly new players and the game is more and more popular among the players it really target : an older audience who grew up with Magic looking for a real TCG with a economy, ready to put money in it without even blinking.

With set 7 the game also breack its activity record.
The economic model is built to sustain a player Base which is different than the one you find in games like Eternal you mentioned.

[Kyutaru]

Originally posted by Player09:

I understand the point you are getting at. I also noticed how the value of older cards tanked after they rotated out. I am not onboard with the 'real value' argument though. I have $1000s in MTG cards, ones I can touch and feel. Or burn in a fire if I ever need to keep warm I guess. Either way, those paper ones are the only cards that IMO have value.

That's your stance but Bitcoins have real value and are traded regularly. CounterStrike:GO had a big scandal over skins and casinos because the skins have real world value in the hundreds of dollars range. The Steam marketplace is full of games and items being traded digitally that likewise have value, something I would have liked to see HEX participate in.

Digital products were sold regularly on ebay for ages before they tightened up the rules. You could buy game accounts, gold, in-game items, etc. It makes perfect sense to us how cards can maintain value without physicality. In fact, most of your money is in a bank, not under your mattress. It has no physical characteristics to begin with. There aren't enough physical dollars for the entire USA to cash out from their bank. We're quite used to the concept of digital value.

Originally posted by Player09:

I respect your opinion on it, I just don't think Hex is doing itself any favors as far as expanding the player base and supporting the longevity of the game. I enjoy Hex, I just don't enjoy it enough to spend the same amount of money on a digital pack of cards when I could buy the same pack and have it collect dust in my collection.

That's the same problem we have with other digital card games. Why in god's name would I spend money on Eternal? Or Hearthstone? Or Shadowverse? Or any CCG where my money is going straight into a void? Yet those games depend on their paying playerbase to thrive, there's no such thing as a free game. To top it off, if we're paying willingly on HEX, we most likely aren't interested in free grinding for hundreds of hours to begin with so any other game we'd still be paying for cards. We don't want the free model ourselves, we want to pay developers to build the games we enjoy and compensate them fairly for it. We're not broke and penniless no life grinders and prefer this model because it's a fair exchange of goods and services. Hard to attract payers to a game like Eternal where card value is immediately worthless.

Other CCGs also promote buyer's remorse if you don't get what you want. In HEX, you can easily sell your old deck to buy a new one. Your collection value constantly increases and you can use it to sustain the latest cards. Yet other CCGs start you over from scratch when that new expansion comes out. Start grinding.

Originally posted by Player09:

I hope the game endures, it's one of the better games as far as mechanics go. I'll check in again after more pve content launches. There's no way I'm dropping another $200 just to get in on the lastest format though.

Good luck to those that do.

Then I recommend getting good at drafting and economics because you can sustain yourself by "going infinite" on drafts, selling your rewards and using the packs to fuel more drafts. You can get all the cards you want that way by spam alone. Playing HEX is only expensive if you want to keep large collections of cards instead of focus on particular cards. But you're already used to that with Magic since you have thousands worth. We've had a number of players quit HEX and they sell off their collections when they do, obtaining real world PayPal transfers for them.

If we knew who you were in game, we might be able to assist with better tips and cards. As far as I can tell, you're the one who complained about RNG shuffling when the game was identical to MTG and even self-proclaimed that you were the reason for the shuffler changes when that's been an ongoing topic for over a year. The HEX forum threads are what caused it, not the Steam boards that they completely ignore. Or you can choose to leave HEX as you've determined it's not really for you. You're focused on the free to play model which is strictly meant for the Campaign and are trying to play a card game for free without investments. No one said that would be easy. Like with the Hardcore vs Casual argument in RPGs, different games for different desires.

Enjoy Eternal.

Or don't since it seems you have a problem with that *rainbows and butterflys* game as well.

[Gregangel]

I would even say Eternal don't have a large enough player Base to sustain it's f2p model yet. If the game don't grow more the game will die long before Hex.

Because Hex today have a player Base large enough to sustain it's non f2p model. Yes the dev said it themselves : they did not reach their initial goal yet and they expect more players. But as today the game make money and is still growing not shrinking.
If you play a lot of Hex like me you would see the last couple week a lots of players you have never seen before.

Set 6 is a huge success for the game. Very promising for its future

[Player09]

Originally posted by Kyutaru:

Originally posted by Player09:

I understand the point you are getting at. I also noticed how the value of older cards tanked after they rotated out. I am not onboard with the 'real value' argument though. I have $1000s in MTG cards, ones I can touch and feel. Or burn in a fire if I ever need to keep warm I guess. Either way, those paper ones are the only cards that IMO have value.

That's your stance but Bitcoins have real value and are traded regularly. CounterStrike:GO had a big scandal over skins and casinos because the skins have real world value in the hundreds of dollars range. The Steam marketplace is full of games and items being traded digitally that likewise have value, something I would have liked to see HEX participate in.

Digital products were sold regularly on ebay for ages before they tightened up the rules. You could buy game accounts, gold, in-game items, etc. It makes perfect sense to us how cards can maintain value without physicality. In fact, most of your money is in a bank, not under your mattress. It has no physical characteristics to begin with. There aren't enough physical dollars for the entire USA to cash out from their bank. We're quite used to the concept of digital value.

Originally posted by Player09:

I respect your opinion on it, I just don't think Hex is doing itself any favors as far as expanding the player base and supporting the longevity of the game. I enjoy Hex, I just don't enjoy it enough to spend the same amount of money on a digital pack of cards when I could buy the same pack and have it collect dust in my collection.

That's the same problem we have with other digital card games. Why in god's name would I spend money on Eternal? Or Hearthstone? Or Shadowverse? Or any CCG where my money is going straight into a void? Yet those games depend on their paying playerbase to thrive, there's no such thing as a free game. To top it off, if we're paying willingly on HEX, we most likely aren't interested in free grinding for hundreds of hours to begin with so any other game we'd still be paying for cards. We don't want the free model ourselves, we want to pay developers to build the games we enjoy and compensate them fairly for it. We're not broke and penniless no life grinders and prefer this model because it's a fair exchange of goods and services. Hard to attract payers to a game like Eternal where card value is immediately worthless.

Other CCGs also promote buyer's remorse if you don't get what you want. In HEX, you can easily sell your old deck to buy a new one. Your collection value constantly increases and you can use it to sustain the latest cards. Yet other CCGs start you over from scratch when that new expansion comes out. Start grinding.

Originally posted by Player09:

I hope the game endures, it's one of the better games as far as mechanics go. I'll check in again after more pve content launches. There's no way I'm dropping another $200 just to get in on the lastest format though.

Good luck to those that do.

Then I recommend getting good at drafting and economics because you can sustain yourself by "going infinite" on drafts, selling your rewards and using the packs to fuel more drafts. You can get all the cards you want that way by spam alone. Playing HEX is only expensive if you want to keep large collections of cards instead of focus on particular cards. But you're already used to that with Magic since you have thousands worth. We've had a number of players quit HEX and they sell off their collections when they do, obtaining real world PayPal transfers for them.

If we knew who you were in game, we might be able to assist with better tips and cards. As far as I can tell, you're the one who complained about RNG shuffling when the game was identical to MTG and even self-proclaimed that you were the reason for the shuffler changes when that's been an ongoing topic for over a year. The HEX forum threads are what caused it, not the Steam boards that they completely ignore. Or you can choose to leave HEX as you've determined it's not really for you. You're focused on the free to play model which is strictly meant for the Campaign and are trying to play a card game for free without investments. No one said that would be easy. Like with the Hardcore vs Casual argument in RPGs, different games for different desires.

Enjoy Eternal.

Or don't since it seems you have a problem with that *rainbows and butterflys* game as well.

Your an idiot. I didn't claim to have caused the change to the shuffler. I saw an issue with it, posted on it, and the shuffler changed. You have trouble reading?

You also sound like a RMT so obviously you wouldn't want a more F2P friendly model. It's funny how you take this post and run off to other forums though. What are you, a 10 year old?

Just like Eternals this forum has bags of **** like you that take any discussion and make a crusade out of it. Have fun with your stagnating game and trying to convince people it's still going strong. Even getting a draft to fire without a new set hype to spike the player count takes forever. But no... everythings doing fine, just fine. lmao.

[Player09]

As further support to pop your inflated player base numbers and show just how many cockroach RMT and bots exist in Hex, median playtime for people in hex is 1 minute 48 seconds.

Not even enough time to play a match. So yeah.. GG.

[Gregangel]

There are really weird people on steam...

[Shard]

Didn't read everything, but I do believe HEX should be just a little bit generous. Just a little. I believe it's possible to make without noticable value decrease of collections.
For example, account leveling rewards:
2 chests...really? Give at least 2 rare ones.
3 random cards (commons or uncommons) - seriously?
Give at least a random rare. 90% it would be a worthless rare, but it's just much more exciting.
Draft: 1st game - win, 2nd game loss, 3d game loss - you are dissapointed that you spent time playing not a good deck, your first game gave you some hope, but two other guys kicked your ass, and after that you get nothing, and you are at -100 plat. Give some random stuff - dust\random cheap cards\gold. Why not?

[Gregangel]

Account levelling rewards are worth more than $200 of stuff.
This seem to be the most valuable reward pool you can get in a cards games to me.

[Kyutaru]

Originally posted by Lord Abare:

The money arguments using Counter Strike GO and other card games like Shadowverse holds no water because the difference is cards aren't being sold for $30 plus on their game. People spend a dollar here, a dollar there. Pixels are not worth $30 for a single card. Absolutely insane.

Yep, calling this bull out. Shadowverse is $80 per 50 packs, 400 cards, with 105 cards in a set and triples needed. Coupled with the rarity system, it's not a negligible amount to collect a set. You could always grind.... but ♥♥♥♥ that. Fair exchange for goods and services beats gold grinds any day.

You and the rest who want to change the model don't understand that developers follow the money. There's money in keeping the pay players happy. Kickstarter was what funded and created HEX, the original investors paid for the game that was promised to be a certain and specific way. There's no money in switching to free to play. It would even LOSE them money. It would destroy card value and lose all their existing followers. Betraying the investors is a great way to drive away a game's only source of income. No game can survive that and HEX certainly doesn't have billions saved up like Blizzard to recover from short term losses. Which might be why you're so desperate to push HEX in this direction. Thinking of trying to kill off the competition are we?

With your position on HEX made clear yet your persistent presence despite it, it's clear to anyone with two or more brain cells that your only purpose in being here is to attempt to steal away members of other card games to fuel your own. Yes yes, I'm sure some bollocks is next to follow from you in jest of this statement but the conversation's done.

Have fun elsewhere. We're having it here. :P

[Shard]

Originally posted by Gregangel:

Account levelling rewards are worth more than $200 of stuff.
This seem to be the most valuable reward pool you can get in a cards games to me.

My friend, you seem to be manipulating. There are great rewards only for levels around 75th and 100th. They cost a lot yeah, but let's be honest, they lose value very quickly as more and more players climb up to those levels (we can check how prices drop on third party sites), and as time goes by they will cost not much more than their non-AA prototypes. Also there should be just something in between, not nonsense chests, tiny ammounts of gold and commons. Tournament tickets are amzing, though.

[Gregangel]

Originally posted by Shard:

Originally posted by Gregangel:

Account levelling rewards are worth more than $200 of stuff.
This seem to be the most valuable reward pool you can get in a cards games to me.

My friend, you seem to be manipulating. There are great rewards only for levels around 75th and 100th. They cost a lot yeah, but let's be honest, they lose value very quickly as more and more players climb up to those levels (we can check how prices drop on third party sites), and as time goes by they will cost not much more than their non-AA prototypes. Also there should be just something in between, not nonsense chests, tiny ammounts of gold and commons. Tournament tickets are amzing, though.

You don't get valuable stuff without the necessairy work to get it.
Today only a handfull of players reached level 100. The value of thes cards are not even close to drop. There are the most rare items in the entire game for a very long time. If you put your mind to grind the level account the value you will get per minut played exceed what you can get in any others cards games. Pure fact

$200 is basicly all you need to play the game for free during 2 to 3 years if you use your plat wisely and efficiently.

And rewarding thes AA at the end of the level account, is the only right way to give players f2p fuel without undermine any cards collection value.

(btw, at certain rank you get 3 random cards, thats cards can be rare or legendary at a equivalent rate you find in pack)

[Shard]

Originally posted by Gregangel:

Originally posted by Shard:

My friend, you seem to be manipulating. There are great rewards only for levels around 75th and 100th. They cost a lot yeah, but let's be honest, they lose value very quickly as more and more players climb up to those levels (we can check how prices drop on third party sites), and as time goes by they will cost not much more than their non-AA prototypes. Also there should be just something in between, not nonsense chests, tiny ammounts of gold and commons. Tournament tickets are amzing, though.

You don't get valuable stuff without the necessairy work to get it.
Today only a handfull of players reached level 100. The value of thes cards are not even close to drop. There are the most rare items in the entire game for a very long time. If you put your mind to grind the level account the value you will get per minut played exceed what you can get in any others cards games. Pure fact

$200 is basicly all you need to play the game for free during 2 to 3 years if you use your plat wisely and efficiently.

And rewarding thes AA at the end of the level account, is the only right way to give players f2p fuel without undermine any cards collection value.

(btw, at certain rank you get 3 random cards, thats cards can be rare or legendary at a equivalent rate you find in pack)

How long does it take to get there? 6 months, or more? And for a f2p player - eternity?
I trew in 160-180$ during almost three years of playing HEX, and I'm OK with the game, but new players experience isn't the best possible, also there should be less grinding for f2p players, otherwise the playerbase will not increase in any observed future. Maybe game doesn't need more players and developers like to get tons of negative reviews on Steam...but that's kinda strange.

[Gregangel]

You know it is almost what they want even if this sound strange.

What the CEO said about steam review ? He said something like that : if we disregard the bad review caused by the economic model of the game, the game is overall well received on steam

That means: well ok some don't like we are not a f2p CCG a la Hearthstone but we don't care: it is not the game we want to do...

The goal about player base is clearly not quantityet but quality. They target a specific audience with good income who are OK to pay (sometime a lot) to play the game and who are absolutely not interested in the f2p grind the game still allow.

So yes the game will never get a player base as large as the most successful f2p CCG out there (without even talking about Hearthstone )
But they are 100% ok with that. Most of the players who love the game too and they are not worried about the lifespan of the game either.