Are energy weapons really that useless?

[Tryclyde]

I've read up about energy weapons and people seem to dismiss them because there are not that many conductive enemies in the game.
I'm thinking, is it not possible to pair EW on a demolition user and use explosives?
EW can also be used to finish off non conductive targets that are on low health for example. I've had a few situations where an enemy was on low health and it seemed like a 'waste' of an expensive round like sniper ammo or an entire burst from an SMG.
I know ammo is a non issue at some point, but I can't help but theorize on how to implement an underused weapon skill.

Same goes for heavy weapons. I never used them, why are they considered bad (or, not min/max friendly:)

[Gillsing]

Energy Weapons aren't useless, but I guess that in most cases they're worse than assault rifles and sniper rifles. I gave the skill to my Leadership Ranger, because I liked the glow. Bit of a mistake, seeing as the burst from the Gamma Ray Blaster has such a hefty penalty that it could really have benefited from the Leadership accuracy bonus.

Other than that, laser pistols only use 3 AP and penetrate any Armor, so that's good for Precision Strikes. Which is good when the 3 AP pistol doesn't have enough Penetration to do any damage to a Armor 10 target. Sure, there are good enough pistols for that, but I didn't have one at the time.

I saved a bunch of skill points and tried a heavy weapon (Minigun) for my heavy armor Ranger. Unlike rifles, heavy weapons only get the range penalty when fired at targets that are too close, whereas rifles get a huge penalty when an enemy is standing too close, regardless of how far away the target is. So that informed my choice, since the heavy armor Ranger moves slowly enough that enemies have no problem staying within melee range, and I wanted the ability to take out the few enemies that have weapons that can do a little damage through all that armor. Having an adjacent enemy is also needed to get +1 Armor from Self-Defense, so a powerful longer range weapon that isn't hampered by adjacent enemies was desired, and heavy weapons fit that bill. Maybe a long-barrelled SMG would have equal range though?

[Tryclyde]

Thanks for sharing your experience. Appreciated :)

Did you have a bladed ranger and later on added heavy weapons or just get bladed to 3 for the self defense perk?

[Gillsing]

Just Bladed 3 for Self-Defense, as my original plan was to get Blunt Weapons to 6 for the Shoulder the Load perk, which came in handy when the Power Armor reduced Combat Speed by an entire meter/AP, and I don't know how long it'll be until I find the first Pseudo-chitin Armor.

[Tryclyde]

Also Hardened and Reinforced plating (from weaponsmithing 8) perks for added armor?
How is this working for you, taking damage wise? Which difficulty are you on?

[Gillsing]

Difficulty doesn't matter that much, as Armor-Penetration=6 reduces all damage to zero, but it's Ranger difficulty. I tested the Minigun against a bunch of conventional weapons, with a few explosives people, who seemed reluctant to blast their own friends who got close to my lone Ranger. Had to prioritise a couple of snipers who had enough Penetration (9) to punch through Armor 14 (Power Armor 9, Thick-Skinned +2, Perks +3), but overall that combat went quite well. That Ranger also has Field Medic for self-healing, with the Stimpaks perk for free healing every combat turn. My real plan for that battle is to have the rest of the team take part so they don't miss out on the XP. But I'm not sure how well that would work.

The armoured Ranger has performed very well against God's Militia though, since they don't have energy weapons. Just walk out into the open an attract attention, so they don't fill the other Rangers with holes. The occasional grenade is easily survived and healed. Not sure how I would play without at least one nigh invulnerable Ranger.

[SnapSlav]

Gotta love how this EXACT question keeps popping up, same wording, same title! =D

As Gillsing explained, EWs are basically just shunned. They're perfectly adequate weapons. The problem is that Assault Rifles and Sniper Rifles are just so damned GOOD that anything else pales in comparison. That didn't stop me from thoroughly enjoying my Energy and Shotgun specialists. Didn't matter that most of my targets took reduced damage when I hit a group of 7 with a burst of shotgun fire, because that one ranger just did the same amount of damage it would've taken 5 rangers to do, and for a fraction of the price in ammo! And the way that robots just MELT to Energy blasts!

If you want to make the game easy mode, give everybody AR or SR weapon skills, and sell any ammo type that isn't for those and buy only those. For a brief while in the early game you won't notice much difference between any of the weapon types, but pretty soon you'll notice that any rangers who aren't SR or AR specialists just won't be getting ALL the kills! Ergo, who needs em if they're not contributing?

Well I happen to like what they did, as explained above. But there are other reasons to get them!

Ammo is one of those reasons. Cells and Shells never change no matter how far you get into the game. Meanwhile all other weapon types will cycle through increasingly-expensive and rarer ammo types. So it gets more and more expensive to keep up the habit of using the "best" weapons as it would to just fuel the "disliked" ones. It's also easier to come by them. You might also find yourself getting a weapon upgrade, and after looking at the numbers you're super excited for your lucky ranger to start using this awesome new weapon... only to realize you don't have any ammo for it, because it takes an entirely new size of ammo that you haven't found yet.

Mod availability is another reason. Different weapon types use different mods. If everyone is usinng the same weapon types, then everyone is competing for the same mods, and ARs and SRs all use the same mods. Meanwhile Energy Weapons don't have conventional rounds, so they don't use magazine mods, nor barrel mods. This does mean that they can't get the bonuses from these mods, but you'd really only be missing out on the accuracy bonuses from Long Barrels. Reload speed isn't that important, and ammo capacity isn't that important either, and Energy Weapons can't jam, so decreased jamming probability doesn't matter either!

I took up the "challenge" to make a squad that AVOIDS the "best" weapons and sticks strickly to all these ignored weapon types, just to prove to all the haters that they're full of s**t. Haven't really had the time to do it (and this game is LONG, so it can take a while) but I made the team, and it's been real fun so far. These weapons are quite fine, they're just not overpowered like "the best". =)

There actually isn't a shortage of conductive enemies at all, particularly in the late-game! But you won't find many in the early game, though they still exist. Also, rather counter-intuitively, while EVERY robot/synth is a conductive target, cyborgs are not. Go figure! =/

As for Heavy Weapons... well they can't be modded, and they jam often because each bullet fired is its own chance to jam, and they chew through ammo like you wouldn't believe. Those are the 3 big reasons why they're not popular. But they DO have some unique and incredible Perks that make them quite nifty! For the most part, SMGs are basically superior to HWs in every sense except that they have inferior Armor Penetration (by 1) and shorter ranger. Otherwise, you'd be better off using SMGs. BUT the best weapon in the game is a unique HW, and it's absolutely ridiculous when you get it. Doesn't necessarily make specializing in HWs worthwhile if only to use that gun at the end of the game, but you will be swimming in spare SP by then, so you can have one of your alternate weapon specialists switch into HWs at the end of the game and use it to one-shot bosses.

Originally posted by Tryclyde:

I'm thinking, is it not possible to pair EW on a demolition user and use explosives?

You had EXACTLY the same thought as I did!

My initial Leader was an Energy specialist who doubled in Demolitions. This meant that she was the go-to spotter as well as hacker. Thematically I figured this meant she should be the Smart A** too, so she was that, as well. She wasn't all that good for combat, since most of her attribute points were invested into INT 10 and CHA 8, but she leveled up super quick thanks to that Charisma, and she had max SP/lvl because of that Intelligence, so she was swimming in SP, and she made for a very capable leader outside of combat. She wasn't bad at combat, she just wasn't great at it...

Depending on how aspy you are, you may or may not do a whole lotta "planning" when creating your team... Depending on how you plan your team, you may choose who trains what skills because of how they synergize with each other. Energy Weapons synergize naturally with Computer Science and Alarm Disarm, because of the Perks that they get, for the same reason that tanks will wish to specialize in Brute Force as well as melee weapons. Some Quirks synergize well with some Perks, some just kinda cancel each other out.

Despite how "one way or the highway" the popular meta might be, practically speaking, there's ALL KINDS of ways to design your characters! I know I had a lot of fun just designing my "challenge accepted" squad... XD

[Tryclyde]

Thanks for the replies.

You guys comfirmed my thought of these weapons simply not being min/max friendly.
The stuff you find on some guides make it sound EW are the worst thing that ever happened and putting points in it will make you beg for death :)

[SnapSlav]

Originally posted by Tryclyde:

The stuff you find on some guides make it sound EW are the worst thing that ever happened and putting points in it will make you beg for death :)

I suspect those guides treat them that way out of not adjusting to how they were changed from vanilla to DC. I noticed that many of the guides I read for the DC version had inaccuracies because they carried over advice that applied to the vanilla version, rather than updated/changed information that applied to the DC version. I recall reading some scathing indictments of EW that only made sense when I played vanilla.

[red255]

Energy weapons cannot crit.

as such a minor skill point investment is all you ever need. Robots are easy to hit. the BULK of what you get from dropping more skill points in is critical hit chance.

so you can use energy weapons just fine with a few points in and some leadership and weapon mods increasing accuracy to relevant levels.

but they are perfectly usable. a full team in AZ with pulse rifles on burst vs a slicer dicer first strike. lets say 21 shots, 50% odds 12 shots hit.

you'll do a substantial amount of damage to the disk.

I just wouldn't recommend sinking mastery with them, as all you are getting is chance to hit.

[SnapSlav]

Originally posted by red255:

the BULK of what you get from dropping more skill points in is critical hit chance.

No, you want higher levels in ANY skill for the CtH% increase, not the crit.

Increased Crit is great for the weapon types that actually have huge Crit, like pistols, blades, fists, and rifles, but you go from hitting enemies to actually targeting them, and that requires high CtH%. Since targeted shots have an accuracy penalty, and since burstfire has an accuracy penalty, you won't get consistent burst shots on a robot's CPU with only a "minor skill point investment".

That's part of the buff that Energy Weapons got with the DC changes, because targeted shots would still deal increased damage, despite being unable to deal critical damage. These are not Crits, so it still works. So you wanna go for harder-to-hit targeted shots eventually (preferably by Damonta) and to do that successfully, mods, buffs, and also maxed weapon skill are all needed. This is particularly true of EW that can't use Long Barrels.