Wasteland 2: Director's Cut

Wasteland 2: Director's Cut

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Teddio Oct 17, 2018 @ 11:19am
Armor stacking (theory)
The max armor I can think of wearing on a character is 14, and one point being conditional if a character is close or not, so 15 if you use bladed weapons. 14 is enough to shrug off everything except max tier blunt and sniper weapons, and energy weapons would fry you of course. Unless I am missing something and it can be buffed further, armor seem incredibly strong if stacked appropriately, and maybe even broken if the damage calculation worked in tiers of 5, not 6. In Arizona, a class of 11 (achievable with the right perks) would be enough to make you immune against M16s, the strongest AR for that area of the game.
Last edited by Teddio; Oct 17, 2018 @ 11:19am
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Showing 1-15 of 49 comments
SnapSlav Oct 17, 2018 @ 1:20pm 
Correct, you can get enough armor to mitigate most forms of damage.

It can look broken if all you do is look at the damage mitigation and the possible AC vs Pen across both halves of the game (with the obvious exception of conductive weakness), but it's actually quite balanced. For one thing, stacking AC values REALLY slows down the ranger who's stacking them. The normal CS penalty from Heavy armors combined with the base CS reduction from Thick Skinned is pretty significant. Furthermore, to fully stack all of these demands significant SP investment into multiple non-combat Skills, so the ranger in question cannot practically be 1-INT to sink the necessary SP for these AC stacking Perks. Furthermore, you can only take 1 Perk every 4 levels, so they can't max out their AC (for the area) until level 12 at the earliest, at doing so limits them from taking other Perks as well.

That being said, shrugging off most forms of damage works really well particularly on melee characters (since they will be in the crosshairs most of the time), and both Blunt and Bladed offer Perks that benefit Heavy armor. Bladed offers more AC and Blunt offers CS buffs to mitigate the not-insignificant CS penalties they're suffering. Practically speaking, they can't have BOTH to get every possible "perfect tank" Perk. But Weaponsmithing is a crucial Skill, and Mechanical Repair is a very useful skill, and a character will make great use of the Tool Trinket to boost the 3 associated skills, 2 of which help out Heavy armor. And it's not unimaginable to have these both, a combat skill (or even two), and be able to level all of these with only 3SP/lvl with 4-INT.

A tank with the CLASSIC of 2-1-4-8-8-4-1 is really, really good to get near-max CS, near-max melee Crit damage, good CI, good AP, good Evasion, as well as have enough SP/lvl to invest in the necessary Skills to get these AC stacking Perks. They won't be able to invest in other utility Skills, however, but they'll be a fierce combatant. They'll have considerable hp, excellent AC, and even against lasers they'll have the increased damage reduced considerably.
Gillsing Oct 17, 2018 @ 1:58pm 
This is why I consider one Thick-Skinned Ranger to be a really good idea. And also one Ranger with max Combat Initiative, for situations where heavy armor doesn't provide enough protection. Depending on the situation, each one of these can handle hordes of enemies all on their own. Preferably being all alone too, so they other Rangers don't get hurt by not having enough armor, or not being quick enough on their feet.

Heavy armor can also be combined with Charisma 10 and Intelligence 10, making that Ranger a heavy armor leader-medic skill monkey who can self-heal all those minor 20% damage attacks and occasional explosives, Max Combat Initiative doesn't leave room for much else, though Intelligence 4 is attainable, and even someone with Intelligence 1 can cover a couple of skills (Hard 'Talk' and Brute Force, both for their combat perks). Though that requires not maxing a combat skill until close to level 40. Which I guess can be taken as a sign of how incredibly powerful max Combat Initiative is. It's like the Ranger with the highest skill level says when they take over: "Stand back, this is a job for an expert." (Though that job has become significantly more difficult after Arizona, where it was easy.)
Last edited by Gillsing; Oct 17, 2018 @ 1:58pm
Gillsing Oct 17, 2018 @ 3:12pm 
Originally posted by SnapSlav:
Furthermore, to fully stack all of these demands significant SP investment into multiple non-combat Skills, so the ranger in question cannot practically be 1-INT to sink the necessary SP for these AC stacking Perks.
I disagree. This is theorycraft for a second playthrough that probably won't happen:

C:2 L:1 A:5+5 S:8 S:1 I:1 C:10 6+1 AP CI:10+5 Quirk: Thick-Skinned
Drinks alcohol for +3 Strength for 300 seconds (+1 AP +2 Strength with these attributes, the -2 Speed and -2 Intelligence have no effect)

Skills: Leadership 9+1 (36 sp), Bladed Weapons 3 (6 sp), Field Medic 7 (24 sp,), Weaponsmithing 7+1 (24 sp), total 90 sp by level 36 with 8 Arizona shrines,
Field Medic would be 6+1 (18 sp) if saving Highpool, since then the skill book could be used.

7 Perks: Hardened (4), Self Defense (8), Stimpaks (28?), Reinforced Plating (32), Taunt (12), Infuriate (16), Enrage (20)

5 perks until level 48: Samurai (36+), Glancing Strike (36+), Opportune Strike (36+), Strategic Strike (36+), Adrenaline Rush (36+) if putting the rest of the skill points into Bladed Weapons (6 sp+36 sp=42 sp, 48 sp when saving 6 sp on Field Medic, which is the plan for this Ranger)

This should work because in a combat situation where the Ranger is immune to damage it might take some time to whittle down enemies with the Shu-Model Ranger Combat Knife, but that's just the weakest alternative, and that still works. And this particular Ranger would be getting up to 15 XP each time one of five rebellious NPC recruits needs to be calmed down with the Leadership skill, so spending plenty of time in combat isn't exactly a drawback.

Stimpaks would also be healing damage each turn. Possibly damage received from early explosives, before such threats are dealt with through counter explosives or lucky Precise Strikes to the legs to keep pesky grenade nuns from running away from the flight to heaven that have already been booked. Depending on the situation other Rangers could help with any enemies that pose a health risk to their cherished leader.

Originally posted by SnapSlav:
... both Blunt and Bladed offer Perks that benefit Heavy armor. Bladed offers more AC and Blunt offers CS buffs to mitigate the not-insignificant CS penalties they're suffering. Practically speaking, they can't have BOTH to get every possible "perfect tank" Perk.
With Bladed Weapons 3 only costing 6 sp, I don't see why even an Intelligence 1 Ranger couldn't also get Blunt Weapons 6 (18 sp) for Shoulder the Load? It might take time, but the Combat Speed penalty for heavy armors isn't significant until the Power Armor with its -1.0 Combat Speed penalty. And even then Shoulder the Load only gives back +0.25 Combat Speed, which is then further diminished to +0.175 Combat Speed because the Thick-Skinned quirk reduces the final Combat Speed by 30%. Is it still worth it though? Maybe not. Would depend on how much heavy armor combat moving it would require between getting the first Power Armor and getting the Pseudo-Chitin Armor. For armors with -0.6 Combat Speed the same numbers are +0.15 and +0.105, respectively. Barely worth the perk even for someone focusing on Blunt Weapons anyway.
SnapSlav Oct 17, 2018 @ 5:05pm 
Originally posted by Gillsing:
Originally posted by SnapSlav:
Furthermore, to fully stack all of these demands significant SP investment into multiple non-combat Skills, so the ranger in question cannot practically be 1-INT to sink the necessary SP for these AC stacking Perks.
I disagree.
I didn't go into detail explaining my points, but the reason for my statement was following several assumptions. 1) You want your ranger to be combat-competent, rather than a dead-weight tank designed sole to soak up damage, but dish out none. 2) You want your combat-capable ranger to (eventually) invest the full 44 SP into their weapon Skill of choice. 3) "SP investment" implies not simply the bare minimum to acquire a Perk, but to actually make use of the related Skill, long-term, typically investing 24-44 SP into each. You may not wish to carry a weak knife JUST to switch to it before your turn ends to get +1AC (then again, maybe you would, but my suggestion was to not).

But I appreciate your theorycraft to showcase your point! On that note...

Originally posted by Gillsing:
This is theorycraft for a second playthrough that probably won't happen:

C:2 L:1 A:5+5 S:8 S:1 I:1 C:10 6+1 AP CI:10+5 Quirk: Thick-Skinned
Drinks alcohol for +3 Strength for 300 seconds (+1 AP +2 Strength with these attributes, the -2 Speed and -2 Intelligence have no effect)

Skills: Leadership 9+1 (36 sp), Bladed Weapons 3 (6 sp), Field Medic 7 (24 sp,), Weaponsmithing 7+1 (24 sp), total 90 sp by level 36 with 8 Arizona shrines,
Field Medic would be 6+1 (18 sp) if saving Highpool, since then the skill book could be used.

7 Perks: Hardened (4), Self Defense (8), Stimpaks (28?), Reinforced Plating (32), Taunt (12), Infuriate (16), Enrage (20)

5 perks until level 48: Samurai (36+), Glancing Strike (36+), Opportune Strike (36+), Strategic Strike (36+), Adrenaline Rush (36+) if putting the rest of the skill points into Bladed Weapons (6 sp+36 sp=42 sp, 48 sp when saving 6 sp on Field Medic, which is the plan for this Ranger)
I like the idea behind this ranger, although it looks a bit too dead-weight for a large chunk of the early game (then again, many leaders do) for my tastes. The problem with this build is the abysmal CI (10!!!) and AP (6!!!). Obviously these both grow a little bit, however even with 15 CI and 7-9 AP, this is a ranger who is getting outmanuevered by their opponents and the rest of their team constantly, so their job really is to just be a bullet-sponge. AND they're SO SLOW!!! 1-SPD with Heavy armor AND Thick Skinned??? Ouch! CAN this ranger move? XD

I'm also not a fan of 10-CHA builds, as they get no benefit from Spiked Collars, which means you can put another 1-4 points into other Attributes for a less-dead-weight type of ranger. But on the other hand, this does mean they get the most out of their taunting Perks without losing some Leadership radius. Their lack of mobility is compensated for by the extremely large range of their passive Skill.

It certainly does the job, of course. If your tank is STRICTLY designed to be a true tank, not both a tank and a bruiser, then they DON'T need to be the best combatants. But like I said, I don't personally like those builds, so I rarely advocate for them. But what I liked most from your build was the utilization of alcohol (and not just Squeezins) which its SSI of 8-1-1 would get most of the benefits and suffer none of the drawbacks. Inventive way around those drawbacks! I hadn't thought of that utility of getting drunk... very clever.

Originally posted by Gillsing:
Originally posted by SnapSlav:
... both Blunt and Bladed offer Perks that benefit Heavy armor. Bladed offers more AC and Blunt offers CS buffs to mitigate the not-insignificant CS penalties they're suffering. Practically speaking, they can't have BOTH to get every possible "perfect tank" Perk.
With Bladed Weapons 3 only costing 6 sp, I don't see why even an Intelligence 1 Ranger couldn't also get Blunt Weapons 6 (18 sp) for Shoulder the Load? It might take time, but the Combat Speed penalty for heavy armors isn't significant until the Power Armor with its -1.0 Combat Speed penalty.
Nah, the Steel Armor found early on before it gets replaced with the Combat Armor REALLY slows you down. Funnily enough, the worse the Heavy armor, the better the benefit from Shoulder the Load. =/

Originally posted by Gillsing:
Barely worth the perk even for someone focusing on Blunt Weapons anyway.
The "worth it or not" angle depends on the intent of the build. For bruisers, absolutely! Because you need to be able to close the distance to REACH your opponents if you wish to smack em up close and personal, recovering every ounce of lost CS is crucial. But for the pure tanks, maybe not so much. But as I previously stated in my first comment, you're REALLY gonna suffer a lot of CS penalties when you stack both Heavy armors with Thick Skinned.

For my suggested tank (CLASSIC 2-1-4-8-8-4-1 + Thick Skinned) you have good CI and AP, and even fractions of CS will contribute greatly towards closing the distance in a single turn. It won't make much difference in subsequent turns when they're spending half their AP to go from target to target and the rest getting off an attack, but that initial gap close will benefit greatly from Charge! as well as Shoulder the Load. Furthermore, the sooner you close the gap, the sooner Self Defense can actually kick in.

By 40 this character would have 145 SP, and the non-combat Skills this character would invest in are Weaponsmith 7+1 (24 SP), Mechanical Repair 7+1 (24 SP), costing 42-48 SP to get Armor Maintenance and Reinforced Plating (with another 6 to max Mech Repair for usage), and a max weapon Skill brings your SP cost to a total of 92. This gives you room to add other skills to be more than just a tank. It can transition into a gunner of some kind, or a really robust Medic, without running into SP difficulties. It can also work as an effective ranger with Brute Force (36 SP) and/or Hard A** (14 SP), and for those who care about it, these skills work really well with this kind of character, thematically! ^_<
Last edited by SnapSlav; Oct 17, 2018 @ 5:06pm
Gillsing Oct 17, 2018 @ 7:51pm 
Originally posted by SnapSlav:
You may not wish to carry a weak knife JUST to switch to it before your turn ends to get +1AC (then again, maybe you would, but my suggestion was to not).
Oooh, I definitely would. If I was restricting myself for roleplaying reasons I would consider Blunt Weapons woefully inadequate compared to +1 Armor from Bladed Weapons. Stacking Armor bonuses is the focus of the build to begin with. Everything else combat-related is secondary.

Originally posted by SnapSlav:
The problem with this build is the abysmal CI (10!!!) and AP (6!!!). Obviously these both grow a little bit, however even with 15 CI and 7-9 AP, this is a ranger who is getting outmanuevered by their opponents and the rest of their team constantly, so their job really is to just be a bullet-sponge. AND they're SO SLOW!!! 1-SPD with Heavy armor AND Thick Skinned??? Ouch! CAN this ranger move? XD
If I can I usually send in my armoured Ranger alone. Trying to get close enough with the leader for the Leadership bonus to apply usually ends in the leader being targetted and having to retreat. Once the Ranger is all alone with the enemies, there is no outmanoeuvring, because they're not going to flee in panic from their slow-moving doom.

Originally posted by SnapSlav:
I'm also not a fan of 10-CHA builds, as they get no benefit from Spiked Collars, which means you can put another 1-4 points into other Attributes for a less-dead-weight type of ranger. But on the other hand, this does mean they get the most out of their taunting Perks without losing some Leadership radius. Their lack of mobility is compensated for by the extremely large range of their passive Skill.
I want to use the Three-Headed Snake Amulet and then a Pair of Engagement Rings. Charisma 9 plus a Spiked Collar isn't going to bump up Combat Initiative by 3 points. And with cheap tequila 6 AP are retained, which should lead to two swings with a leather-gripped Proton Axe every turn, unless there's movement needed. Costs about 2 AP to move one tile.

Oh, and in order to get as much XP as possible from NPCs trying to go rogue it is necessary to max Charisma, since otherwise the XP for skill use would go down from 15 XP to 13 XP or lower. That's like a 13.33% drop in XP gain from that source! Which is part of what I want to try out: How effective is it to gain XP by mainly calming down a bunch of rowdy recruits during combat?

The plan is really to stand out in the open and thereby attract the attention of all the enemies, while the NPC recruits and the max Combat Initiative Ranger sits in cover or such. Not sure how well that would work, and it certainly wouldn't work in every situation. The original plan was to have six NPC recruits, but I really want to try out an SMG Psychopath to see if +30% chance to hit plus Whack-A-Mole's +15% can be combined to make it worth it to shoot at enemies who are in -50% cover. Normally I just flank them to not waste time and ammo on trying to hit targets behind cover.

Originally posted by SnapSlav:
But what I liked most from your build was the utilization of alcohol (and not just Squeezins) which its SSI of 8-1-1 would get most of the benefits and suffer none of the drawbacks. Inventive way around those drawbacks! I hadn't thought of that utility of getting drunk... very clever.
I thought it was clever too, but it only works when Speed is 1, because otherwise the loss of Combat Initiative makes the extra AP largely pointless. Unless perhaps it's useful to get an extra attack. I tried making high Combat Initiative builds that got at least a net +1 SSI by having Intelligence 1, but Speed 8 instead of 10 made them get lower total AP over time, since they'd get turns less often.

Drinking alcohol before a combat might be a useful way to timestamp when each character takes a turn, since it seems that every time a character takes a turn, at least 2 seconds of duration pass. Which means that in huge battles time passes more quickly, as the many enemies each eat up 2 seconds of duration for any of the consumables. Or that's what I remember when checking how duration changes.

Originally posted by SnapSlav:
Nah, the Steel Armor found early on before it gets replaced with the Combat Armor REALLY slows you down. Funnily enough, the worse the Heavy armor, the better the benefit from Shoulder the Load. =/
Yeah, that might be an issue during AG Center/Highpool, but when that's done, the heavy armor Ranger gets Combat Armor from the Ranger Citadel. So while the Steel Plate has a -0.8 Combat Speed penalty, it's not like Shoulder the Load is likely to be available as an option at that time. Which was my point, really.

Originally posted by SnapSlav:
Originally posted by Gillsing:
Barely worth the perk even for someone focusing on Blunt Weapons anyway.
The "worth it or not" angle depends on the intent of the build. For bruisers, absolutely! Because you need to be able to close the distance to REACH your opponents if you wish to smack em up close and personal, recovering every ounce of lost CS is crucial. But for the pure tanks, maybe not so much. But as I previously stated in my first comment, you're REALLY gonna suffer a lot of CS penalties when you stack both Heavy armors with Thick Skinned.
Oh no, I wouldn't get a perk to get +0.105 Combat Speed regardless of what I intended for my Ranger to be doing. Depending on skills, a Ranger could need any number of perks for stuff that would be more important or more useful. It's about equal to the +0.1 Combat Speed from a single point of the Speed attribute, without any of the other benefits. But for the -1.0 Combat Speed from Power Armor I'd probably be willing to go along with it if I was going to get the skill anyway.
SnapSlav Oct 18, 2018 @ 6:18pm 
Originally posted by Gillsing:
If I was restricting myself for roleplaying reasons I would consider Blunt Weapons woefully inadequate compared to +1 Armor from Bladed Weapons.
Eh, I wouldn't exactly call that "restricting for roleplaying reasons". A hard-RPing character doesn't have middling skills with a weapon just so they can uncharacteristically switch from their favorite weapon to their token knife because somehow they're going to be extra protected with it. Unless your RP character is literally some kind of post-apocalypse ninja who makes his point by holding the smallest knife he can so he discourages his foes when all of their attacks fail to land.

Short version is: why would a "roleplaying" character min-max? Sounds like the OPPOSITE of "roleplaying"!

Originally posted by Gillsing:
Stacking Armor bonuses is the focus of the build to begin with. Everything else combat-related is secondary.
Eh, I suppose so. I mean, they have valuable utility in being a medic AND a mechanic, even if that means their combat utility is EXACTLY to be a distraction. I guess I'm just more sold on the "best defense is a strong offense" so I don't really think much about decoys. My "avoid taking damage" strategy has always been "kill them before they can shoot me".

Originally posted by Gillsing:
Once the Ranger is all alone with the enemies, there is no outmanoeuvring, because they're not going to flee in panic from their slow-moving doom.
LOL. I like that, "slow-moving doom"! XD

Originally posted by Gillsing:
Originally posted by SnapSlav:
I'm also not a fan of 10-CHA builds, as they get no benefit from Spiked Collars, which means you can put another 1-4 points into other Attributes for a less-dead-weight type of ranger. But on the other hand, this does mean they get the most out of their taunting Perks without losing some Leadership radius. Their lack of mobility is compensated for by the extremely large range of their passive Skill.
I want to use the Three-Headed Snake Amulet and then a Pair of Engagement Rings. Charisma 9 plus a Spiked Collar isn't going to bump up Combat Initiative by 3 points. And with cheap tequila 6 AP are retained, which should lead to two swings with a leather-gripped Proton Axe every turn, unless there's movement needed. Costs about 2 AP to move one tile.
Let me clarify, when I said 10-CHA builds "get no benefit from Spiked Collars", I meant their easy "free exp" application of swapping them before earning quest/skill exp. It's the same rationale between "don't max [insert Skill] because you can just use [insert Trinket] and save the SP in the long-run!" You can swap to the THS Trinket for the Leadership boost during combat, since you earn no quest exp during combat, then back to the Collar while earning non-combat exp. It's just a matter of efficiency. You lose a small radius on the Leadership aura, but if your tank is separated from the team (and doesn't need accuracy bonuses to TAKE hits) and the rest of your team is strategically camping behind some cover, you don't need the biggest radius.

Originally posted by Gillsing:
Oh, and in order to get as much XP as possible from NPCs trying to go rogue it is necessary to max Charisma, since otherwise the XP for skill use would go down from 15 XP to 13 XP or lower. That's like a 13.33% drop in XP gain from that source! Which is part of what I want to try out: How effective is it to gain XP by mainly calming down a bunch of rowdy recruits during combat?
I imagine it's more tedious than effective. Think of it this way, if your ranger has 8-CHA then you get 14 exp instead of 15 for every instance of preventing a recruit from going rogue, you only miss out on the exp of 1 rogue for every 15 times you prevent going rogue. Not a big deal, by my estimate.

Presumably you have team members with rogue chances around 20-40% so you don't need max Leadership to successfully prevent rogue, but even if you do, you've got that THS Trinket and the Blix, and your leader is probably investing in Leadership first, so you'll have this available very early on. So for every 2-CHA you deduct to distribute elsewhere, out of every 15 successful Leadership rolls you're only losing the exp of 1. I wouldn't recommend a leader with less than 6-CHA, but 4-CHA is doable. If your team can literally just waste turns to farm rogue attempts, you're losing very little time/exp if you want 1 or 2 more rogue attempts between every 15.

Originally posted by Gillsing:
The plan is really to stand out in the open and thereby attract the attention of all the enemies, while the NPC recruits and the max Combat Initiative Ranger sits in cover or such.
As a sidenote, I'm curious what your "max Combat Initiative" character's build is? Doesn't sound like the meta build... 4-1-10-1-10-1-1 or something?

Originally posted by Gillsing:
I really want to try out an SMG Psychopath to see if +30% chance to hit plus Whack-A-Mole's +15% can be combined to make it worth it to shoot at enemies who are in -50% cover. Normally I just flank them to not waste time and ammo on trying to hit targets behind cover.
Yeah, it's just more worthwhile to flank an enemy. You don't want to reset your counter with Psychopath, so rather than overcome their cover Evasion with stacking Psychopath CtH, just get a better angle on them, and keep the stacks going.

Originally posted by Gillsing:
Yeah, that might be an issue during AG Center/Highpool, but when that's done, the heavy armor Ranger gets Combat Armor from the Ranger Citadel. So while the Steel Plate has a -0.8 Combat Speed penalty, it's not like Shoulder the Load is likely to be available as an option at that time.
It was for me. =P
Not to mention, the plan is to account for the long-haul. As much as I loved the AC-to-CS ratio of Combat Armor, you don't wear it forever, and that Power Amor and Psuedochitin Armor REALLY does slow you down. I see your points about placing greater emphasis on other Perks besides CS stacking ones. I guess my initial tank really was more of a bruiser than he was a tank, which is why I valued his gap-close capabilities as much as I did. Even .2 CS was worth it, to me.

Or maybe my original team of 10-INT Brittle Bones rangers just scarred me... I swear, when you're trying to run the distance of a football field at the pace of a slow crawl, all while being pelted by really deadly robots, you learn the hard way why speed is so highly-valued! XD
Gillsing Oct 18, 2018 @ 7:38pm 
Originally posted by SnapSlav:
Originally posted by Gillsing:
If I was restricting myself for roleplaying reasons I would consider Blunt Weapons woefully inadequate compared to +1 Armor from Bladed Weapons.
Eh, I wouldn't exactly call that "restricting for roleplaying reasons". A hard-RPing character doesn't have middling skills with a weapon just so they can uncharacteristically switch from their favorite weapon to their token knife because somehow they're going to be extra protected with it. Unless your RP character is literally some kind of post-apocalypse ninja who makes his point by holding the smallest knife he can so he discourages his foes when all of their attacks fail to land.

Short version is: why would a "roleplaying" character min-max? Sounds like the OPPOSITE of "roleplaying"!
You can min-max when creating a character and then roleplay the character during the game. So if I was to roleplay a Blunt Weapons heavy armor Ranger by not ending each turn holding a tiny knife, then I would have not chosen Blunt Weapons, since for a heavy armor Ranger the +1 Armor from holding a Bladed Weapon at the end of each turn far outweighs the slight bonus to Combat Speed from Shoulder the Load. And roleplaying is really the only reason why I wouldn't regularly wield the knife just for the +1 Armor. I'll gladly take 0% damage instead of multiple 20% damage hits when surrounded by a gang of leather jerks, or nuns with guns and pistol-packing priests.

Originally posted by SnapSlav:
My "avoid taking damage" strategy has always been "kill them before they can shoot me".
Sadly that does not work for my Rangers, as I made them all focus on non-combat skills while I use cheap tactics to prevent them from taking damage during combat.

Originally posted by SnapSlav:
Let me clarify, when I said 10-CHA builds "get no benefit from Spiked Collars", I meant their easy "free exp" application of swapping them before earning quest/skill exp.
Yeah, I get tired of juggling those spiked collars. Just makes me angry when I get unexpected quest XP and some of my Rangers are still wearing their combat trinkets, or skill trinkets. And sometimes I realise that they're wearing Spiked Collars in combat. Arrrgh. It's a terrible game mechanic and inXile should stop encouraging player to do things that are boring.

Originally posted by SnapSlav:
... and the rest of your team is strategically camping behind some cover, you don't need the biggest radius.
In my experience, not even the maximum radius is enough. Some enemies (nuke pooches) have so high Combat Speed that they're not happy unless they get to run off to bite a Ranger ten tiles away.

Originally posted by SnapSlav:
Originally posted by Gillsing:
Oh, and in order to get as much XP as possible from NPCs trying to go rogue it is necessary to max Charisma, since otherwise the XP for skill use would go down from 15 XP to 13 XP or lower. That's like a 13.33% drop in XP gain from that source! Which is part of what I want to try out: How effective is it to gain XP by mainly calming down a bunch of rowdy recruits during combat?
I imagine it's more tedious than effective. Think of it this way, if your ranger has 8-CHA then you get 14 exp instead of 15 for every instance of preventing a recruit from going rogue, you only miss out on the exp of 1 rogue for every 15 times you prevent going rogue. Not a big deal, by my estimate.
Yeah, I made a mistake with my calculation. I was thinking of my current leader, who had Leadership 9 (waiting for the skill book) until The Blix was acquired thanks to you pointing out that there was an Ag Center reward that affected those skills. So for all of Arizona it was 9 x 1.5 = 13.5 = 13 XP for each rogue chance triggering. For only three NPC recruits.

But for the sake of focus I'm pretty sure I'll stick to Charisma 10 for that Ranger. It might not be optimal for overall performance, but that is not the goal with the character.

Originally posted by SnapSlav:
Presumably you have team members with rogue chances around 20-40% so you don't need max Leadership to successfully prevent rogue, but even if you do, you've got that THS Trinket and the Blix, and your leader is probably investing in Leadership first, so you'll have this available very early on.
Three of my planned recruits will have 30% rogue chance, and the other two will have 50% rogue chance, because the goal is to trigger those rogue chances as often as possible. Though for more precise calculations I should probably see how their Combat Initiatives compare to recruits with lower rogue chances, who might try to go rogue more often than, say, Dan Q (CI 8). I'll have to do a test to see if that whole "30-Combat Initiative" is really the formula the game uses to see how often someone gets to act.
Original plan: Chisel 50%, Vulture's Cry 30%, Takayuki 30%, Pizepi Joren 30%, Dan Q 50%, Ertan 70% (only getting XP for 50% though)

With the SMG Psychopath there would be no space left for Ertan, though I have lately considered the option of simply editing his stats so he can become the min-maxed SMG Psychopath I want to try out. But I really like the Ranger I already made, so probably not.

And with Vulture's Cry I won't be getting The Blix, so that's why I had to roll back my current playthrough all the way to Ranger Citadel. Because my current leader has both of those skills.

Originally posted by SnapSlav:
I'm curious what your "max Combat Initiative" character's build is? Doesn't sound like the meta build... 4-1-10-1-10-1-1 or something?
This is the one I've planned for now:
C:4+4 L:1 A:9+1 S:2 S:10 I:1 C:1 8+3 AP CI:19 Quirk: Psychopath Perks: Tinkerer (among others)

But just recently I thought about an Animal Whisperer:
C:2+5* L:1 A:9* S:2 S:9* I:4 C:1 9+5 AP CI:18+2 Quirk: Brittle Bones
* Cow for +1 Coordination, goat (not Aberforth!) for +1 Awareness, possum for +1 Speed (at level 30ish)

But Vulture's Cry would probably weep if she didn't get to have any animals, so I'm guessing this is not in the cards. Fun theorycrafting though. Exchange Brittle Bones for Way of the Squeezins for an extra Action Point. Certainly a better option than Animal Husbandry, which would also result in an extra Action Point. Or skip extra AP and go with Psychopath. Or something else. And you really need the skill if you want to leave your animals in a safe spot in Los Angeles before heading off into some dastardly ambush that would kill them. Otherwise you wouldn't be able to get them back. Or get the possum in the first place.

Originally posted by SnapSlav:
Originally posted by Gillsing:
I really want to try out an SMG Psychopath to see if +30% chance to hit plus Whack-A-Mole's +15% can be combined to make it worth it to shoot at enemies who are in -50% cover. Normally I just flank them to not waste time and ammo on trying to hit targets behind cover.
Yeah, it's just more worthwhile to flank an enemy. You don't want to reset your counter with Psychopath, so rather than overcome their cover Evasion with stacking Psychopath CtH, just get a better angle on them, and keep the stacks going.
I figure that with +20% from Leadership and maxed Submachine Gun skill the chance to hit might still be 100% after both +30% from Psychopath and +15% from Whack-a-Mole to counter the -50% from the cover. And while my mobile sniper could easily flank from safe distances, I'm not sure how many flanking options a Submachine Gun gets. Might be safer to sit behind available cover, and hope that the enemy thinks the same. In quite a few situations two combatants might end up on different sides of the same cover, and that would be excellent for an SMG, with the +10% chance to hit at close distances. Just as long as there'll be a target out in the open to quickly get the counter up to 10.

Originally posted by SnapSlav:
Or maybe my original team of 10-INT Brittle Bones rangers just scarred me... I swear, when you're trying to run the distance of a football field at the pace of a slow crawl, all while being pelted by really deadly robots, you learn the hard way why speed is so highly-valued! XD
Reminds me of my first team of Charisma 10 Rangers. They were going to level up so fast! Then I found out that the 50% bonus did not apply to combat XP. And later I found out that Combat Initiative is not the same as initiative back in Fallout 1 and 2.
Last edited by Gillsing; Oct 18, 2018 @ 7:42pm
Teddio Oct 18, 2018 @ 9:37pm 
Thanks for the indepth discussion! It gave me a few ideas for smgs, and let me know that there are still better builds to be made out there. I just started building parties in this game, and so far I have made three. The first one was so Terrible that I got stuck on Ag center because I didn't have safe cracking, so I gave up.

The second one was much better, but thick skinned made my melee fighter so horribly slow it made me upset. 1.6 CS isn't enough for a blunt weapon user.

My 3rd one, which is the one I took to ranger difficulty, is really good. My charisma lead has the number quirk that gives her 5,2,5,3,3,9,8 after it works. She got a total or 11 CI with 8 AP, which is solid but could be better. Right now I got an extra attribute point but I don't know where to put it. Don't know the next AP break point, and I am not sure how much benefit I can get out of one more CI. Might go with strength.

The idea of a slow moving death ball got me intrigued, but it honestly sounds like something for subsequent playthroughs. Running around with like 1 CS sounds fun only after I know all the proper shrine and skill books (can't find any) locations so I can get it happening fast and painlessly. Now, move is to important and I don't know the fastest way to hit the key AC levels.

Also CLASSIC builds for future reference would be nice. My last heavy stat based game was new vegas, and that game was so easy to build your toon because of the skilled but not experienced bug which netted an additional +5, and easy implants to hit the stat break points for certain perks. In this game, classic stats can't be adjusted so easily, and they're absolutely essential for proper functioning. CI is hands down the most important stat but I am not sure how high it can go (20?) And what are key break points for key enemies (no derived stats which makes me sad).
Gillsing Oct 18, 2018 @ 11:16pm 
Originally posted by daquan.mart:
Thanks for the indepth discussion! It gave me a few ideas for smgs, and let me know that there are still better builds to be made out there. I just started building parties in this game, and so far I have made three. The first one was so Terrible that I got stuck on Ag center because I didn't have safe cracking, so I gave up.
The trick for Lockpicking and Safecracking is to first visit Rail Nomads Camp and recruit Scotchmo.

Originally posted by daquan.mart:
My 3rd one, which is the one I took to ranger difficulty, is really good. My charisma lead has the number quirk that gives her 5,2,5,3,3,9,8 after it works. She got a total or 11 CI with 8 AP, which is solid but could be better. Right now I got an extra attribute point but I don't know where to put it. Don't know the next AP break point, and I am not sure how much benefit I can get out of one more CI. Might go with strength.
Those stats don't look too impressive considering that you're using Disparnumerophobia. There are a few attributes that should be even to give their full bonuses (Coordination, Strength, Speed and Intelligence), so in order for those attributes to be even on even levels with that quirk, you have to make them uneven during character creation:

C:1+2 L:1 A:6+3 S:4 S:1 I:8 C:7 7+1 AP CI:11+3
turns to this on even levels
C:2+2 L:2 A:7+3 S:5 S:2 I:9 C:8 8+1 AP CI:12+3
(the pluses are for allocating the attribute points when levelling up, start with Awareness until it's maxed on even levels)

Now, I don't think that's a very good allocation of attribute points, because unless you have a good reason, such as drinking alcohol for +3 Strength with no -2 Speed, you should max Speed before raising Awareness or other combat attributes:

C:1 L:1 A:2+5 S:2 S:7 I:8 C:7 7 AP CI:10+5
turns to this on even levels
C:2 L:2 A:3+5 S:3 S:8 I:9 C:8 9 AP CI:12+5

Which looks a little better still. More room to grow Combat Initiative, and no need to level up to get those 9 AP. +1 AP if this Ranger gets the Tinkerer perk (Weaponsmithing 2, 4 sp, usually worth it).

Now, the breakpoints are kind of like moving targets, because while Coordination, Strength, Speed and Intelligence are better at even numbers, three of those attributes also work together to increase Action Points: Strength+Speed+Intelligence divided by 4, rounded down (I guess we call this "SSI"). That is how many AP they contribute to the default 3 AP, plus half Coordination, rounded down.

So my last attribute allocation gets: 3+8+9 = SSI 20 and 20/4 = 5 AP on even levels

In the case of Strength and Intelligence, their main bonuses are Con per level and skill points per level, and those are not affected by temporary bonuses from trinkets or quirks. So that's why I set those to even numbers in character creation. I would normally never set Intelligence to 8, but to 1, 4 or 10, because for those numbers the game is giving +1 skill point/level for 3 attribute points. But for 8 it only gives +2 skill points/level for 7 attribute points instead of 6 attribute points. And then I'd rather have some other Ranger switch out a 4 for 1, or a 1 for a 4, to adjust for the difference between 8 and 10, or 8 and 4.

But with Disparnumerophobia adding +1 to each attribute, Intelligence 10 would miss out on that bonus, and then the SSI would not be evenly divisible by 4, which would mean 1 AP lower. And we can't have that, can we?

Originally posted by daquan.mart:
The idea of a slow moving death ball got me intrigued, but it honestly sounds like something for subsequent playthroughs. Running around with like 1 CS sounds fun only after I know all the proper shrine and skill books (can't find any) locations so I can get it happening fast and painlessly. Now, move is to important and I don't know the fastest way to hit the key AC levels.
My heavy armor Ranger does not 'run around' during combat, which is when Combat Speed is an issue. Outside of combat that Ranger runs at the same speed as the others, unless encumbered by an inventory full of alternative weapons, explosives, weapon mods, or other junk.

When I see a combat situation that looks like it might hurt my lightly armoured Rangers and not hurt my armoured Ranger, I simply have the rest hang back, while the armoured Ranger runs up outside of combat, and once combat starts, the enemies are close and might even charge my Ranger, which is convenient. I wouldn't recommend it against enemies who have special damage effects though, such as poison or bleeding. Because the armor doesn't stop any of that.

Not sure what "key AC levels" would be? Armor levels? That depends on what weapon Penetration the enemies have. In Arizona many of the weapons have Penetration 3, and in those cases Armor 9 would be enough to make someone invulnerable. And that's +5 from Combat Armor (available when you get inside Ranger Citadel), +2 from Thick-Skinned, +1 from Hardened (level 4 perk), and +1 from Self Defense (Bladed Weaons 3, at level 8). No need for Reinforced Plating (Weaponsmithing 8) until after Arizona, when it will be possible to get that skill book without any fighting at all if you're willing to avoid the fighting that the game seems to expect of you. In late Arizona you can get an Armor 7 armor, but until then the Combat Armor is the best that's available.

Originally posted by daquan.mart:
CI is hands down the most important stat but I am not sure how high it can go (20?) And what are key break points for key enemies (no derived stats which makes me sad).
You can see enemies' armor Penetration if you hover with the mouse on their portraits in the initiative queue. You can also see any status effects they're suffering or benefiting from. Most enemies seem to have CI 10-12, but the slicer dicers seem to have CI 15, which makes them very dangerous, as if all their other features weren't enough.

EDIT: This is probably how I would build a combat leader with Disparnumerophobia:

Sacrifices Intelligence for max Combat Initiative
C:1 L:1 A:9 S:3 S:9 I:1 C:4+5 6+1 AP CI:18
on even levels it turns to this
C:2 L:2 A:10 S:4 S:10 I:2 C:5+5 8+1 AP CI:20

Balances Intelligence at the cost of Awareness and Charisma
C:1 L:1 A:7+2 S:4 S:9 I:4 C:2+3 7+1 AP CI:16+2
on even levels it turns to this
C:2 L:2 A:8+2 S:5 S:10 I:5 C:3+3 9+1 AP CI:18+2

I'd start with Leadership 4 (10 sp) and Weapon Skill 1 (2 sp), then get Weaponsmithing 2 by level 4 for the Tinkerer perk, and put all other skill points into Leadership until 7-9 (saving the last level for the skill book). Keep in mind that there are +2 trinkets and also a unique pistol with +1, so stopping at level 7 makes sense. After Arziona there will be trinkets that increase CI, which will have a huge effect on someone with high CI, so only the unique pistol should be left in use during combat.

My current leader has Intelligence 1 with Delayed Gratification, and and left the skill monkey roles to the Perception/Demolition Ranger, and the armoured Ranger (because that Ranger only really needs Strength, which left plenty over for Intelligence). But as I found out, the leader's CI 15 was not enough in late Arizona, so I'd recommend maxing CI. It makes a huge difference. Well, at least when trying to keep Leadership aura-contact with a much faster sniper who's running around.
Last edited by Gillsing; Oct 19, 2018 @ 12:55am
Teddio Oct 19, 2018 @ 2:11am 
Thanks for the build advice. I will put this information to good use on my next run, which would be for supreme jerk.
Gillsing Oct 19, 2018 @ 9:17am 
For Supreme Jerk you might want to focus more on Strength, in case the enemies manage to land an attack, because double damage can kill a Ranger, apparently. And here's some more theorycrafting, this time for a maximum Armor leader with maximum Combat Initiative.

Armoured Leader C:2 L:1 A:7+3 S:4 S:10 I:1 C:3+2 7 AP CI:17+3 Quirk: Thick-Skinned
Can max Combat Initiative by level 30, which seems acceptable. Barely any Leadership aura, but it should be possible to stick close to other Rangers to give them bonuses.

Optional: If Charisma 3 seems sufficient, the attribute points for level 40 and 50 could go into Coordination for +1 AP. If Charisma 3 is insufficient, attribute points could go there sooner, and maybe more of them, at the expense of maximum Combat Initiative. Keeping NPC recruits from going rogue is not connected to the aura, so that is not a concern.

Optional: Raise Intelligence to 4 and take a point each from Coordination, Awareness and Speed, and replace them with animal followers (cow, goat, possum): +1 AP (all the time, not just when Tipsy), +1 skill point/level, no need to put 28-36 skill points into Animal Whisperer until level 30ish when it's time to get a possum. If the goat is not Aberforth it should remain stationary during combat, so if combat is started when this Ranger is in a reasonably safe spot, it should be possible to keep the enemies away from the animals by drawing their attention elsewhere. But maybe this would be a bad idea for a heavy armor Ranger? Or not, since it seems that it would be easier to start combat with a highly mobile Ranger, while the slower Rangers remain behind in favourable positions to attack incoming enemies.

Combat Speeds for different heavy armors, without Air Jordans or Shoulder the Load
Steel Plate Armor: 1.4 m/AP
Combat Armor: 1.68 m/AP
Power Armor: 1.26 m/AP
Pseudo-Chitin Armor: 1,54 m/AP (apparently requires Strength 7, so that's when it's time to start getting Tipsy from alcohol, unless already wanting +3 Strength for +6% Bladed or Blunt damage)
Tipsy: 300 seconds, +3 Strength, -2 Speed, -0 Intelligence -> +1 AP, -1 Combat Initiative, -0.14 Combat Speed, -2% Evasion
Pair of Engagement Rings: -1 AP +3 Combat Initiative
Choice: +5 Combat Initiative, -15% Evasion

Action Points over time, assuming characters get to act every 30-CI 'seconds':
7 AP CI 20: 21 AP/30 'seconds' (Level 30+)
8 AP CI 19: 21,818181818 AP/30 'seconds' (Tipsy)
6 AP CI 23: 25,714285714 AP/30 'seconds' (Pair of Engagement Rings)
7 AP CI 22: 26,25 AP/30 'seconds' (Pair of Engagement Rings and Tipsy)
7 AP CI 25: 42 AP/30 'seconds' (Choice)
8 AP CI 24: 40 AP/30 'seconds' (Choice and Tipsy)
Last edited by Gillsing; Oct 19, 2018 @ 9:24am
Teddio Oct 19, 2018 @ 9:37am 
I noticed coordination is treated almost like a dump stat. I figured it was important because it affect ranged hit and more importantly ++ for action points. Those are necessary, so i don't try to skip them.
Gillsing Oct 19, 2018 @ 9:56am 
Coordination is a nice luxury, but if 30-CI is really how often a character gets their all Action Points, calculations say that Combat Initiative is so much more important to max, that Coordination is only for people who for some reason want to keep Speed so low that maxing Combat Initiative isn't an option. Or for people who for some reason want to wield the unique blunt weapon called "The Truth", which requires Coordination 5.

CI Sniper: C:4+4 L:1 A:9+1 S:2 S:10 I:1 C:1 8 AP CI:19 Perks: Tinker
Level 10: 9 AP CI 20 = 27 AP in 30 combat steps
Level 30: 10 AP CI 20 = 30 AP in 30 combat steps
Level 30 with Pair of Engagement Rings: 9 AP CI 23 = 38.57 AP in 30 combat steps
Level 50 with Choice: 11 AP CI 25 = 66 AP in 30 combat steps

AP Sniper: C8 L1 A2+5 S4 S8 I4 C1 11 AP CI11
Level 10: 12 AP CI 12 = 20 AP in 30 combat steps
Level 30: 12 AP CI 14 = 22.5 AP in 30 combat steps
Level 30 with Pair of Engagement Rings: 11 AP CI 17 = 25.38 AP in 30 combat steps
Level 50 with Choice: 12 AP CI 21 = 40 AP in 30 combat steps
Last edited by Gillsing; Oct 19, 2018 @ 9:56am
SnapSlav Oct 19, 2018 @ 8:32pm 
Originally posted by daquan.mart:
My charisma lead has the number quirk that gives her 5,2,5,3,3,9,8 after it works. She got a total or 11 CI with 8 AP, which is solid but could be better. Right now I got an extra attribute point but I don't know where to put it. Don't know the next AP break point, and I am not sure how much benefit I can get out of one more CI. Might go with strength.
Speed. Without question, put it into Speed! That will put your SSI to 3-4-9 when Disparnum is benefitting the leader, which in total is divisible by 4. So you get +1 AP and +1 CI for a single attribute point, as well as all the other benefits from increasing SPD! On the flip side, you get NOTHING valuable from increasing STR (other than hp and carry weight) or INT, because SP/lvl and hp/lvl don't count your modified STR or INT levels, they only count your base values. In other words, putting that point into INT or STR means having base INT of 9 or base STR of 3, neither of which confer any major benefits to you. You'll get +1 AP no matter which of the 3 SSI attributes you put it into, but SPD is the clear winner.

Good rule of thumb is "never underestimate the value of CI".
(Another good rule I use is "1 CI is worth at least 2AP".)

Originally posted by daquan.mart:
Running around with like 1 CS sounds fun only after I know all the proper shrine and skill books (can't find any) locations so I can get it happening fast and painlessly.
Don't look at Skill Books as a way to make ANYTHING "fast". They will always give you 1 level of whatever Skill. If your Brawling is level 1 and you read the Brawling book, you now have Brawling level 2; congratulations, you just got a whopping 2 free SP. On the other hand, if your Brawling is 9 and you waited until now to use the book, you've got now-maxed Brawling, and you got 8 free SP (much, MUCH better)!

This is, of course, hardcore min-maxing, and there's an argument to be made for NOT waiting until the very, very end to use a Skill Book, because the earlier benefits will make your party more useful. But I typically avoid reading ANY Skill Books before the associated Skills are level 6. Most can benefit from some kind of Trinket, so I won't need to raise most Skills to level 10, and between 7-9 each level costs 6 SP, so you're getting more bang for your buck to use a Book after 6 than if you read it earlier, particularly before level 4.

Originally posted by daquan.mart:
Now, move is to important and I don't know the fastest way to hit the key AC levels.
Once you clear either Ag Center or Highpool and you attach one of your Repeaters, you will gain access to Ranger Citadel, which has a quartermaster that will make you very, very rich, very, very quickly, AND he sells the best armor in the region. So you'll upgrade to the best armor for your area/level basically as soon as you complete your first mission. There is ONE piece of armor you can get from requisition forms which is even better than the quartermaster's stock, but you'll get better than that in very short time after you find the item that allows you to acquire it, so I'd recommend just sticking with the normally-bought armor.

After you move locations and the game gets tougher, you can buy the next tier of armors almost immediately. Then once you return to your base after ONE tiny side-quest, you'll be able to buy the 2nd-best armor in the entire game, and roll with that until you find the loot locations with THE best.

Enemies will have Penetration of between 2-5 in the first half of the game, and 6-10 on the second half.

Originally posted by daquan.mart:
Also CLASSIC builds for future reference would be nice.
See my latest screenshots for some sample teams I mocked up, just for the fun of it! =)
Sample Team 1
Sample Team 2

Originally posted by daquan.mart:
My last heavy stat based game was new vegas, and that game was so easy to build your toon because of the skilled but not experienced bug which netted an additional +5, and easy implants to hit the stat break points for certain perks. In this game, classic stats can't be adjusted so easily, and they're absolutely essential for proper functioning. CI is hands down the most important stat but I am not sure how high it can go (20?) And what are key break points for key enemies (no derived stats which makes me sad).
I like you! I LOVE Fallout: New Vegas, although I agree it is a pitifully easy game. Wonderful writing and characters and setting, though. They took a garbage game engine and made magic with it!

As for CLASSIC attributes, they're sadly quite easy to manipulate. The meta exists because players have figured out "the" best way to design a character. It's basically impossible to design a better character than the meta. I actively avoid it because I enjoy my variety... and also it can make the game a bit too easy. Having frequent turns and always being able to attack at least once per turn makes for a very capable team. Use recruits as your gauge for how effective your rangers are. If your recruits are absolutely killing it and leaving your rangers behind eating their dust, you have made some VERY poorly designed rangers! XD

Originally posted by Gillsing:
Strength+Speed+Intelligence divided by 4, rounded down (I guess we call this "SSI").
Well I do, and a couple other guides do. It's just easier shorthand to say "SSI" than "Strength, Speed, and Intelligence" or "STR+SPD+INT". But they all work. My way just saves typing. =P

Originally posted by Gillsing:
But with Disparnumerophobia adding +1 to each attribute, Intelligence 10 would miss out on that bonus, and then the SSI would not be evenly divisible by 4, which would mean 1 AP lower. And we can't have that, can we?
My preferred Disparnum build looks more like this:
CLASSIC 5-1-4-4-9-4-1 w/ Disparnumerophobia. This gets 11 AP and 15 CI naturally on even levels. Put all the Attribute points into AWR every 10 levels, and you will max out CI, and get 12 AP with the Tinkerer Perk. This means your ranger is unnaturally robust, fast, reactive, and deadly. Compare this to the meta build which won't achieve 12 AP with Tinkerer, without certain other Perks (or Quirks) and will have far fewer hp as well.

Of course, trying to get some leadership CHA means sacrificing some points SOMEWHERE.

Lately I've been following the logic of NOT placing leadership on my skill monkeys. Skill monkeys will level fast and be incredibly skilled with their high-Intelligence combined with that leveling rate, but it makes them terrible combatants. If you instead make your leader SLIGHTLY gimped by redirecting some points into CHA, and you made one other combatant SLIGHTLY gimped by redirecting some points into INT, you get 2 decent fighters, a great leader, a great skilled fighter, rather than 1 bad fighter that learns a lot of skills. I also find that (once you know what Skills to NOT take) skill monkey types are actually unnecessary to begin with! But they are fun... for your first time through! =)

Originally posted by Gillsing:
I wouldn't recommend it against enemies who have special damage effects though, such as poison or bleeding. Because the armor doesn't stop any of that.
Also explosives. They have a natural -10AC, so any lobbers should be taken out, pronto. Also I believe the death blast from Pod Persons is considered explosive damage? I've noticed that all my characters took the same damage from dying Pod Persons, regardless of their AC...

Basically, this strategy is NOT ideal for most of Ag Center. BUT you'll move on past that relatively quickly!

Originally posted by Gillsing:
After Arziona there will be trinkets that increase CI, which will have a huge effect on someone with high CI
Actually, DURING Arizona! You can get them as early as Darwin and Gorkinovic's Distillery! Rare safe loot, though.

Originally posted by Gillsing:
Keeping NPC recruits from going rogue is not connected to the aura, so that is not a concern.
Uh, not true? At least I seem to RECALL recruits going rogue when they were outside my Leadership radius. I'll leave room for doubt, but I'm pretty sure it only affects recruits who are under the influence of the Skill by being within its radius.

Originally posted by daquan.mart:
I noticed coordination is treated almost like a dump stat. I figured it was important because it affect ranged hit and more importantly ++ for action points. Those are necessary, so i don't try to skip them.
It's regarded more like a "leftover" stat, since it's good, but others are a higher priority. 4 points split half between COR and AWR are better spent all going into SPD. CI is more valuable than AP, so AWR is the next-most-important stat, leaving COR as a runner up. Another reason why COR is undervalued is Leadership and mods, since those cover CtH FAR better than COR ever could.

---

I'd also like to take the time to offer a counter-point to Gillsing's advice towards leveling COR. Basically enemies get better and better CI as you progress, so increading your CI by putting points into AWR means you keep pace with them. If you had great CI to begin with, you'll stay ahead of them. If you had okay CI, then you won't fall (too far) behind. Meanwhile there's very little to be gained from getting nothing at 40 and finally getting +1 AP at 50 if you dedicated both levels to raising COR.

Likewise to the suggestion for raising CHA instead of AWR. Starting with more CHA means more levels, which means more points sooner rather than later. If you instead raise CHA later, you might not make it to 50 before you beat the game (without considerable grinding). But if you start off with roughly 6-CHA, getting all 5 extra Attribute points should be possible (I definitely had exp to spare on a ranger with 8-CHA). So more CHA earlier on means the ranger gets more CI sooner by adding points into AWR, while the reverse is not so.

This may be a moot point if you DO wish to dedicate yourself to some hardcore grinding just to knock out some levels, but I do not recommend it.
Last edited by SnapSlav; Oct 19, 2018 @ 8:43pm
Gillsing Oct 19, 2018 @ 9:03pm 
Okay, now I've run a test combat between four Rangers with CI 25, 20, 15 and 10, and Angela Deth at CI 14. Turns out that the whole thing about 30-CI was inaccurate, and CI 25 does not get to move twice as often as CI 20 (every 30-25=5 time units compared to every 30-20=10 time units). Instead it looks like CI 25 is simply 25% better than CI 20, as one would expect (25 is 25% larger than 20 after all). So I have indeed been wrong about Coordination, and depending on the AP:CI ratio there are cases where one gets more Action Points over time if one moves a couple of attribute points from Speed to Coordination. According to an old post[forums.inxile-entertainment.com] over at the inXile forum the optimal ratio is 1 AP per 2 CI, but that post also contains some strange stuff about '33 segments', which surely does not apply to every fight.

Combat Initiative Test
First 'round' 12 turns were taken:
CI 25 went 1st, 5th, 8th, 12th = 4 times
CI 20 went 3rd, 7th, 11th = 3 times
CI 15 went 4th, 9th = 2 times
CI 14 went 2nd, 10th = 2 times (the enemy, was attacked by everyone in a free round)
CI 10 went 6th = 1 time

Every 'round' thereafter, 16 turns were taken in the same order:
CI 25 went 1st, 5th, 9th, 12th, 16th = 5 times
CI 20 went 4th, 7th, 11th, 15th = 4 times
CI 15 went 2nd, 8th, 13th = 3 times
CI 14 went 6th, 14th = 2 times
CI 10 went 3rd, 10th = 2 times

It looks like CI 14 is getting cheated in the long run (after the first round), only getting as many turns as CI 10. Not sure why, and it makes it difficult to figure out any formula for how Combat Initiative works. Maybe I'd have to run a test with Combat Initiatives with only one point of difference, to see if there are break points or something. Number of turns in a round could (should!) depend on how many are involved in a fight, so that might change things.

Between every turn, regardless of who takes it, 2 seconds pass for durations of status effects. I kept count of every turn by the Tipsy effect from a snake squeeezin.
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Date Posted: Oct 17, 2018 @ 11:19am
Posts: 49