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I have never tried SJ nor do I have any intentions of either.
I play on hard, good enough for me. HW and SMG - both suffer greatly from Armor Penetration, even with a couple perks, so you hit 2x out of 5 shoots for low dmg.
Let me know how it goes in LA. I am truly curious now, as most posts all have these 2 weps as bottom of barrel along with bladed weapons. Pistols I did max Rose with using them and all her perks to maximize her contributions and she actually held her own. (again hard mode)( I added her attribute points to luck for more crits and free shots)
Have you thought of which npc toons you are going to let tag along with you?
Schotchmo is very good with shotguns and could be pointed in blunt or bladed as 2ndary. Available immediately after getting out intot he wild. Rails camp. Also can pick up Ralphy there who is a toaster repair guy (starts at toaster 5 iirc).
I usually give 3 toons 1 point in field medic. And one of that 3, will go up to 4 or 5. Whatever is 3rd biggest kit, and use that toon as primary healer in combat and the others as extreme emergencies if main guy goes down.
Also, one last question, those skills you marked to 10, are you including the skill books so you onlu have to goto 9? Some skills have those nice trinkets that can boost 2 or 3 points worth of a skill, only need to go to 7 or 8 depending, so now you have those points for something else.
HW is pretty solid early game, though I heard they aren't as good in late game. I don't expect this ranger to be exceptional, but good enough to hold it's ground.
I think SMG is better than handgun early game and I certainly need something to distribute the ammo usage from HW, it's more for flavor and fun factor than optimal best build ever.
Is HW that bad against armor? The tooltip says "good armor penetration" which places it above AR, plus it shots more bullets per action, turning it more deadly... I mean, I am a newbie, haven't really played before, just quick runs for test purposes. I am following the tooltip orientation here.
I really wanted to create a blade + pistol, had this one in mind, but I figure that shotgun aeo can do more on a tough situation. Plus blade + pistol doesn't seems that hard to create into a CNPC. Definitely gonna add one, for flavor.
I searched CHA requeriment, it only shows the CNPC list instead, without being abled to calculate and know exactly what I can have, I think it really doesn't worth the time spent on speculation, so rather I will 'improvise'
In order to make blunt/shotgun to really work, I'll need 12+ armor, max health, max speed, decent CI, and at least 12 AP, without those conditions it won't be able to shine.
Sure I could make a better build which would help me more on early game, but stat with skill also in consideration no CNPC will be nearly as good in end game.
The best seems to be Takayuki. It's a matter of, do I choose to have a harder early game, in order to see how powerful an idea could be later on, when everything is settle together?
I think I can just re arrenge the stats and turn it into a better early game, without changing the end game orientation. Just a matter of tweaking.
I want a medic/surgeon with energy weapon, I also want a blade + pistol the last one could be anything ammo friendly, probably another energy weapon as well for more armor piercing.
2 medics actually sounds a good bet.
Nope, no skill book counted in. Only base stats + max level stats. Trinkets I've added based on wiki info, it seems it lacks a very good deal of items. Trinket wise it's certainly bound to change.
Stats wise I'm counting with the info that I have, it really can turn out into something not optimal later in the game, but alas, nothing I can do about it.
The two weapon types that have high Penetration are Sniper Rifles and Blunt Weapons.
Both of those have low AP attacks, so they should be good for Precision Strikes, and Brute Force perks which give 5-10-15% chance to stun with every melee attack.
Charisma 12 for Scotchmo, 22 for Pizepi, and 26-32 for the tricky-to-acquire Gary "NaCl" Wolfe, if you side with the DBM in a very specific manner (first reject, then side with them anyway is what I read). I think some other NPC recruits require Charisma 18 or so. Personally I planned for Radiant Personality, but never needed it, so I never had my Smart 'Bottom' leader get it.
I wouldn't make a Thick-Skinned heavy armor tank without Self Defense (Bladed Weapons 3). 0% damage is more fun than taking 20% damage, which is more fun than taking 40% damage.
For combat you'll surely want to have one Ranger wear the unique +5 Combat Initiative -15% Evasion trinket, and for other Rangers you might want to use the -1 Action Point +3 Combat Initiative Pair of Engagement Rings. Unless of course it results in having 1 AP too few for two attacks each turn.
Yea, HW there is only one worth having according to Gill. He'll pop in here eventually as will Snap. Both of whom know much more details than I remember.
EDIT - lol, just wrote that up before Gill showed up and he managed to sneak his post in before my reply :).
Do you suggest HW with a different secondary than SMG? Maybe energy?...
(If I choose energy, then I'll have to rely more on heavy for most common enemies, meaning way more ammo usage)
Do you think blade + pistol will be good with bloodthristy?
Currently my party has a total of 8 CHA without accounting any CNPC.
with Radiant Personality that would jump to 13 CHA. Which would be the same amount as if I didn't get this perk and place all points in CHA at maximum level.
Based on CNPC list the highest CHA they have is 9, 5 then 4. With 2 of them to recruit the third would net my party 27 CHA total, that is a maximal level/10CHA leader without Radiant Personality. (37 max with the perk)
Anything above 27 would be impossible to get, furthermore by the time I reach maximal level I would've already missed a good deal of recruits.
Another argument in favor of Radiant Personality is that, the higher my CHA recruitment score is, the less overall points I will have to invest, therefore more free points to boost CI/AP.
My tanker would have 10 str (in the end) + healthy + Thick Skinned + Hardened + Reinforced Plating + Armor maintence.
The difference would be 14 armor versus 15 armor. I could make blade + shotgun, but then would lead into less armor piercing.
It's something to think about, certaitnly blade would add more tankyness, but there are important aspects to lose.
Well, since there is skill books, my sniper certainly could use a CI trinket. Going to 24 CI at maximal level. Pretty dope. Other than that, only CNPCs, the rest absolutely need AP trinkets.
http://wasteland.wikia.com/wiki/Wasteland_2_skill_books
Location included as well :)
What I would suggest is a burst weapon and the Psychopath quirk (-10% Chance to Hit), to quickly max Violent Tendencies, and then a quick weapon for using the +40% Chance to Hit to do easy Precision Strikes with 100% Chance to Hit. Or something like that. Energy weapons are good for Precision Strikes, since they've got the Laser Pistol at 3 AP, and also the longer range Ion Beamer at 4 AP.
The minigun, which is the top tier heavy machinegun with 0% jam chance, gets -40% Chance to Hit beyond 10 meters, so if you can get a huge boost to your Chance to Hit by shooting something at 3-5 tiles away (-20% Chance to Hit at 1-2 tiles), then you should be able to use the increased Chance to Hit to hit reliably at any range until you miss with a single round and have to rebuild the Violent Tendencies bonus.
But that's just a suggestion to maximize synergy with weapons that are otherwise considered worse than almighty assault rifles, which have range, accuracy, damage output and all four weapon mod slots to get even more range and accuracy, with no jamming. Heavy machineguns might be more powerful in the early game, but the early game is easy.
Sure. Blades require movement, so even if you don't get an extra attack from the +1 AP after killing a target, you can do what my killer did once, and move into the now dead target's cover position right after killing it. Or save the AP for next turn, and be more likely to get an extra attack at that point. Stacking both Bloodthirsty and Staggering Force onto my Twitchy cutter is why it's taking me forever to get higher weapon skills on that Intelligence 1 Ranger. Still got the highest damage total though. So fast, so deadly. At least on Ranger difficulty, where one can afford to take a few risks. But the Blade Runner is apparently a valid build for solo Supreme Jerk, so how bad can it be?
My leader has maxed Charisma, for larger +20% Chance to Hit aura. But with Ralphy, Scotchmo (Charisma 12) and Rose, it wouldn't have been a problem if I hadn't been able to recruit NPCs like Pizepi, Takayuki or Corran Cain. My team also found enough Spiked Collars for every member to get +1 Charisma from those low tier trinkets, which they use to gain +5% XP from quests and skill usage. So if you want to do careful calculations you might want to take that possibility into consideration, and maybe save scum early safes and toasters (with Toaster Expert perk) to make sure that you get enough Spiked Collars for any NPC you wish to recruit.
You don't have to go full bladed weapons. Just the first three levels is enough for the perk, and then you can switch to a bladed weapon at the end of turn, so you can enjoy the +1 Armor when the enemies attack. If you end up using every last AP you can still use a subsequent Ranger to go into Ranger inventories and simply switch out the weapon for the tank Ranger. Just a slight risk of enemies getting to attack the tank in between. If you're going to go tank, why not spend those 6 skill points so you can go full tank?
Higher Combat Initiative means getting Action Points more often, so in the long run it's like more Action Points. But obviously you wouldn't want to miss a second attack each turn. There is only one AP trinket though, as far as I know. And it's probably the last unique trinket you'll come across in the game. So, extremely late game. Might want to think about trinkets to wear before getting that one.
I am confused now, HW does have 3 perks to boost precision strike chance with HW. I was assuming I couldn't use precision strike with HW because I either started the turn with SMG or moved, IDK. Why would be perks for something that cannot be used?
Currently I am tweaking the builds, and I am facing a dilemma if I keep HW + SMG or not.
SMG requires a cheaper and more common ammo, is also stronger than handguns (early game), and would have a sort of better synergy in perk terms.
Since my HW will have demolition skill, then tormentor perk makes sense, if it happens I won't destroy cover, then tormentor will have a good synergy with Whack-a-Mole, furthermore 10 SPD makes easy to flank.
But... SMG as you said, consumes a lot of ammo, HW also does consume a lot of ammo. So it will be a character extremely ammo inefficient with these two together.
My other options would be Handgun, shotgun or EW.
I think Shotgun overall is better for 'melee' hybrids for a better positionament line of sight, I do already have 2 CNPCS in mind for EW. Handgun is perk hungry...
Decisions... Decisions...
HW's quirky isn't as important as the other rangers, so I can certainly have a look into a build change.
Ammo volleys can be both a bless (to quickly build hit chance/critical) and a curse (a single miss, will reset to the previosuly -10%)
Interesting idea, -10% hit chance sounds problematic for HW though.
Edit: NVM. It seems a default HW attack will have X% chance to inflict a random body location precision strike. Mhmmm...
Thinking about Rose, Takayuki and Pizepi Loren.
Dunno the requeriment of Takayuki, but I should have at least 22. Radiant Personality + Dan Q shall do the trick.
After a little research it seems the majority of weapons has armor piercing value of 7 or lower.
Wiki says if armor value is 6 or higher than the AP, then it will receive no damage.
My melee ranger will have 14 armor end game, therefore safe against most weapons.
The only exception would be Blunt and Sniper which were 10 AP, one extra armor could potentially give an extra 20% defense, but honestly I think it should be easy enough to avoid.
Besides that ranger is completely out skill points, I certaintly could try to change his lay out of skills, but that would mean losing Armor Maintenance, while also leaving to someone else the task to level up mechanical repair and toaster repair. Gonna get unecessary messy.
EW will be a problem, but besides avoiding/killing these enemies and Armor Maintenance, nothing to be done about it.
Yeah, unfortunely I just realized it now. I had this AP trinket planed for 3 rangers.
I have been doing some edits on the builds, looks like I have to re edit stuff. Quite a shame really, had some satisfatory results, alas.
You can get Dan Q by siding with the Mad Monks, Gary "NaCl" Wolfe by siding with DBM, and Corran Cain by disarming the nuke that both sides want. But if it's true what red255 writes, then you're going to need Charisma 18, and won't be able to get Dan Q to help get Pizepi until very late Arizona.
It's true that Armor 13-14 will be safe against most weapons, and I guess there isn't a whole lot of sniper rifles in the mandatory fights. But blunt weapons pop up all over the place, and not all of them are going to be wielded by super slow bashers that can easily be avoided. Quite a few random encounters have both sharpshooters and bashers, but I guess those are of lesser concern than pulse gunners and lobbers.
For one example, Ranger 4 has 4 STR and 2 INT, with a SSI of 16. That's a wasted point, either make them 2 STR and 4 INT, or swap over 1 INT into the STR, because you lose nothing, but you gain minor HP and carry weight.
There's tons of little things like that which make your plan look horrible. It's perfectly suitable for Seasoned/Ranger, but you need a very optimized team to go into Supreme Jerk past the halfway point in the game.
General suggestions...
4 SPD is ALWAYS superior to 2 COR and 2 AWR. So whether you're distributing points during character creation, or deciding where to spend you free point every 10 levels, unless your SPD is maxed, SPD is the most eligible candidate.
6-8 CHA will basically guarantee a character reaches level 50. It's not enough of a boost to warrant putting points away from better stats and into CHA, because that's just a few levels of skills and 1 free attribute point. Most combatant characters should aim for being "done" by 30, if not sooner. Most characters with 1 CHA will never reach 50 without grinding for it. So don't plan on getting 5 points on most of your characters.
Unless the unlocked Perks synergize well with it, you should avoid stacking too many skills together. Rarely ever put more than 1 combat skill on a single character. Demolitions is a utility skill with Perks that benefit combat, so it's okay to stick on someone else. Snipers can make great use of +2 AP from Adrenaline Rush, so having Bladed as a "backup" just for the Perk is great, too. Skills like SMG and HW do not synergize in any way, nor do Bladed and Brawler, or Handguns and Shotguns, etc etc.
Explosives are very powerful all game long, and they don't require any Skills to utilize.
You shouldn't aim to get non-combat skills to level 10, EVER. Master Thief maaaay be cause to plan otherwise, but Trinkets are simply far too valuable of a method of getting "free levels" of skills, and most will become available early on. To rush getting a combat skill up to 10 ASAP, you've gotta prioritize skills in a certain order. You might eventually get all of your skills to 10, but that will be by the end of the game when you have an abundance of SP to spend and not enough skills to spend it on.
Stack a bunch of Trinkets on EVERY character (excluding any Ascetics, of course) to swap out when useful, don't just ride with 1 at all times. The Anarchy Patch comes late into the game, meanwhile a Spiked Collar or Tree Headed Snake Amulet will work wonders on a leader, and both can be grabbed early in the game!
Grabbing Recruits is easy with a team that swaps out Spiked Collars when necessary, and temporarily bringing along Recruits with decent CHA scores who themselves will tag along without a very high combined group CHA score. You DO NOT want to use Radiant Personality to grab Recruits when swapping out Trinkets gets the job done, is vastly more valuable and convenient, and frees you up to learn a better Perk.
There are very few good Perks, a tiny handful of must-have Perks, and MANY Perks not even worth considering. If a Perk is one in a series of Perks that require each other, they better be DAMN good to warrant getting any of them (the 3 Shotgun friendly fire Perks are a good example). Hardened is good. Tinkerer is must-have. Perks that decrease inaccuracy are generally garbage, because other things can overcome inaccuracy that cost less than a Perk.
There are quite a few great Quirks, and Brittle Bones isn't really one of them. It's decent on a Sniper, but there are better. Early in the game battles won't involve much running around, so you won't notice the drawback of Brittle Bones, but the harder battles later in the game will necessitate A LOT of running, and a team of Brittle Bones characters will really suffer during this part of the game when they NEED to be doing well instead. Twitchy is an almost broken Quirk because it's so good. Way of the Squeezins is an excellent Quirk on a character who uses a low-crit weapon. Thick Skinned is an essential Quirk for a tank. Delayed Gratification is a net positive Quirk. Ascetic is great on a combat-exclusive characters who needs to be online as soon as possible, otherwise it's a deleterious Quirk (unless you count how broken it is if exploited).
The commonly-accepted "ranking" of weapons can be ignored on most difficulties, but for Supreme Jerk they are practically Gospel. That means Assault Rifles, Sniper Rifles, and maybe 1 or 2 (max) with Energy Weapons.
You can hold unspent Perk/Attribute/Skill points until you really need it.
...
That being said, do what you want. But I wouldn't try what you outlined, and that's me. You do you. But these are my suggestions from experience. This isn't a very hard game, but it gives you ample rope to hang yourself with, if you so desire.
Thanks, I'll keep that in mind on the weapon distribution.
After giving a better look on recruits, Pizep seems to be one of the best recruits. I mean she starts below level 10, so that's full 5 attributes distribution. She starts with 1 extra attribute point. (29)
And at maximal level she has a total of 192 skill points (without addresing skill books and statues, but accounting starting skills value), placing her very close to a custom created ranger int 8 skill point wise. However she only has int 5.
Her attributes while not awesome, is better than alot of others recruits.
Maybe I won't recruit takayuki. Leaning a little bit more into Chisel currently. So, thinking about turning that shotgun + blunt, into a blade + pistol, so he could easily benefit from the full 15 armor.
____
@SnapSlav.
Thanks for the pointers. I agree my start build left a lot to be desired, it was the first sketch without proper knowledge of the game, and insufficient research,
I have a few changes, however before posting I want to quickly adress on the 2 int ranger.
I will have 1 ranger with 10 int and 1 NPC with 10 int, meaning I'll be able to cover all non combat essential skills in the game.
2 survivor points is enough to place that ranger primary and secondary weapon on maximal level, while also allowing him/her to have demolition on very high level.
Primary weapon + Secondary + Demilition is essentially all I want on this ranger.
Why Str 4? Because minigun is the weapon with the heaviest weapon in the game. Giving me an extra 1/lv survival skill point which I will not use, while reducing my character carry capacity (for a minigun user), is a lose-lose situation, since the 'winning' part will bring no advantage. I pumped int 2 to, to gain 1 action point for 1 attribute point investment.
As for brittle bones on my leader/int. Well, for starters he is occupying 2 posiitons which will turn him into a worse combatant, due attribute distribution requeriment (int/cha)
However, I want to hit the mark of 12 AP to be able to double shot. Without Brittle Bones there's absolutely no way to hit 12 AP with a CHA/INT ranger. Also brittle bones equals 4 attributes points if you think about iot.
Not the best Quirky, certainly, situational, and for my sniper and leader seems the best fit overall.
Ranger 1 (Leader)
Cor2 (+2), L1, Aw4, Str2, Spd4, Int10, Cha5 (+3)
AP: S10/P12 (Tinkerer +1/Cor+1). CI 11.
AR. Light armor.
Quirky: Brittle Bones.
Ranger 2 (Melee Hybrid)
Cor1 (+3), L1, Aw1(+2), Str10, Spd10, Int4, Cha1
AP: S9/P12 (Anarchy +1/Cor+2). CI 11 to 13. Armor 14.
Blunt/Shotgun. Heavy Armor. Trinket: Anarchy Patch
Quirky: Thick-Skinned
Note: There's a chance I'll replace this ranger.
Ranger 3 (Heavy Gunner)
Cor8, L1, Aw3 (+5), Str4, Spd10, Int2, Cha1
AP: S11/P12 (Tinkerer) CI S13/P18
HW/? Light Armor. Trinket Inverted four-leaf clover
Quirky: Psychopath
Edit: int 1, str5. aw-1 (oops)
Ranger 4 (Sniper)
Cor6(+2), L1 (+1), Aw8(+2), Str1, Spd10, Int1, Cha1.
AP: S11/P13 (Tinkerer +1/Cor+1). CI S18/P25
Sniper/Handgun. Light Armor. Trinket: Choice
Not sure where you get your numbers, but Pizepi Joren starts at level 16. I think Ralphy, Scotchmo, Rose and Vulture's Cry are the only NPC recruits who start below 10.
There is no point in Intelligence 2, as you get that same AP from putting that attribute point into Strength or Speed (if it isn't already maxed). That's because you get +1 AP for every full 4 points into either Strength, Speed or Intelligence. So you always want those three to end up evenly divisible by four, or maybe just one point above, if you go with even numbers for Strength and Speed, and Intelligence 1.
Disparnumerophobia also equals 4 attribute points for Action Points and Combat Initiative if you don't count Luck or Charisma, and count Strength and Intelligence as half each because they only add an Action Point for every four points. And if you intend to grind your leader up to 50, that'll be +1 for each attribute at that even level. And after reaching level 2 you can choose to only level up every two levels, to never again have to suffer the -1 for each attribute. Just be aware that temporary bonuses like that do not affect levelling: Not lucky hit points from Luck, not MaxCon from Strength, and not skill points from Intelligence. So your leader would still need the full Intelligence 10 to get 5 skill points each level. But +1 Charisma would save you a point that wouldn't get saved on Intelligence.
Seems weapons will slowly changing the ammo type usage. Overall AR and HW end using the same ammo type, while SMG and handgun the same.
Do you think 2 snipers would be viable?
https://guides.gamepressure.com/wasteland2/guide.asp?ID=26291
Well, that makes a less interesting npc. =/
Still I suppose would be better than alternatives. Have to check to confirm or not.
It was way too good to be true.
Changed int for str. :)
Oohhhh didn't knew I could 'trick' Disparnumerophobia like that!
Interesting, gonna definitely give a check my first ranger soon, after I finish with some npcs. Haven't had time recently.
Thanks for the advice. :)
With Disp:
+1.5 combat speed
+4.5% evasion
+2% hit chance
+1% critical chance
+1 Charisma (max level)
Same CI
-50 health (max level)
12 AP at level 4, rather than wait till level 20.
Start with 1 less Cha. (personal choice, really)
Cor5+1 , L1+1, Aw1+1, Str1+1, Spd7+1, Int10, Cha3+1(+5)
I am assuming that I would still get 1 AP every 4 attribute points per str/spd/int from the bonus.
Tecnically my int would be '11,' does anybody knows if 11 is possible and if it's, would it count towards the AP count?
Sure. The top tier sniper rifle (and a unique version) uses special ammo that can't be bought from replenishing vendors, but I'd say there's enough ammo to buy that it should last for two snipers. At least as long as you don't use that ammo for every random encounter when grinding XP. Save it for special random encounter and non-random battles and you should be fine. Worst case you'd have to fall back on 7.62 mm sniper rifles. An ammo type which you should have quite enough of if you stocked up.
Ahh, looks like the "1" fell away and it's a typo for both the new version (Pizepi Joren) and the old version (Vipula). I forgot to mention Angela Deth, who starts off at 7 in Director's Cut, but since she's just temporary she wouldn't be around for most of the game.
You can make an entire team with that quirk, but unless you can make them level up at the same pace, they'll eventually end up at different levels when you report to your commanding officer. There are other ways to gain even more extra AP, but unless you settle for the ~50 bottles that can be found/bought throughout the game, Way of the Squeezins requires a lot of tedious stocking up on replenishing Snake Squeezins from the bar in Rail Nomads Camp (which I suppose you could do while replenishing ammo from the general store there). And while Manic Depressive is free, it's also random, and pretty much results in a leader who can be good at combat 50% of the time, and terribly slow the other 50% of the time. But since the moods last for 10-15 minutes, you could wait it out before important fights, to make sure that your Manic Depressive Ranger is in a +3 Combat Initiative mood and not in a -3 Combat Initiative mood. (The link leads to a thread where Disparnumerophobia is also discussed.)
Early game would be the difference between 2 shots or 3 shots, for 4 extra meters. (current 8m)
I'd have to wait until level 20 to get AP up to 12 again. But it's my buffer character after all.
I think you're right.
Maniac Depression seems to require too much hassle. heh.
Technically it's superior than disp, infact probably the best quirky when a +2 all rolls in, but I don't min max that much, it's more for uniqueness flavor that works for me.
I'm almost finishing stuff.
Currently 2 doubts left.
1 - Say I have Hard ass 6, if I equip a trinket hard ass +1, will I be able to unlock the perk, which requires 7?
2 -My skill distribution below.
Leadership 10/CHA 9 (max level)
Lockpicking 10
Safecracking 10
Kiss Ass 10 with trinket
Smart Ass 10
Hard Ass 7
Weaponsmith 8
Mechanical Repair 8
Toaster Repair 8
Field Medic 7 to 10.
Demolition 7
Perception 10 with trinket
Computer Science 10 (at end game, had SP to spare, otherwise 8)
Alarm Disarming 10 (at end game, had SP to spare, otherwise 8)
Surgeon 8 to 10
Brute force 3
No Barter
No Outdoorman
No Animal Whisper
Left most character with about 10 levels worth spared SP or with not very important skills that can wait until max.
So more or less my party skill distribution is set on level 40ish.
I can definitely add the lacking skills above if I want to, and Pizep currently has 50 spare points.
Got 2 character which can level up Surgeon and Field medic to 10 due spare SP. Worth it?
I guess a single Field Medic 10 can be alright ,since I'll have 2 melee fighters, 1 which will be maxed health.
Weapon distribution:
Ranger 1 (Leader)
AR
Ranger 2 (Melee Hybrid)
Blade + Shotgun
Ranger 3 (Heavy)
HW + SMG
Ranger 4 (Sniper)
Sniper + Handgun
Rose
SMG + EW
Pizep
EW + AR
Chisel
Blunt + Shotgun
2x SMG, 1x Handgun
1x HW, 2x AR
1x Sniper
2x EW
2x Shotgun