How are you supposed to play this?

[Kennedy]

If 4 cheese farms and 4 hunters aren't enough for 20 people. Why are my cows dying every 2 minutes and why is everything so slow? The wood guys are slow walking to the storage, while we are in a war, don't have any soldiers and no bows either...

Everything takes so much resources, but it takes so long to restock them. Gameplay is like 90% waiting for something to finish.

[Infinitysuns |✨]

Really depends on the scenario. Which map are you playing? Generally speaking, focusing on bread will net you the most food. Also, wood is everything in this game, since almost all buildings are built using that resource. Earlier in the game you should put down as many woodcutters as your population can sustain. That way you'll get enough wood for all those bakeries and mills and farms. Remember to put the woodcutters as close to the trees as possible. Sell all the stuff you don't need and buy more wood so you get a strong economy as early as possible. Later when you have tons of bread you can put your rations on double and sell for even more gold, then build those inns and get the ale bonus as well. If you do things right you can easily cap your tax out near max.

Farms are of course very vulnerable to begin with so you should be protecting them anyway, but dairy and apple farms are ultimately not really that good. Dairy farms are particularly vulnerable because they stop functioning properly not only if the farmer dies, but also if the cows die. Apple farms take up too much space. Dairy farms' advantage is that they can be put on highland, but otherwise save up your wood for wheat farms instead. When you eventually get a large population (we're talking 100+ or so) the food consumption will be so great that any variety multiplier you get from apple, cheese and meat will be very difficult to maintain, simply because bread production is so good in this game and completely dwarfs all other food types at high consumption levels.

Lastly cruelty buildings are much better than the positive ones. They increase your production multiplier by something like 1.5x, I think. Don't worry too much about the combat penalty for troops because you'll simply be replacing them faster as you lose them, as you're building more weapons anyway. This game gets a lot more fun when you start treating your troops as expendable.

[Kennedy]

I'm currently playing the missions and that's my first time playing Stronghold. Now, I have to protect my castle against the troops of the first boss character, I guess. He's called the rat, but I play in German, so the name could be different.
In that mission, I got the stone mines and have to use stone walls for the first time. I haven't unlocked markets etc. yet.

I think I'll go with bread again. The others take less resources, but that's probably why they aren't that effective. The problem is, that I never have enough time to build up an army and everything else to defend my castle, before the first wave arrives, because everything takes so long.

[Infinitysuns |✨]

In that case, set down 1 or 2 fletchers as early as possible (alongside the woodcutters and bread buildings, ofc) and don't worry about building other unit types than archers. The Rat only sends lightly armoured troops early in the game, so you'll be safe just massing archers in a strategic spot. You might not even have to build many walls or surround the keep (unless that's a victory requirement). That way you don't have to build many quarries and save even more wood.

Also, distance is another very important factor. Are you building buildings as close to their storage/resource points as possible? Woodcutters go near forests, fletchers go near armoury, armoury goes (relatively) close to the stockpile, same with mills and bakers, etc.

One more thing, the optimal ratio between wheat farms, mills, and bakeries IIRC is 3:1:8, again varying depending on distance.

[Rakso]

Apple farms are the best food type. That's why they're the latest available to build in the campaign. Sickly effective and really cheap, allow for very fast growth whole game if the apples are being sold. Also allow quick high taxes. Bread is expensive and requires time to start working. It's good only for split consumption between apple and bread to cause your peasants to generate more apple. The key difference between apple orchards eco and bread eco is the space, but it doesn't really matter since most of the maps have a whole lot of space.

[Infinitysuns |✨]

Guess we'll just have to disagree there. Consider a situation like this:

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=499030556

Here you can see my population is about 300 (even reached 500+ at one point). There's simply no way apple orchards could handle that kind of food consumption at double.

Or here, for Stronghold 1:

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1653843870

Notice that I can fit ~60 bakeries in the same space it takes to put in ~20 apple farms, at best. Bakers produce 5 loaves each while apple farmers produce 3 baskets. With a fear factor of 5 that translates to around 450 loaves of bread in the same time it takes to produce 90 apple baskets.

Or for a more realistic campaign example, here's mission 4 on very hard:
(I know that that mission only allows bread production, but I'm just showing it's completely doable and doable very well, even on very hard)

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1653857343

Note there are something like 50 archers on that gatehouse, I used the trick which allows you to spam move units onto walls.

Of course you do need some farms other than wheat to start. I do agree that apple farms can be good in the campaign depending on the situation, and when you're starting the map, 5 wood is an easy way to make some quick food. But the goal should be transition to bread as the main food if you're going for a larger population, with apple as a backup food source only if necessary. Also, keep in mind that if invasions are happening, it's harder to defend more farms if they're spread over a larger area.

[Rakso]

Nope. It isn't hard to defend at all alot of space, it's a matter of skill... Atleast multiplayer perhaps, because there's a range from keep limit for towers and walls. On singleplayer you can build walls and towers wherever, just except for the signpost, which makes any mission funny even on very hard difficulties.
I'll upload examples tomorrow(campaign screenshots). The 2nd screenshot is invalid. Those bakeries are effectively way worse than the apple orchards, beacuse the bakers must walk a really crazy long distances to the stockpile, so the argument makes no sense at all, and thanks God you mixed the food kinds to generate more bread this way by splitting rations between 4 digits, otherwise with bread-only you would starve super easy. The bakeries are so damn far away from the stockpile that they would cause themselfs to starve than feed themselfs + other citiziens.
500 population? That's singleplayer nerdy stuff. Those economies aren't even effective at anything. It's just exploit. Population wasted clearly into nothing. Just more and more workers that can't be able to feed themselfs beacuse of the crazy long stockpile distances. It clearly isn't set on double rations. Otherwise it would destroy itself in a matter of pure seconds, unless so much popularity +, that -8 granary does nothing on it.

Apple orchard are way better, beacuse the workers:

1. Can work on other orchards than their own, usually they do so on the closest to the granary ones if everything is build up properly in the right order and timing. It's called blooming placement, check it out on my video:
https://youtu.be/PaR_N6MaBuc
2. Don't need to rest or walk to stockpile, stand in front of their building etc. but are in focus on an endless circle of gathering without resting at all, if the seasons were build up order correctly as above.
3. The building is really cheap, doesn't take up stockpile space, so that workshops can be build instead of bakeries, which would pointlessly take up the precious space around the stockpile to... Just do more food. Lmao
4. Bread is really really expensive. The cost makes it not worth it, unless just for a very little in order to split the rations by /2 between bread and apple in order to make the orchards work even more purely effective. 5 apple to sell is 20 gold, and one basket is 4, meaning that orchards are totally free in cost, beacuse we receive the auto-refund 5 wood purchase-cost-on-them on the first time the orchard worker drop anything on the granary.

Hmmm, don't renember if there was anything else. I'm tired. I'll let You know most of it tomorrow... Maybe.
Concluding: bread is just a singleplayer crap, it has nothing to do about: 1. Effectiveness by trials-and-distances 2. Cost-to-effectiveness 3. Space taken(oh look, actually 1 wheat farm, 1 mill and 1 bakery take up same space as 1 apple farm, but costs 40 wood more + requires stockpile, which is the biggest coin of it. Apple do not need the stock).

Good night Stronghold fellow! :D

PS: I'm really sorry for my messy reply style. Enormous apologies, but is really late. I'm a very busy man nowadays, so I was certain I'll forget about it as soon I was so dump to open up the steam notification right now, so that's the reason I'm replying in this moment. Otherwise I'd certaintly forget about the post and do nothing about it. :)

[Infinitysuns |✨]

Ok, I see what you mean and don't necessarily disagree with you, but with all due respect your point about multiplayer is invalid because OP is referring to single-player anyway and is new (Yes "nerdy" haha. Still). Of course in multiplayer you're playing against a human who can easily see the logic behind what you're doing, so yes in that case I would agree with you.

In regards to your point about the second screenshot, that simply isn't true - I do have it set to double rations (and is sustainable). If you don't believe me then I don't know how else to prove it to you besides sending you my savefile.

Anyway, the point wasn't about the distance between the stockpile and the bakers (Yes, I recognize that I put them a little far away, again not the point). It was to demonstrate that the output of food per tile is greater than that of the apples. (I know, not really a relevant point in multiplayer, where the goal is to beat the other player, not fulfill victory condition.) Yes, the mill + wheat farm + bakery may take up as much space as 1 apple farm, but the bread production ends up being greater per tile. Against humans in multiplayer, obviously the bread production system is easier to attack, but against AI the AI really isn't smart enough to know the difference.

Lastly wood is never really a problem, or hasn't ever been a problem with me. I put down a lot of woodcutters to begin with (which is what most people do in SHC no rush 10/20 multiplayer). I guess it might be a difference in the way we play, between you and me, but starving is not a problem for me either - actually I almost always produce too much bread (fills up granary very fast) and have to sell. The extra gold and large population helps me build armies much faster. Again, don't get me wrong, I think apple farms are good in the right situation, and certainly in multiplayer.

TL;DR Depends on context. You're probably right if it works for your apple playstyle, I used to solely run bakeries in SHC competitive multiplayer (yes, with some orchards to split early on) and that worked fine for me as well. And even then, remember that the game isn't just multiplayer - some people enjoy playing custom scenarios, I'm more of a mapmaker myself than multiplayer player.

Good night to you too!

[Infinitysuns |✨]

Just took a look at your video and I can definitely agree that apples are best on that specific map in multiplayer, particularly if you are going to rush your opponent. But consider that you're basically mainly building two things (apples and bows) and that isn't always the best in singleplayer, particularly on a map with limited space, with victory conditions that might require you to diversify your economy.

Would like to hear your opinion for this tourney map though, I made this one a couple years ago for SHC. Would apples or bread work better here, or on a map with similar restricted space?

http://stronghold.heavengames.com/downloads/showfile.php?fileid=6928

[Rakso]

lol It's SH1 topic no SHC. Ok, I'll keep it open and let You know once I'll have free time for a larger reply. Or just send me a steam friend request. Whatever.

[Infinitysuns |✨]

OK fine, lol. But you know the two games are close enough. Also I'm not saying you're wrong at all, I think you're right. Respond whenever you want and take care.