Generally speaking, how good are all of the weapons?

[Seven ate you]

I heard that some weapons are better than others but I also have a lot of conflicting information. Like I've heard energy weapons are bad, and then I heard they're good.

Also if you could tell me when exactly they are good and when exactly they're bad would also be useful. Because I don't want to accidently make a entire team only good for early game.

[Gillsing]

In the early game sniper rifles are the best, because they got long range by default, with no penalties at maximum range. Assault rifles are better in the later game, when they can be equipped with tactical scopes to increase their optimal range, plus laser sights to really help with the penalties for two-shot bursts at maximum range.

Then again, the two-shot burst attack with the best assault rifle costs 8 AP, and it would be tricky to get two of those per turn, whereas the best non-unique sniper rifle costs 7 AP which can be cut down to 6 AP with the Deadeye perk (Sniper Rifles 10). Which makes it fairly easy to get two shots every turn if you designed a sniper with that in mind.

Though you can of course get a Ranger to 14-15 AP per turn with a suitable quirk and the Tinkerer perk, which would be enough for one two-shot burst and one single shot with the best assault rifle. Or two 7 AP rocket launches. Can get Combat Initiative 15 too, which is good enough for most fights.

Energy weapons are mainly good against robots, synths and conductive armor, but not against humans with machine parts. I haven't gone to the 'robot headquarters' yet, and so far the robots have been easy to handle without energy weapons. Though I have my own synth with me to deliver the energy when robots come close enough to my rear guard Rangers.

They say that energy weapons become as good as other weapons against conductive targets, but the rest of the time they're bad. Which is fairly accurate. Mostly good for Precision Strikes I suppose, 3 AP up close with a laser pistol, or 4 AP farther away with an Ion Beamer or the unique WOPR Blaster (late Arizona). But you don't need energy weapons at all, really, since other weapons can critically hit and do a lot of damage against conductive targets.

But my synth is a never-ending source of free Energy Cells with the Cyber Scrounger perk, so it would feel like a waste not to spray the world with high energy beams from my Gamma Ray Blaster. The thing that makes the Gamma Ray Blaster the best energy weapon in the game is its burst mode, but that has a -40% Chance to Hit penalty, so if you don't do what I did and give Energy Weapons to your leader, then the Leadership aura bonus could help with overcoming that.

With Leadership aura and laser sights all your Rangers could have decent chance to hit without investing more than 2 skill points for the first level of Energy Weapons. All the Dugan robots seem to give a bonus to hitting them with any weapon, and the same thing applies to Slicer Dicers. Sure, Precision Strikes might not be very viable with only the first level of the skill, but ordinary energy weapon damage should work just fine.

Disclaimer: I haven't actually used handguns, submachine guns, shotguns, or heavy weapons a lot. They all have the main problem of not having enough range, and for close range fighting I prefer melee attacks. But I aim to try out SMGs and heavy weapons next playthrough. In this playthrough have two NPCs with handgun and shotgun, and they rarely get to use their weapons because I prefer to keep them out of harm's way unless the damage they can do is worth risking some harm. And that hasn't been the case. But the best shotgun in the game has the highest damage/AP with its three round burst, and while it has lower Penetration that other weapons it's also an area cone attack, so maybe those even out whenever two or more targets get caught in the same burst?

[Amanoob105]

Handguns are basically the brawl of guns. Lower damage for a lower cost to shoot (so more shots in a round) and the skill gives it a higher crit chance than other guns.
They are also one of the few guns that comes with a bonus to hit when in CQC.

SMGs lack in armor pen and damage per bullet but make up for it in damage with bullets (so, your basic DAKKA gun). Their good when pared with pistols letting you pick between the options of precision crits or "eat bullets DAKKA". Like pistols they have a bonus to hit in CQC.
They also pair well with the psychopath quirk letting you quickly get the high bonuses from it.

Both of these also make for good backups for pairing with longer range weapons.

Shotguns in this game are weird. They shoot in a cone that can hit more than one enemy at a time and while they can do single dmage as well as other guns can do much the same dmage to multiple targets.
Their lack of range (with weapon mods, always mod for range over spread) means they are best used one a person with a high movement letting them get in the best angles to hit the most targets at once. As such they are best put on someone you made yourself who is, in turn, made for this job than trying to find a recruit that has "good enough" stats for the job.
This can let you finish off weakened enemys while still bringing down the health of other targets. They also have a habit of destroying any cover that is in the blast cone giving them some extra use there.
Early game shotguns are....A bit lackluster and the most likely reason most players don't like them. Late game ones will make 1/3rd to 1/2 of the healthbar of anyone that is in rage evaporate. As well as any of their friends that are to close to them (and with the help of a "certain skill book" can be turned into what is basically a short range, reuseable rocket rocket launcher).
Early game stick to ones with high mag over high dmage, or you will spend more actions reloading that you will shooting. Because their ammo is cheap you can easily afford to spam lots of low damage shots over a few somewhat better damage shots.
Once you start finding burst-fire shotguns they quickly become much, much better weapons.

Heavy weapons in the early game are best used as panic buttons. If it's way to big and way to close shoot it, otherwise save the ammo.
Mid to later game when you have the skill to land your shots more often, money is no longer a problem for ammo and you have one of the better heavy guns you will make a lot of enemys disappear into a red mist.
Until then it is a good idea to have your heavy weapons guy have a backup weapon that doesn't use the same ammo types (I normally make mine melee users).

[Gillsing]

Originally posted by Amanoob105:

Handguns are basically the brawl of guns. Lower damage for a lower cost to shoot (so more shots in a round) and the skill gives it a higher crit chance than other guns.

While higher chance to crit is certainly brawly, I don't feel that Brawling attacks have a lower cost to attack at 3 AP (apart from the 2 AP sap gloves, but Penetration 0 isn't going to do anything to Armor 6+). When it comes to faster melee attacks, that'd be bladed weapons, since many of them can get down to 2 AP, which is 50% faster and good for Precision Strikes and Applied/Stunning/Staggering Force.

Originally posted by Amanoob105:

Late game ones will make 1/3rd to 1/2 of the healthbar of anyone that is in rage evaporate. As well as any of their friends that are to close to them (and with the help of a "certain skill book" can be turned into what is basically a short range, reuseable rocket rocket launcher).

Ah yes, some shotguns have a x2.0 critical damage bonus, unlike most other firearms that have only x1.5 or lower. Seems like it might be a good idea to back up a Penetration 6 shotgun with Bullet-Ridden from a heavy machine gun, plus Precision Strikes to the torso from quick AP 2-4 attacks. Preferably 2 AP attacks from a Makeshift Sword, or 3 AP attacks from a Proton Axe. Or 3 AP handgun attacks, but those wouldn't be as strong as a Proton Axe, but still within danger-to-the-Ranger distance.

Because reducing Armor 8 to 6 would mean 100% damage instead of only 70% damage, which would be a 43% increase. And Armor 8 instead of 10 would mean 70% damage instead of only 40%, which is 75% as much. And with lucky Precision Strikes the effect would be greater: Armor 7 instead of 10 would mean 80% damage instead of 40%, or even 100% damage for the best Precision Strike result, which wouldn't then need Bullet-Ridden to bring Armor 10 down to 6.

[SnapSlav]

Some people are snobs who think there's only one size that fits all. My latest game was created specifically as a "f u" to a user who thought like you described... that certain weapons just "suck", and where one person might say "weapon A has this strength and that weakness", they would just spout "they suck, period!" Bottom line, don't listen to naysayers like that...

A correction before I offer my own summary...

Originally posted by Gillsing:

Then again, the two-shot burst attack with the best assault rifle costs 8 AP, and it would be tricky to get two of those per turn

Uh, 100% FALSE, man. I'm not sure where you're getting that from. NO Assault Rifle costs 8AP for any firing mode in DC. The best cost 6-7 AP for full burstfire.

...

So what makes the weapons good or bad, and how does this change over the course of the game?

2 things gradually increase as the game goes on: enemy armor, and enemy initiative. So as the fights get tougher, enemies will move sooner and more frequently, and you'll require higher Penetration weapons to deal the best damage to them. A couple things MASSIVELY spike near the end of the game: number of enemies per fight, and the size of arenas where combat takes place. The end-game battles will be marathons of closing distance to reach your opponents and dealing with DOZENS of foes, several fights of which will necessitate overcoming both of these challenges simultaneously!

So this means weapons with good damage output and long range will increasingly outshine other weapons as the game gets closer to the end. Clearly, this means Sniper Rifles and Assault Rifles will stand out above the rest, and they do.

Assault Rifles are the king of do-it-all convenience. They can dish out significant damage, they can pelt from a distance, and they can efficiently target weak points on enemies. They're not the BEST at anything, but they're 2nd best at most categories, making them a solid weapon. Sniper Rifles are less versatile because of their weight, costly/heavy ammo, and being slightly slower, but they more than make up for it with their unmatched damage output, which is both due to their raw damage values and high Penetration, and their range.

Shotguns suffer all game long from having average Penetration, and they make up for this by dealing AOE damage in a cone. This is, however, somewhat mitigated by their shorter range. If any of the drawbacks of Shotguns was buffed, they might be too good, but as it is, they are okay. However (though it may be totally anecdotal) I cannot understate that MY Shotgunner ended up outshining all but my primary sniper in damage output by the end of the game.

The weapons with shorter range suffer significantly from opportunity costs. AP spent running to get into range is AP not being spent shooting your weapon. This is somewhat mitigated by enemies making frequent use of cover, basically necessitating that EVERY character to a better position, but still, the longer ranged weapons means they have far more options in terms of where they can fire from when repositioning. This realilty plagues melee weapons the worst, for obvious reasons. Not only do you spend AP repositioning, but since few enemies will be right next to you when you do, you'll need to reposition after EVERY kill.

As a rule, burstfire modes tend to deal more damage per AP, however they deal much less damage per bullet. This means that weapons which specialize in firing many bullets (SMGs and HWs in particular) will have THE best damage-to-AP ratio. This does not take net damage output (AC vs Penetration) into account, however, so again, ARs and SRs ultimately outshine the rest. But early in the game when AC is much lower, automatic weapons will appear much more potent. Then again, combat skills will be lower, the weapons less accurate, so the accuracy penalty these weapons suffer will make them seem less appealing than they might appear on paper.

Another nail in the coffin of all other weapons besides ARs and SRs is mods. Weapon Mods have a huge impact on the power of weapons, and ONLY ARs and SRs can utilize 4 Weapon Mods simultaneously. One of the major drawbacks of EWs is their lack of mod availability, making them less accurate than their ballistic cousins. Similarly, while SMGs look weaker than HWs on paper, the inability to attach mods to HWs makes them suffer in performance compared to the more compact SMGs.

So if you NEVER take aimed shots, Sniper Rifles are still strong by default. If you actually do try to play smart, Sniper Rifles are even stronger, but Assault Rifles will also be a very potent runner up.

My ranking of weapons would go as follows:
10/10 Sniper Rifles
9/10 Assault Rifles
7/10 Energy Weapons
6/10 Heavy Weapons
6/10 Sub Machine Guns
6/10 Shotguns
6/10 Handguns
5/10 Bladed
4/10 Blunt
3/10 Brawling

These are, however, merely numbers, and they don't take into account individual battles, or clever strategies, and I completely ommited RPGs and Grenades. So take that ranking with a grain of salt. Besides, ranking them in their overall level of "power" doesn't mean every player will enjoy them the same.

DISCLAIMER: As always seems to be the case, I have to reiterate that I do NOT advocate for "only one way to play". I encourage players to try any strategies or styles of play. Often other players concoct interested strategies that I wouldn't think of, so just best I've broken down the pros and cons of all the weapons doesn't mean that you can't rock a team with SMGs and have fun with it! "Variety is the spice of life" they say, and while you COULD kick some serious a** with a team full of snipers, you might also tire of how repetitive and samey it gets...

[Gillsing]

Originally posted by SnapSlav:

Originally posted by Gillsing:

Then again, the two-shot burst attack with the best assault rifle costs 8 AP, and it would be tricky to get two of those per turn

Uh, 100% FALSE, man. I'm not sure where you're getting that from. NO Assault Rifle costs 8AP for any firing mode in DC. The best cost 6-7 AP for full burstfire.

Uh... oops?

Originally posted by Gillsing:

... unlike most other firearms that have only x1.5 or lower.

Another mistake on my part, as 'most' firearms seem to have critical damage of around x1.7, and not lower than x1.5, and with some sniper rifles having x2.0, making them even better.

My experience with sniper rifles vs assault rifles is heavily distorted by the fact that my sniper has only a single level in the skill, while my gunner has ten levels. I should probably have put more points into Sniper Rifles, but I wanted to play around with Applied/Stunning/Staggering Force and Bloodthirsty.

[SnapSlav]

As an addendum: A major factor that influences the way the different weapons "evolve" as the game progresses is Precision Shots.

Since Precision Shots allow you to slow down enemies, lower their accuracy, lower their armor, or cause them to attack each other / do bonus damage, depending on the part of the body being targeted, this really opens up options once accuracy gets good enough to permit attempting Precision Shots without wasting your ammo. Mods will push your combat prowess to "decent" early on, and a combination of Mods, Leadership, skill levels, Trinkets, and cover bonuses will allow you to eventually make regularly accurate Precision Shots. So as the game progresses, you will shift from simply hitting enemies to targeting enemies in a specific sequence to maximize your deadliness.

Precision Shots don't impact the AP cost of weapons, but they do apply an accuracy penalty, depending on the target, and all but Headshots reduce damage. Headshots increase damage by 40% (1.4x multiplier) with a rare chance to cause enemies to attack their allies instead of you. Torso/Chasis shots lower armor between 1-4. Leg shots reduce Combat Speed between .6-1, possibly even reducing their AP, causing serious immobility (may be bugged, however, as any "Crippled" status effect only lasts 1 turn). Lastly targing arms/forelegs reduces accuracy 30-50% and may even destroy their weapon, making them effectively harmless.

Weapons which do not allow for Precision Shots therefore do not "evovle" in their strategy as the game progresses, at least not to the same degree. These include Shotguns, SMGs, HWs, and explosives. Everything else can make Precision Shots.

Sometimes, the AP cost of a shot matters more than the weapon damage, if your goal is to make Precision Shots to snag the edge in a fight. This is why ARs are more versatile than SRs, because 4 or 5 AP is more suitable to make a Precision Shot than 6 or 7 AP. As always, though, range is an ever-present factor, otherwise half of the Handguns would be overpowered for their utility as quick ranged attacks to a targeted weakness.

...

Originally posted by Gillsing:

Uh... oops?

I'm sure you realize I'm not dogging on you for any personal reasons. Our interactions have been, by my estimate, perfectly civil for the most part. I'm just being precise. =)

Speaking of mistakes... I'm curious, do you have any idea where you got those numbers? I have a feeling that quite a few players are getting improper numbers because "some" guides written for DC weren't properly updated to reflect the changes between Vanilla and DC. Firing modes adding 2 AP to make a headshot is one such update, which some guides incorrectly assert means that ARs will cost 8-9 AP to fire headshots in bursts. Similarly, guides with this kind of error also state that headshots do a flat damage increase and ignore Crit, which is 100% false.

So I wonder, sometimes, if some players are getting misinformation cause some guides never bothered to update themselves after the game got a complete overhaul, or even after a couple patches...

[Gillsing]

Originally posted by SnapSlav:

Speaking of mistakes... I'm curious, do you have any idea where you got those numbers?

I'm pretty sure I just mixed them up with the numbers for the Jackhammer. The weapon list I copied from the inXile forum[forums.inxile-entertainment.com] says that the G41 has 5 / 7 AP attacks, not 6 / 8 AP. And in my game Ralphy even has a G41, so I should have known.

But speaking of being precise, Precision Strikes to the head says x1.35 damage, and Precision Strikes to the arms reduce accuracy by either 25% or 50%. Destroying weapons can be a bad idea though. In one game my brawlers both took the Free-For-All perk, and ganged up on a heavy RSM gunner, and what must have been a random 10% Precision Strike effect caused his weapon to explode and do collateral damage to not only him, but also to the two Rangers within melee distance. Pretty annoying!

[red255]

I recall playing thru AZ on supreme jerk with 3 similiar build characters for damage.

the assault rifle user had 12,000 damage dealt, the Sniper and Bladed were around 10,000 damage dealt.

So if you want personal run down of weapon types.

Assault rifle is king especially with the full metal jacket +1 PEN perk. as the M16 is just that good.

Sniper rifle does great really early snipers not even counting the bullpup in rail nomad (random loot box) or the M24

Shotguns, SMG and Heavy weapons are too short range. at that range I'd rather use a melee weapon to get around cover use and needing ammo and jamming. apparently people like to combo SMG with Psychopath and Blunt to crank critical hit chance then whack em with the stick.

too involved, I'd just get them dead with the melee weapon and call it a day.

Energy weapons. Can't crit. so theres not alot of point in sinking a whole lot of skill points into the skill. Robots generally don't use cover so a couple points and leadership should allow you to use them to harrass robots. Ammo is plentiful. using science skill with the perk gets you more ammo, and you can use science skill to overclock a friendly robot like Vax over and over.
also useful for pelting things with targetted shots from range when your melee don't want to close just yet.

Pistol. forgot about pistol, basically like a SMG but can make targetted shots. enemies drop these in AZ so they aren't the worst.

Bladed/brawling and blunt.
these are the flavors of melee. I prefer Bladed. using a Hatchet in AZ and a proton axe in LA, for a dedicated Melee build. weapon gets heavy with the additional mods.

For someone like a sniper who wants a back up melee weapon Id go brawling.

Blunt is something thats for the criticals lower critical chance than bladed and higher AP cost so its less reliable to crit when you need it. unless you increase your critical chance some how.

[SnapSlav]

Originally posted by red255:

the assault rifle user had 12,000 damage dealt, the Sniper and Bladed were around 10,000 damage dealt.

So if you want personal run down of weapon types.

Assault rifle is king especially with the full metal jacket +1 PEN perk. as the M16 is just that good.

Just like melee weapons will shine at the beginning of the game, when it's easier, due to how their lack of ammo requirements overcome the early-in inaccuracy, but end up becoming undesirable by the end of the game... Assault Rifles will outshine Sniper Rifles due to the difference in AP costs, but by the end of the game when the costs are virtually identical, and the Penetration becomes a notable factor, SRs will overtake any other weapon type in terms of damage. Provided, of course, other things being equal. Cause if your one and only sniper has crap CI, well then their numbers will be down because they rarely get to act! XD

Originally posted by red255:

Shotguns, SMG and Heavy weapons are too short range. at that range I'd rather use a melee weapon to get around cover use and needing ammo and jamming. apparently people like to combo SMG with Psychopath and Blunt to crank critical hit chance then whack em with the stick.

too involved, I'd just get them dead with the melee weapon and call it a day.

Or, chuck a grenade! Granted, this becomes less viable by the time enemies have more than 100 HP, but rather than take excellent cover, only to get out of your cover to shoot at someone in cover, you can just toss some grenades into their precious cover and you get to stay in your excellent formation! =)

Originally posted by red255:

Energy weapons. Can't crit. so theres not alot of point in sinking a whole lot of skill points into the skill. Robots generally don't use cover so a couple points and leadership should allow you to use them to harrass robots.

This is looking at Energy Weapons in completely the wrong way. Conductive bonus damage is BETTER than "Crit", and you want to HIT the robots, which is why you invest levels into the skill. Speaking from experience, a character with maxed EW skill and end-game mods on the best weapon, without Leadership, didn't have enough accuracy to consistently land headshots on robots. Likewise, stopping short of maxing the skill but still benefitting from Leadership won't be enough, either. Headshots don't influence Crit at all in DC, so the damage multiplier benefits EWs too.

Bottom line, the advice of "don't get your primary weapon skill to level 10 cause reasons" is TERRIBLE advice. If for some reason a player has a "backup" Energy Weapon that isn't their primary, and just firing a burst off is better damage against a robot than their primary weapon, then sure. But if the character is a EW specialist, the ability to make Precision Shots when they're up against non-conductive targets, and make Precision Shots to the head when they're up against really deadly robots, is CRITICAL to their effectiveness... as irony would have it (regarding the name).

[red255]

I know the best sniper rifle is the Anti material rifle and the best AR is the G41 What Burst mode EW would you like to compare them to?

In AZ its reasonably clear, the M16, M24 and Pulse rifle.

[Gillsing]

There are no unique assault rifles or sniper rifles in Arizona that do more damage than the M16 and M24, respectively. But with high enough bonuses to Chance to Hit, the Gamma Ray Blaster's burst mode outdamages the Pulse Rifle, and later, with a Laser Sight, even the top tier Ion Beamer. So why not compare that unique weapon to the other weapons? Is it because it doesn't become available until fairly late in Arizona unless you beeline for it? Is it because only one Ranger could use it? Is it because you always pick up Pizepi Joren, so there is never any need for a created Ranger to get the skill?