just started...party question

[hibbidy_jibbidy]

is the initial party of pills, bear, cold-eye and slick fine for first time run through?

[Darth Cannabis]

In theory any party can work, since its only a little over half the total. You start with 4, but will add 3 more as the story progresses. So basically all the 1st 4 determine, is which ones you most want as the last 3.

Its also virtually impossible to fill all roles with only 4 starting characters, so whatever you don't have will have to be recruited later, with not all characters available on all playthrus (accesability based on your decisions).

Without spoiling too much, one early decision will determine access to either a sniper/scout/animal trainer recruit, or a medic/computer based recruit. Therefore while Cold Eye and Pills together are perfectly viable (double sniper or double medic can both be powerful for what they are), its not exactly optimal for covering all bases long term. Even then thou, you can simply leave the picked up recruit at base, and just favor another that fills something you lack. Again, simply determines, how you choose the last 3 along the journey.

However excepting what you can and can't get done, is part of Wasteland. There's always that 1 (or 2 or 3) thing you seem to have to choose to live without.

Without the beforehand knowledge, don;t see you having reason to change on Cold Eye and Pills. However both Bear and Slick, tend to lean toward social builds, and you only really need a single character to cover that. Combat and Knowledge skills come 1st. I would recomend replacing one of those with either Bert ( a more physical workhorse frontliner, and brute force),or Cherry Bomb (shotgun, demolitons and toaster repair, the latter 2 will be VERY useful).

Your party will work fine, but knowing what character are sure to be found later, (and spoilng as little as possible, no names, locations or aproximate level found) I see at least 2 of the 3 of those the final spots as highly predictable. I would guess on you adding a certain lockpicker/safe cracker out of necesity, and one of the available tech based characters. This leaves that 3rd spot a choice between a demolitions/brute, or a animal husbandry/toaster repair. (thus why I advise the 2 I do earlier)

Note on characters sure to find:

In game, you will have no problem finding techs, brawlers, (both have multiple canidates) or a lockpicking/safecracking shotgun, smg/medic, heavy weapon/hard ass, pistol/bargain user that you can always find regardless of decisions. Theres also some good demoliton characters, but not in so nearly as neat a package as Cherry.

[hibbidy_jibbidy]

what a fantastic responce, thanks bud....i wasnt sure if the 4 put up there was reccomended by the makers or what..kk thanks

[Gillsing]

Originally posted by Darth Cannabis:

Its also virtually impossible to fill all roles with only 4 starting characters

While Rangers don't get enough skill points to level up all the skills at the start, you can easily make a bunch of perfectly viable skill monkeys who'll be swimming in skill points soon enough, thereby able to cover all the skills in the game, while having enough Action Points and Combat Initiative to be decent fighters as well:

C:2 L:1 A:4 S:2 S:8 I:10 C:1 9+1 AP CI:13
+1 AP from the Tinkerer perk
+1 Awareness every tenth level to build up Combat Initiative

The Ranger with the Leadership skill should have high Charisma though, to get a larger radius for the Chance to Hit bonus of 2% per level of Leadership:

C:2 L:1 A:2 S:2 S:10 I:1 C:10 7+1 AP CI:12
+1 AP from the Tinkerer perk
+1 Awareness every tenth level to build up Combat Initiative

But I'm sure that just using premade characters would work. I haven't really checked them out, but the game is pretty easy, and the things that are necessary to do aren't that hard to get done. And you can just restart if you become displeased with your current Rangers. I started over four times before I managed to create a team of Rangers I was happy enough with to bring them to the late game. The first two times I restarted I hadn't even made it through Highpool before I realised that things didn't work the way I thought they would.

[mikeydsc]

I ran thru my most of the game with the initial party until I decided to make my own chars for a full playthru. Played on veteran mode both playthrus.

Using the initial party I made it to LA and a few quests into that area.
My custom party is up to playing with the CotC now and going well.

[Gillsing]

Originally posted by Darth Cannabis:

However both Bear and Slick, tend to lean toward social builds, and you only really need a single character to cover that.

I've taken a look at the default characters now, and while Slick has two dialogue skills and pretty high Charisma, Bear doesn't seem particularly 'social' to me. Rather like an Angela Deth-type character, with many of the same skills, including her choice of weapon. The one to get rid of is clearly Slick though, on account of his poor Intelligence, and thereby lack of skill points per level.

Fade and Hex look fairly good, and any Ranger could put a few points into a dialogue skill. They're pretty cheap if you boost them with their early perks that give +2 bonus levels on top of the skill levels you spend points on. I wouldn't suggest putting more than one dialogue skill on a single Ranger, since it's beneficial if each Ranger can wear a trinket for their particular dialogue skill. Which is another reason to not go with Slick. His main attraction for me is his goggles, and I have used them for my own character, and plan to keep using them for other characters.

[Darth Cannabis]

Originally posted by Gillsing:

Originally posted by Darth Cannabis:

However both Bear and Slick, tend to lean toward social builds, and you only really need a single character to cover that.

I've taken a look at the default characters now, and while Slick has two dialogue skills and pretty high Charisma, Bear doesn't seem particularly 'social' to me. Rather like an Angela Deth-type character, with many of the same skills, including her choice of weapon. The one to get rid of is clearly Slick though, on account of his poor Intelligence, and thereby lack of skill points per level.

Fade and Hex look fairly good, and any Ranger could put a few points into a dialogue skill. They're pretty cheap if you boost them with their early perks that give +2 bonus levels on top of the skill levels you spend points on. I wouldn't suggest putting more than one dialogue skill on a single Ranger, since it's beneficial if each Ranger can wear a trinket for their particular dialogue skill. Which is another reason to not go with Slick. His main attraction for me is his goggles, and I have used them for my own character, and plan to keep using them for other characters.

Well I like Fade and Hex as well, the only reason I didn't recomend them, is thier main archetypes are easily found thru the course of the game. Fade's lockpicking and safecracking, can be filled with a less skilled character, who doesn't take very much charisma (its the party total of all members on charisma recruit requirements), and there are multiple "tech" options available thru the game.

Fade is personally one of my favorite premades. Its just the alternative safecracker/lockpicker is not that far into the story and easy to recruit, to where its easy enough to do without one until then.

Hex, while a fun starting tech, is just easily replaceable as well. There are potentially 2-3 tech buildable characters (computer skill to start with, and solid intelligence for skill points), and many early uses for computer, can also have mechanical used alternatively, with many just not being that important. Thus you will find that Cold Eye, can get the job done, until you get one of those later tech characters.

But like I initially said, any party can work out of the premades, it just becomes a matter of what you want to add on the last 3 slots, as story progresses. Some will clearly complete the party better than others, if one double ups a role, just look for another. There are plenty of recruits you come across thru the progress of the game.

[Darth Cannabis]

Originally posted by Gillsing:

Originally posted by Darth Cannabis:

Its also virtually impossible to fill all roles with only 4 starting characters

While Rangers don't get enough skill points to level up all the skills at the start, you can easily make a bunch of perfectly viable skill monkeys who'll be swimming in skill points soon enough, thereby able to cover all the skills in the game, while having enough Action Points and Combat Initiative to be decent fighters as well:

C:2 L:1 A:4 S:2 S:8 I:10 C:1 9+1 AP CI:13
+1 AP from the Tinkerer perk
+1 Awareness every tenth level to build up Combat Initiative

The Ranger with the Leadership skill should have high Charisma though, to get a larger radius for the Chance to Hit bonus of 2% per level of Leadership:

C:2 L:1 A:2 S:2 S:10 I:1 C:10 7+1 AP CI:12
+1 AP from the Tinkerer perk
+1 Awareness every tenth level to build up Combat Initiative

But I'm sure that just using premade characters would work. I haven't really checked them out, but the game is pretty easy, and the things that are necessary to do aren't that hard to get done. And you can just restart if you become displeased with your current Rangers. I started over four times before I managed to create a team of Rangers I was happy enough with to bring them to the late game. The first two times I restarted I hadn't even made it through Highpool before I realised that things didn't work the way I thought they would.

My statement stands. A bunch of skill monkeys is a choice to go without that main combat role. Since when I speak of filling roles, I am including combat roles, and assume at least one better than just "decent" fighter, it goes beyond just covering all skills.

Also, just a little language lesson. the word virtually, was specifically used for the purpose of exempting the possibility of extreme skill custom designed characters, and any other possible exemptions to the statement, such as making an entire party of characters that have finished the game and were saved for a new game + reason.

Avoiding the response you added, was the entire reason I said, "virtually impossible" instead of just saying its impossible.

[SnapSlav]

Originally posted by Darth Cannabis:

[It's] also virtually impossible to fill all roles with only 4 starting characters

Amend that to "difficult for new players" instead of "virtually impossible", and then you've got it right. It's VERY possible to specialize in EVERY skill, including 6 weapon types, with just 4 starting rangers, AND they're not even all "skill monkey" builds! I myself am running just such a team to snub a user who got all uppity about "this is the way it is, myeh, anyone who disagrees is WRONG", which is beating the game with just* my 4 rangers, and they have EVERY non-combat skill (yes, even Barter) as well as all 4 of them are effective combatants. Their relative INTs are 10, 8, 4, and 1, so this is CLEARLY not a team of 4 rolling with 20 total SP/lvl. This is 14 total per level, which is barely above the "recommended" average 12 total per level.

The thing is, without playing the game and knowing when and to what level certain skills "should" be leveled, this is "difficult". So it's not to be recommended for new players. BUT, as a point of technicality, TOTALLY "possible", not at all impossible.

*With very few exceptions, my 4 rangers do everything. Rarely I pick up recruits to dump them but still get the exp reward, or to have enough CHA to pick up other recruits for immediate dumping, or for certain quests, then immediately dumped (I'm sure you see the pattern).

[Gillsing]

Originally posted by SnapSlav:

Amend that to "difficult for new players" instead of "virtually impossible", and then you've got it right.

I agree with that. To me "virtually impossible" sounds like something that may be theoretically possible, but no one has done it, so no one can prove that it's possible or impossible.

Or it could be something that only the best of the best could achieve. But come on, it's a turn-based computer game we're talking about. If one player can do it, then many, many other players would surely be able to do the same thing. It's not like some extremely difficult 2D-scrolling platform game where you might have to practice for weeks to speedrun a level, which could then be considered 'virtually impossible' for regular gamers. (I'm just guessing - I don't play those games.)

Originally posted by Darth Cannabis:

Well I like Fade and Hex as well, the only reason I didn't recomend them, is thier main archetypes are easily found thru the course of the game.

I don't really care about their archetypes, since those are just their starting 12 skill points, and what really matters is how their next 120 skill points from 3 sp/level for 40 levels are spent. It's not as if their attributes are allocated in a particular way that matters for their skills. All they really need in order to be better than Slick is Intelligence 4+ and higher Combat Initiative and more Action Points.

And early NPC recruits can easily be adapted to other roles, or allow the player's own Rangers to switch to other roles before they've had time to put too many skill points into all of their skills. To be safer from that, focus on weapon skills at first, because even if it's the same weapon an NPC recruit might use, that's a lot less unnecessary than a duplicate skill.

Originally posted by Darth Cannabis:

Since when I speak of filling roles, I am including combat roles, and assume at least one better than just "decent" fighter, it goes beyond just covering all skills.

If all Rangers are decent fighters you don't really need one that's better than just decent. They all help fulfil the 'combat role' by all being able to act often enough, unlike some truly dedicated skill monkeys who end up with terrible Combat Initiative because they have maxed both Intelligence and Charisma. Or Intelligence and Luck, to get +10% to every skill that can critically succeed or fail. (Instead of Leadership, such a skill monkey could act as a human shield, what with all those lucky hit points.)

Besides, it would mainly be quirks that make a decent fighter even better at combat, depending on which quirk they get. But detailed discussions about quirks don't seem suitable for this thread.

[gamename]

Originally posted by hibbidy_jibbidy:

is the initial party of pills, bear, cold-eye and slick fine for first time run through?

So, I guess this has been pretty thoroughly answered now, and OP may have made his choice and put some time in already, but to add one more little part .. This 'for a first time run' ... that was my thinking when I started. After getting a little way into the game, I started thinking that it's a pretty long involved game, and that if I make it through, I might not do a second run through, at least not for a long time. It's not like, say, Borderlands, where you can just dive in, finish the main story in a few days, and then try a new char, or re-spec.

So, for me that's a 'soft no', for reasons that others have explained, made a little firmer by the thought that you're stuck with this team for a while. You *could* do it, but probably shouldn't. Devs could have made this clearer .. done a tutorial mode, or pushed players more towards build your own. For me, I restarted, and customized some premades .. kept their cosmetics, some of their 'archeypes' (Pills still my medic).

(As a new player, OP might find my thread useful .. some questions I had as a new player, and some good info from these guys here. Some mild spoilers, but not much, I'm not far in the game yet.)

[SnapSlav]

Originally posted by gamename:

Devs could have made this clearer .. done a tutorial mode, or pushed players more towards build your own.

Yet another example of where Fallout Tactics was the superior game. (Not saying I'd always rather play FOT, just that some areas WL2 is better, some areas FOT is better.) Like all classic Fallout games, it comes with pre-maded characters as well as an extensive character-creation screen, but it also comes with a tutorial that helps walk you through the mechanics of the game that can really aid you in determining how you wish to build your character, and ultimately customize your future squad. Even better, the tutorial comes off like an in-universe drill in an obstacle course, for better immersion.

Ultimately the lack of conveyence of game mechanics prior to needing to use them is a fundamental flaw of WL2, but it's overcome by "once you learn, you know" design. However, in a game that can last hundreds of hours before completion, that's a LOT of room for players to outgrow and decide it's time for do-overs.

[red255]

Opens up game and looks at default squad.

.... OK, squad is a tad un optimized.

issue 1. three of them have odd numbers of Coordination (you get extra AP every even Coord so the odd point is a waste)
Issue 2. 2 of them have 'high' charisma. really a dump stat except for your leader.
Issue 3. nobody has any quirks. quirks were added later but are fun and typically you can work with them
Issue 4. Uh.. you bladed user has 4 strength. Every 2 points of strength is one additional HP per level up. everyone's strength is criminally low.
Issue 5. Nobody has leadership
Issue 6 INT should only be 1, 4, 8 or 10 nothing else matters.

SOOOOOOOOOOO

I'd tweak the stuff a bit for a first time player. this squad I think is to take out there and die horribly.

So lets fix this.

PIlls take a point off awareness, give it to Speed. take a point off luck give it to coord. this can be our leader. OOH Give it leadership. eventually. alternatively rip off the charisma 4 points and stick them in dunno 2 points STR, two points SPD. for more HP and initiative and AP.

moving on. Slick. highest CHA and tag of negotiator. maybe HE should be the leader. which would explain his garbage STR score, he's not actually trying to stab anything he just has it because it looks cool.

still 2 INT is worthless. Raising it to 4 would get us 1 additonal skill point per level and one AP. so...pull two points off Coord and 1 point off luck to accomplish that. net of no AP loss for one extra skill point per level up. moving on.

bear. take a point off coord, stick it in INT
take 2 points off luck and CHA stick them to raise STR and SPD to 4. cleaner.

Coldeye, take a point off CORD stick it in STR.

that should clean everything up thats glaringly wrong, obviously you could fix most of this as you level up, but why fix things that shouldn't be wrong in the first place?

skill wise. meh. I mean you are missing stuff, but that generally gets filled in as you pick up 3 more team members from the field to fill your rolls.

yeah the initial team is a tad off I'd adjust it slightly before using it. not really sure why they aren't. role play reasons maybe dunno.

[Gillsing]

Originally posted by red255:

INT should only be 1, 4, 8 or 10 nothing else matters.
...

still 2 INT is worthless. Raising it to 4 would get us 1 additonal skill point per level and one AP. so...pull two points off Coord and 1 point off luck to accomplish that. net of no AP loss for one extra skill point per level up.

But Intelligence 2 + 2 Coordination + 1 Luck = Intelligence 5?