[SPOILER] actual Theory on Umineko

[Sergent H]

I read Umineko several times and check lots of things forum; videos etc...

Iwould like to know what is the actual theory accepted as reponse to umineko? To see if it's change since befoire

Don't forget to put spoiler band

[Smeckledorf]

SergeantH, I will have to get back to you on your thoughts about the culprit. However, I think I remember episode 6 disproving Rosa as a sole culprit. 07 said only one out of 1000 would understand it because of how the answer arc was written. Knowing the mystery is NOT understanding the story... that's 100% what the answer arc is about. I am not saying Rosa is not a possible murderer, but she is not Beatrice. Also, bodies/corpses not actually being bodies/corpses is a major plot point; I am assuming you read episode 6?

[Sergent H]

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย Smeckledorf:

SergeantH, I will have to get back to you on your thoughts about the culprit. However, I think I remember episode 6 disproving Rosa as a sole culprit. 07 said only one out of 1000 would understand it because of how the answer arc was written. Knowing the mystery is NOT understanding the story... that's 100% what the answer arc is about. I am not saying Rosa is not a possible murderer, but she is not Beatrice. Also, bodies/corpses not actually being bodies/corpses is a major plot point; I am assuming you read episode 6?

I tottaly agree; Rosa isn't the sole culprit for me. This game is special since Erika murdered on her own, which cannot be what happened in "reality". For me the whole EP6 is made to "prove" the shkannon theory by using the trick to save Battler by kannon and make him "disappear".
Ofc i read all several time; what is your point? i'm intrigued.

[trainerstar3]

I really encourage you, and everybody, to look completly thr video of knownomore on youtube about umineko.

...I'm just going to leave this here.

https://www.reddit.com/r/visualnovels/comments/1u73xm/umineko_debatediscussion_spoilers_inside/?st=iw6k5guk&sh=e0d51dac

http://forums.fuwanovel.net/topic/9950-umineko-no-naku-koro-ni-goat-headquarters-spoilers/?page=1

[Sergent H]

trainerstar3; thanks you for these links, i enjoyed read it.

However i still look the same thing; those with RosaTrice tend to use logic and red/element to justify their theory and Shkannon theorist use element based on "emotion"(?) Specially the main trader who sort during an answer "Red truth is meaningless. Red truth alone will get you no where." I can't agree with that

[trainerstar3]

Took me a while but i managed to find these links:

http://heartofthegoldenwitch.tumblr.com/post/83637427708/the-number-of-people-on-rokkenjima
http://heartofthegoldenwitch.tumblr.com/post/94997525645/against-rosatrice-part-i
http://heartofthegoldenwitch.tumblr.com/post/95641724845/against-rosatrice-part-ii

PS: "Know that for reasoning to be possible, a trusting relationship is required."- Cornelia, ??? of the Fifth Game, End of The Golden Witch

Red truth can have meaning,but not alone. Battler didn't become the Golden Sorcerer with red alone.

PPS: Some of my favorite discussions from /r/visualnovels:

https://www.reddit.com/r/visualnovels/comments/3q0cck/spoilers_weekly_thread_71_umineko_no_naku_koro_ni/?st=iw9gwp45&sh=ce0e17a9
https://www.reddit.com/r/visualnovels/comments/2i8ngw/spoilers_weekly_thread_20_umineko_no_naku_koro_ni/?st=iw9gwq47&sh=c3c93f0c
https://www.reddit.com/r/visualnovels/comments/4e5krz/umineko_and_the_stages_of_grief/?st=iw9gwrft&sh=32438ee1
https://www.reddit.com/r/visualnovels/comments/376iep/finished_umineko_eps_18_ps3_patch_reread_opinions/?st=iw9gwwat&sh=7994d10b
https://www.reddit.com/r/visualnovels/comments/31f0zi/umineko_spoilers_umineko_and_believing_in_magic/?st=iw9gwy4i&sh=1e8c8e2e
(There's a lot of discussion when those kind of threads open if you didn't notice.)

In case you were wondering, this is my theory: http://marrten.deviantart.com/art/The-Good-End-177668845

[Dr. Novelle]

Rosatrice may technically work if you go by the red truth alone; however, if you only listen to what the red says, the white may as well not exist. Virtually every fantasy scene is meant to show an aspect of Yasu's character and her predicament. Even the long, drawn out scenes that seem pointless on an initial run, such as Shkannon's relationship woes in episode 2, or Maria and Ange's hellish lives, are meant to give an insight into what makes Yasu tick. Maria and Ange's situations, in particular, basically give the recipe to create an Umineko Witch.

And no, I haven't watched KNM's Rosatrice videos. I've seen summaries of some of the points, and I've seen them refuted too. One, for example, is "the Ushiromiya family must be the dumbest family on earth not to notice Shannon and Kanon were the same person." Let's go over this.

Most of the Ushiromiya family only visits a couple times a year, so it's not inconceiveable that they wouldn't notice.

Krauss probably hasn't noticed because he doesn't care enough (and he's kind of an idiot anyway).

Natsuhi subconciously resents both Shannon and Kanon, because deep down, she senses they're Lion. She may even conciously know they're the same person, but it's just not relevant enough somehow for her to mention in conversation.

Jessica may have noticed something was off about them, but chose not to think about it too hard, because it was easier/more convenient for her to believe they were seperate entities. This is the girl who chose to believe something spooky was going on in the mansion, rather than think everyone was in a conspiracy (Episode 7).

Gohda doesn't seem concerned with anyone of lesser rank than himself.

George is really the only other person who should know, and he's really only concerned with Shannon, or rather, only concerned about how Shannon effects him. He somehow missed that his own girlfriend developed a massive inferiority complex in two years time, so he's not going to notice she's leading a double (triple/quadruple?) life.

All this being said, Shannon and Kanon probably rarely worked on the same days, so that helps further the idea that no one would really notice.

Kinzo probably caught on though. In the game, it's mentioned that he taught Kanon how to use the rifles he had lying around; however, in the manga, you see him showing Shannon how to use them. He never took the time to teach his legitimate children how to use them (according to the manga), so it's pretty likely he figured it out, but never said anything.

[Sergent H]

thank you for your point of view Doctor.
I agree that only the people present in (almost) permanent on the island (those you quote) could determine for Yasu (+ nanjo and the servants). But what you say resembles (for my reading) to discredit the family present on the island, for different reasons than "stupid" or not.
If they suspected anything; during the murder they would have thought it very quickly for me.
In addition, it would take very little to verify that there was only one person and not two (over a 3-year interval) such as checking in the bedrooms, one would have been empty each night, or Having never communicate with both at the same time in the same house.

The "white" is important for the obvious background and is used for the Rosatrice theory; Like the meaning of certain magic scenes etc ...
I think the author wrote these fuzzy areas voluntarily to create the catbox with a mysterious universe / characters

funny, i found this red quote by reading : (RED) Beatrice : "You can't trust anything, you can't trust any words that aren't red...!!"

[Dr. Novelle]

You can't trust words not in red. But even a pathological liar tells the truth on occasion.

[fouritchytasty]

I just finished Chiru and I havent seen anyone else with the Eva/Ange/Lion Ending theory. Specifically that the true names of the surviving Ushiromia bloodline after the Incident are Eva Ange and Lion( obviously eva croaks in 1998). Other than the cop out of saying that "trick" ange is purely a ficticious construct of the "fake" message bottles, I can see no other thing that makes the text as a whole make sense.

To just copy and past the meat of my reasoning from my blog (cause linking it feels like shameless self promotion) minus fluff:
Sayo Yasuda is alive and is living as Tohya Hachijo. Battler is dead.This would also make the true names of all surviving Ushiromia's Eva/ange/lion, an incredibly odd coincidence or damning circumstantial evidence of the author's intent.

Banquet of the Golden Witch was written by Tohya Hachijo, who had extensive knowledge of the island. The writing was written subsequent to the incident, and is a "forgery" of Sayo's original bottles.

Battler had not been to the island since he was 12. It is unlikely that his memory would be refreshed after a single visit, especially not one ending in near death and brain damage. It follows that Sayo who worked on the island for many years had a much better grasp of the island than Battler.

The story of banquet fails to follow the rules of the original (all 18 must die), but instead most closely resembles the outcome depicted in 1998. It is unlikely Sayo's mysteries anticipated a 2nd culprit prior to Eva's survival. It is not reasonable to assume that this was an original bottle discovered later.

It cannot be coincidence that "07151129", the pin for the bank account full of money was in the forgery as well as in the letters sent to the servant's relatives.

The number has a special significance, "0715" being Battler's birthday and "1129" being the day that Sayo found the gold and was "resurrected" as Beatrice. Battler had no way of knowing that Sayo discovered the gold on that day, but Sayo would have known and remembered both days as significant.

Beatrice died in October of 1986. Therefore, the Golden Land she created was completely destroyed. Your family, which was made to live in the Golden Land, was destroyed along with it. Your father, mother, and of course Battler. . . will never return to you again, and will never speak your name again.(Bernkastel to Ange)

This is a clue, along with George and Eva not being killed with the first shot (Rudolph indicating that the aim is off when shooting George), that it is not unreasonable to have this happen a third time.

The death of Beatrice does not equal the death of Sayo as her host. If anything Beatrice is depicted as being the personification of Sayo's love for Battler. Her death occurs in October 1986 but not necessarily on the 4th or 5th. This vague statement poorly conceals that the death of Beatrice could be the death of her personalities by the amnesia inducing incident (attributed to battler), only for them to be revived later. Alternatively, this could mean that Sayo did not have memory loss, but having failed to die along with the cousins that admired her as Shannon, Kanon, and/or Beatrice s/he could not choose a persona or wished to actively reject them all. 

It could be said that her personalities, tailored to receive love from George, Jessica, Maria, and Battler, died along with love, hopes, and dreams that they embodied.

It is possible that Sayo may have attempted willing or forced double suicide with Battler, or otherwise jumped into the sea with him in a failed attempt to save him. It is also possible that Sayo did not do anything to save Battler, but managed to survive the incident alone. All of these are mere speculation based on the "Magic" Ending, and are not relevant aside from speculating motivation.

In any case, Sayo may have taken on Battler's persona out of regret, love, or for his/her own self interest. If Sayo's mental state is as severely damaged as we are lead to believe, then s/he may actually think that s/he was Battler for a time.

I believe it may be a mixture of all of the above.

Judging from the appearance assigned to Kinzo, Tohya Hachijo is depicted to look just like him. It would not be unreasonable for either Battler or Sayo to grow to look like Kinzo as they grew older. Sayo is the child of Kinzo where Battler is the Grandchild. Arguably it is more likely that Sayo would have that appearance than Battler.

The "magic" ending and the "resurrection" of Battler appear to be Sayo's final "magic" on behalf of Beatrice and Sayo's lost love Battler, explaining her reluctance to meet with Ange for many years. The aging process would carry her further away from Ange's memories of Battler and bring her closer to the expected physical appearance of Battler. It also explains Tohya Hachijo's suicide attempt as well as his/her pain in having memories of Battler.

If anyones got anything that contradicts or supports this lemme know. 8D

[Sergent H]

Ushiromiya Ange definitely died in 1998 therefore how could she meet "tohya" and ikuko decades later?

[fouritchytasty]

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย Sergent H:

Ushiromiya Ange definitely died in 1998 therefore how could she meet "tohya" and ikuko decades later?

Not sure where Ange is dead in 1998 other than lil bernies "youd definitely die if you jump on the rooftop." Is there something im missing? The manga or a side ep or something?

[Sergent H]

yeah in the manga in twiligh episode there is

RED : "Ushiromiya Ange definitely dies in 1998"

source : http://umineko.wikia.com/wiki/Red_Truth

[fouritchytasty]

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย Sergent H:

yeah in the manga in twiligh episode there is

RED : "Ushiromiya Ange definitely dies in 1998"

source : http://umineko.wikia.com/wiki/Red_Truth

gah, time to read the manga for the context, cus the red truth lies by omission. Need to see context to know if it refers to her name change or personality death.

[fouritchytasty]

Although I guess overall its not relevant to my main assertion of who the surviving bloodline is. Once i read the manga I'll have to draft up another possibility too. I think it's still more sensible to think that battler is dead and sayo/lion/yasu is the writer, though thats prolly motivated by my liking her/him a hell of a lot more than battler as a character.

[Sergent H]

you should read all the comment above because i explain my assertion that lion/sayo/yasu doesn't exist