Wasteland 2: Director's Cut

Wasteland 2: Director's Cut

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Wasteland 2 Director's Cut Build Propositions
I've got some ideas for builds but I don't know a lot about the game except for a playthrough on seasoned, so let me know if you've tried any or even if you haven't please give some feedback. I understand there is a great divide on the quality of different weapons (except for ARs which are universally accepted as god-tier and I haven't seen a group without a sniper), I've seen pros and cons for pretty much all the different weapon classes so I'm trying to make different possible builds for all the weapon classes. If you dislike a weapon class, be sure to explain why.

I'm including points every ten levels up to 40 (though I try to optimize the build for level 30 and below so you are fully ready for those tier 6 weapons), and is signified by any attribution additions in brackets (+1,+3, etc). This is very much Director's Cut so builds will be based around perks (Tinkerer, anyone?) and quirks. Because of this, some of these build might suffer in the immediate short-term, but my goal is they should be able to scrape by until maybe 35% through the game and the rest should be a breeze.

A lot of them have 10 INT because if every one of my four main rangers gets 4 non-combat skills I have them all except two (barter is useless, why have leadership when you have all the skills you need without NPCs?), and that also means you will see a lot of Tinkerer, because all of these builds can earn 4 skill points in one level. Another thing you might notice is they all have 1 Charisma and 1 Luck. I don't believe in the power of Luck (though feel free to try and change my mind) and for any of these builds you can pretty much pull points out of anything not Charisma and Intelligence and sink them all into Charisma if you want a Leadership buff, or perhaps if you want a certain NPC with a high Charisma requirement you might have to sacrifice two people or three people to the never-to-be-useful-in-combat gods, but NPC followers might be able to fill in those holes in your offense (even if they aren't very well combat-optimized and they have low Intelligence, they can still hold their own if you give them the right equipment and max their weapon skills).

I'm not well versed with Energy Weapons so I will not be considering them in any of my builds, feel free to make modifications to any of them for this category. I have not explored AP carrying very well but from what I've read, 1-2 AP translates to 1 AP on next turn, higher than that gets you 2 AP on next turn. Any skills are up to you, I simply suggest Demolitions on a strength>4 character so they can carry lots of explosives.

Introduction PS: I heard somewhere that you want a CI that is divisible by three. Is this true and if so, why?

(?) = Variation Of Build, Optional, Alteration

Here we go.

CLASSIC 1

2 (+2), 1, 1, 3 (+1), 10, 10, 1 BRITTLE BONES, TINKERER

This build hits a AP sweet spot of 14 (two AR bursts, also can work with Bladed Weapons unless you are going for the Proton Axe, top-tier shotty burst + one shot?) by level 30 and nets you 11 CI, which is half decent considering such a high AP. Where this build falls a little short is Brittle Bones can kill your speed, making possible Bladed Weapons builds slow. Thankfully, this build is flexible in that you don't need to take Brittle Bones. Without it, you get the full 10 speed bonus, and still have 12 AP to play around with, ideal for sniper (two .50 shots iirc) builds, Bladed Builds (speed ftw), Shotty builds (speed for maneuvering, AP for top tier weapon's two shots), blunt, handguns, and high speed can counteract Heavy Weapons speed penalties.

An issue for this though is you have 4 Strength, but you can't really use some of the top tier heavy armor because you need Tinkerer to smooth that AP, which can harm any tank characters you might want to have. To fix that problem, I suggest you take those two level 10 points out of Coordination and place them in Strength, plus level 40 point in Strength would let you use absolute top tier heavy armor, but suffer a bit on AP (10 instead of 12), or put those extra two points into Awareness to up CI to 13 (plus trinkets?) and ditch Tinkerer, giving you a tank build (with that heavy armor you can now wear without Tinkerer) more built for taking the front line and making yourself a target instead of rushing in there and fighting a bunch.

CLASSIC 2

2 (+2), 1, 1, 5 (+1), 8, 10, 1 TINKERER, BRITTLE BONES (?)

While only a slight variation of CLASSIC 1, I seperated them because this build is very specifically designed with the Proton Axe in mind. By level 30 you are sitting on 10 CI (a bit low but eh) and 12 AP. You start off with that 5 Strength and can put that extra level 10 point in late game (because the Proton Axe is a late game weapon) unless you really want that extra AP early on. Some variations of this build could include losing Tinkerer and the level 10 points in Coordination and taking Brittle Bones instead. Still gets you 12 AP, but no reliance on Tinkerer and opens up those two extra Attribute points, maybe to sink into Awareness to help support that low CI.

CLASSIC 3

2 (+2), 1, 8, 2, 4, 10, 1 TINKERER, PSYCHOPATH (?), BRITTLE BONES (?)

10 AP by level 20 and 15 CI, pretty good for an SMG build because of that 10 AP sweet spot and SMG builds never really need heavy armor because you usually have a tank out on the front lines anyway, unless your SMG man IS your tank (in which God help your soul). Psychopath maybe because I hear it works really well with automatic weapons and heavy weapons are so finicky on their optimal range that I would stick to SMGs. Speed is a little lacking for a SMG build because they need a lot of finesse but without heavy armor or Brittle Bones slowing you down, you should be able to git 'er done. Speaking of Brittle Bones, slap that quirk on here and you have a solid sniper build. High CI allows you to start off first and get a extra turn in every once in a while and the 12 AP sweet spot lets you pick off two before they even get to go. Maybe could also work for shotties? I know they take even more finesse then SMGs though, so might be better for a blunt tank build.

CLASSIC 4

3 (+1), 1, 3, 2, 8, 10, 1 TINKERER (?)

Finally, a build that doesn't NEED Tinkerer! By level 10 you get 10 AP and you start off with 12 CI, so this build is flexible in its combat stats because you still have a good 2 or 3 level 10 points to put in whatever you want. If 10 AP is the sweetspot for your weapon, congrats, you can probably sink two or three of those level 10 points in Awareness and end up with 14 or 15 CI. If your AP goal is more like 12 though, that is still reachable by dumping two more level 10 points in Coordination and getting Tinkerer, netting you 12 AP 12 CI by level 30, which I would consider to be a good balance. Unlike CLASSIC 3, you get that 12 AP without Brittle Bones meaning you still have good speed for a shotgun build or maybe a light armor blunt character, or high speed helps counteract any heavy weapon penalties you might get.

CLASSIC 5

1 (+3), 1, 1, 6, 8, 10, 1 TINKERER, THICK SKINNED (?)

This build suffers in CI (10 is pretty bad imho) but makes up for it by giving decent combat speed and 12 AP by level 30. Some adjustments for this build could be made if you feel like throwing CI and speed to the wind, such as lowing Speed down to 6 or 4 and maxing out Strength for extra health and that brawling crit damage. Does mean your CI would be 8 though, which is pitiful. Might make this build ideal for tanking though because a tank doesn't need high initiative, just needs to get out there and do nothing. The main thing counteracting this tank build is being confined to Light Armor for that extra AP. I'm sure if you really wanted to go full tank though you take Thick Skinned quirk and just don't do the Tinkerer, wear heavy armor anyway, and then slap an Engagement ring on for 11 CI to get in early, leaving this build at 10 AP, 11 CI and mediocre speed, but incredible defense and health, at around halfway through the game (wherever you get engagement rings).

CLASSIC 6

2, 1, 4, 8, 2 (+4), 10, 1 BRITTLE BONES (?), THICK SKINNED (?)

Really, really slow, but Brittle Bones bumps this build up to 11 AP and those four level 10 points in Speed brings your AP and your CI to 12 (not to mention the speed you'll be gaining, which is the primary weakness on this build). I built this build with melee in mind (12 AP is a sweet spot for upgraded bladed weapons, blunt weapons and brawling). Give them Brittle Bones, slap some heavy armor on them, they will hardly be able to move but their health/defense will be fantastic and they will have enough CI to get in combat before the enemy makes it all the way to your party and enough AP to take out any enemies that swarm to them. A possible alternative if you are really going for the tank build is Thick Skinned. Although this lowers your AP to 10, it doesn't kill your movement speed as much (not like you have that much to begin with anyway though) and it gives you +2 armor. The 10 AP can still be a sweet spot for non-proton axe bladed build, but your Strength is so high that you might as well (for a non-proton axe bladed build most combinations that bring you high speed and even AP work).

CLASSIC 7

5 (+3), 1, 1, 2, 8, 10, 1 BRITTLE BONES (?), TINKERER (?)

Adding all three level 10 points to Coordination nets you 12 AP by level 30 and a base 10 CI, without sacrificing your combat speed or limiting you to light armor, which makes this build killer for blunt, non-proton bladed, handguns, heavy weapons, snipers, shotties, most weapons, really, even energy weapons (Gamma Ray Blaster, anybody?). If you want to really AP ♥♥♥♥♥, you can grab both Brittle Bones and Tinkerer and have 15 AP, which is ludicrously high, and you still keep 10 CI (which isn't an amazing CI but considering your AP is pretty fudging decent). This can also work spectacularly for AR users, 15 AP gives you three normal shots or two bursts plus one extra AP (which you can efficently lose by not taking Tinkerer). Given the mid to late game range of ARs, Brittle Bones isn't really hurting you that much. Another consideration: end-game SMG, burst fire mode takes 8 AP. Well, if you push it to the very limit and put the last two level 10 points into Coordination, you get 16 AP, aka two SMG bursts without moving.

CLASSIC 8

2, 1, 2 (+3), 2, 10, 10, 1 TINKERER (?), PSYCHOPATH (?), BRITTLE BONES (?)

This build without Tinkerer or Brittle Bones nets you 9 AP and 15 CI by level 30. 9 AP is a good sweet spot at 3 attacks 3 AP each so it works well with handguns, non-proton axe bladed and blunt. This build with Tinkerer and Brittle Bones can shine for characters that don't need to move much, like snipers and ARs, and even then the high Speed on this build allows for possibly shotty and blunt users to get where they need to be. Without Brittle Bones this build is left with 10 AP which is good for SMGs, and is also a sweet spot for carrying AP to the next round, so keep that in mind.

CLASSIC 9

7 (+1), 1, 3 (+2), 2, 4, 10, 1 TINKERER

A nice balance between CLASSIC 3 and CLASSIC 7 by stabilizing both your AP and CI. You can still find a nice balance without Brittle Bones at 12 AP 12 CI by level 30, which is great for pretty much every weapon class except Brawling, Proton Axe builds (both require high strength), and SMGs (which find good sweet spots at 8, 10, 13, 16). If you want that double AR burst, slap Brittle Bones on there. If you want a SMG build, lose Tinkerer, bring base Coordination down by 2 and slap those two points on Awareness to get 15 CI by level 40.

CLASSIC 10

2, 1, 4 (+3), 4, 6, 10, 1 TINKERER (?), BRITTLE BONES (?)

Only 9 AP but as high as 15 CI by level 30. Was going for a brawling build but it suffers from low strength, not allowing those crazy crits, but is still viable for handguns, or you can lose three base Awareness and slap that on Strength for a Proton Axe build, giving 9 AP and 12 CI by level 30, along with the power to wear top-tier heavy armor. Tinkerer and Brittle Bones bring the AP up to 12, speed suffers and your limited to light armor but both those things are just fine for snipers and ARs, and might work for shotties?

CLASSIC 11

5 (+1), 1, 3 (+3), 2, 4, 10, 1 ASCEPTIC (?), BRITTLE BONES (?)

A balance between CLASSIC 3 and CLASSIC 9, bringing you 10 AP and 15 CI by level 40, which might seem extreme until you attach Brittle Bones to this already slow build and you are raking in 12 AP and 15 CI, which are pretty stellar stats, not considering the terrible speed. An interesting alternative for say an SMG build would be Asceptic to skip one of those level 10 points, bringing you an optimum SMG build by level 30 sitting on 10 AP and 15 CI. I know some people love their trinkets though, so those people might just need to suck it up and wait the extra 10 levels (or sacrifice CI?).

CLASSIC 12

3 (+1), 1, 5, 6, 2 (+2), 10, 1 BRITTLE BONES

A build built for the proton axe. AP and CI are both 12 by level 30, not terrible and does enable an incredible blade weapon for use, but very slow. The two points in Speed is there less for more speed (because of Brittle Bones halving it), but it does increase your CI up to 12. If you value heavy armor and/or health more than 1 point of CI then you will want to put those two level 10 points in Strength instead. The thing I like about this build though is that it can efficently tank and deal damage and get decent turn rates, the only real downside is speed. Though, you can still use this build with snipers and ARs because speed isn't really affecting them as much, and maybe if you really wanted to you could be a heavy weapons build here, but don't expect them to move very much (aka literally not at all).

CLASSIC 13

1, 1, 9 (+1), 2, 4 (+2), 10, 1 TINKERER (?), BRITTLE BONES (?)

This build was designed very specifically for AR users. Your base AP is 7 (one AR burst) but you start with 16 CI and have 18 CI by level 30. Because ARs are such long range weapons anyway (end game they are very effective mid-long range weapons with mods) that they honestly don't even need 2.4 (after the two level 10 points put in Speed) combat speed, so if you go with Brittle Bones and either take the fourth level 10 point and put that in Coordination or get the Tinkerer perk for 10 AP. The very end-game assault rifle takes 6 AP to shoot, so you can shoot once, save AP for next turn, shoot twice. This build might also work with a sniper (without Brittle Bones can shoot once without Deadeye, with Brittle Bones can shoot twice every other turn from carrying AP), but it would never be effective with an SMG build because they need to be up in the action, and able to, you know, move.

Let me know if any of these are or are not viable, I hope to create a sort of cheat sheet for reference when going for a particular build. When I was researching this (basically hours in the creation screen) I began to realize that 10 Intelligence was really holding some of these builds back from their full potential, but I consider it a worthwhile investment to not have to deal with NPC's bullcrap and to be able to do pretty much anything I want in the game. If you have some particularly effective builds (don't need to be 1 Luck, 1 Charisma, or 10 Intelligence, I'll take whatever I can get) feel free to share them.
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Showing 1-7 of 7 comments
Amanoob105 Jan 7, 2018 @ 2:26am 
Ok, wow, that's a lot to unpack.
So, in no real order.

It's not the "power of luck", it's the "fun of luck". I like a little random in my games as well as a lot of narrative in my people. So I will always have one person with a high luck just for those reasons. Every so often they will get some extra AP in combat and/or extra CON when leveling up.
I understand that it's not for everyone.

Copyed this from elsewhere.
INT 10 = 5 SP per level; 200 SP by level 40. You can roughly max out 4 and a half skills.
INT 8 or 9 = 4 SP per level; 160 SP by level 40. You can roughly max out 3 and a half skills.
IINT 4, 5, 6, or 7 = 3 SP per level; 120 SP by level 40. You can max out 2 and a half skills.
NT 1, 2, or 3 = 2 SP per level; 80 SP by level 40. You can max out almost 2 skills.
(Please note this this wasn't made with the +1 from skill books in mind it seems.)

This is one of the main things recruits are used for (the other being extra damage in combat), picking up the slack of the other skills you can't cram on the main four. And with their help, now don't have to.

You don't need to put points into Chra to do this ether as that only effects how far the aim bonus can reach (and you've already made it clear you don't mind being without the, at most, extra +20% to hit), not how likely they are to do their own thing.
One guy gives up one skill for leadership and you get (at least) six more to play with.

Energy guns, I'm a fan. There not what they used to be in the vanilla WL2 but they still have their use against robots (back then it was armor = damage, so faces were melted and often). No aim penaltys, ok(ish) damage against most things, very high damage against robots. The main reason to take one is so you can get the Gamma Ray Blaster and scrap/melt any robots you come across in very short order.

Every gun in this game works fine if used right so depending on personal playstile some people will always like some over others.
I know of one person that seems to have finished the game with nothing but pistol using gunslingers, so none are useless. But yes, ARs are basicaly at the top.

While it can help with their use you don't need the Demolitions skill to use explosives, it's mainly used for dissarming them.

And at least for not I'm going to stop there, this is long enough already.
SnapSlav Jan 7, 2018 @ 1:11pm 
Okay, so..... where to begin?

I suppose I should just get this out of the way straight out of the gate: I'm probably gonna sh** all over your builds. As a disclaimer (if you haven't read any of my other comments and aren't familiar with my take on builds) I actually LIKE build variety and I appreciate the craft of making characters with different allocations of stats- but that doesn't mean I ignore the fact that there is a character design meta. So like it or not, stale/boring or otherwise, there is "what works" and "what is frowned upon". With that out of the way, let's move forward with my thoughts!

#1: Formatting:
When posting numerous builds back-to-back, it really helps to distill any individual build by including the relevant derived stats- usually AP and CI -so a reader doesn't have to sift through the numbers and tally up the points to understand the point of the build. Makes understanding the build much easier, leaving you more room to explain the build in more detail. You could include any other derived stats that you consider relevant to that particular build, for example a build you design as a tank, you could include "10hp/lvl" to point out that this guy will be getting 25% more hp on level-up than the other guy. Just a suggestion.

#2 10-INT Builds:
Originally posted by TheLaughingDead:
A lot of them have 10 INT
10-INT teams sound like a great idea on paper... until you try them out yourself. The math (and personal experience) simply demonstrates that you're wasting potential on teams with more than just one 10-INT character. It's always useful to design teams based around hitting level 32, but don't expect to not hit level 40, as that's probably going to happen without even trying (unless you avoid quests like the plague). This means you WILL accumulate SP over the course of the game, and you'll find out that a tea of 4-INT combatants with one or two 10-INT skill monkeys will be more than enough to suit your needs for the entirety of the game.

Because of how useful they are, don't neglect to incorporate trinkets into your designs, because they're effectively anywhere from 8 to 20 to even 42 SP savers! That's a LOT of utility in a tiny little item. So the reality is that you don't need 792 SP (18 * 44) to get 18 useful utiltiy skills to level 10, but rather you only need 432 SP to get 18 skills between level 5-9 by mid-way through the game. And every character starts out with 12 SP, can earn 16 SP through skill statues strewn throughout the game, and earn whatever else through their SP/lvl bonus. This means every 4-INT character contributes 113 SP to the overall team SP pool by level 32 in AZ. By level 40 this is 145 SP per 4-INT character. This means with 7 characters all 4-INT, you'll have over 700 SP to pool between them by level 40, as well as each of them mastering a single combat skill.

Long story short, math says don't overdo it with too many 10-INT characters. Maybe have one or two of them (maximum) to help out your team carry the heavy burden of mundane tasks in the early levels. But by the late-game, you'll be awash with SP with nothing to spend it on.

#3 Combat Initiative:
Originally posted by TheLaughingDead:
I heard somewhere that you want a CI that is divisible by three. Is this true and if so, why?
Supposedly, combat order works by subtracting CI from 30, and whatever that number is, and however many times that number "repeats" in 30, is how often that character will take their turn in combat. Because 30 is divisible by 5 6 times, since the higest possible CI to attain is 25, this means a CI 25 character would go 6 times in a single combat sequence when a CI 15 character will only go twice in that same sequence. So the recommendation of "CI divisible by 3" is a simplification, but then again that's all assuming that this understanding of CI calculations is even accurate, about which I'm skeptical.

Originally posted by TheLaughingDead:
This build hits a AP sweet spot of 14 [...] and nets you 11 CI, which is half decent considering such a high AP.
Piggybacking off of the previous explanation, 11 CI is by no means "half decent". The lowest CI can possibly get is 6, so CIs around 10 are just plain BAD. Speaking from experience of playing with a team with between 7-11 CI, and another team with 13-14 CI, and another team with 16+ CI, it pretty much goes like this:
6-10 CI = TERRIBLE
11-13 CI = Bad
14-16 CI = Average
17-19 CI = Good
20+ CI = EXCELLENT
You'll find most enemies have over the course of the game, on average, will have about as many moves as your team will, if your team has CIs between 14-16, and if you have below 13 CI, you'll find that your team gets outmaneuvered by your enemies quite frequently.

I've also heard other arguments about new teams with varying CI and noticing that the higher the CI, the higher the damage output and kills of that character... though this only applies if they have the same weapon type and same weapon skill level, because weapon types (even specific weapons within a weapon category) affect damage output significantly. But their point of "more CI = more opportunity to deal damage" is quite sound.

#4 A Comment on Speed Penalties:
Originally posted by TheLaughingDead:
high speed can counteract Heavy Weapons speed penalties
A quick note, you can COMPLETELY circumvent CS penalties from Heavy Weapons by simply... swapping your weapon to something else. Just swap weapons to a non-HW, move as you need, swap back to HW, voila, no CS lost at all!

In general, however, compensating for CS penalties never really overcomes those penalties (except in the one example above in which you can remove it completely). If you argue that a "hidden benefit" to Brittle Bones is that it not only halves your CS but also halves your CS penalties, this does not overcome the HALF COMBAT SPEED you have to work with. This is pretty major in the later parts of the game, where multiple turns will be spent just closing the gap between you and your enemies. More CI will help, more AP could help a little, but ultimately you just need more running speed to be able to cover enough distance as quickly as possible. ANYTHING that costs you a CS pentalty will be therefore working against you, considerably.

This is why Luchadore Belts are not more valuable, considering they could (in theory) allow you to transition into heavier weapons in the late game without needing to invest too much into STR, but the reality is that these trinkets also lower your evasion, combat speed, and combst initiative, all of which you really want, and none of the benefits in particular really help you by comparison. You don't get much boost to your HP, but you DO miss out on all the cumulative hp/lvl over time benefits. You may be able to weild a slightly heavier weapon, but use it less often in combat.

#5 Thoughts on Brittle Bones:
Originally posted by TheLaughingDead:
BRITTLE BONES
BRITTLE BONES (?)
BRITTLE BONES (?)
BRITTLE BONES (?)
Seeing a LOT of Brittle Bones in all these builds... Brittle Bones is one of those quirks that sounds good on paper, but in practice it's not as useful as it is deleterious. That halved CS reeeeeeeally hurts, and in theory it really only benefits snipers because of their high-AP weapons and their relatively minimal need to move around. But they do need to move, since higher ground vantage points are so rare in the game, and enemies LOVE to take cover, so your snipers need to be able to book it to reposition themselves quite often. This is why, rather ironically, one of the best things for snipers is in fact a Bladed Weapon perk: Adrenaline Rush.

Since your snipers are usually safely tucked away behind their own cover and significant distance to protect themselves from being targeted by enemies, you can actually attack your own snipers (outside of combat, obviously) until they're below 25% hp, and from that point on they'll benefit from +2 AP in combat! Combined with Twitchy quirk and Inverted Four Leaf Clover trinket you'll have a sniper with abundant AP to spent, as well as be FAST AS HELL and therefore able to cover some ridiculous ground so that enemies can never get into positioning to escape you!

Just take more pause in deciding to use Brittle Bones, because it's not as useful as it might appear to be. You'll gain just as much benefit from a Disparnumeraphobia build without ANY of the same drawbacks. You'll be incredibly fast, have an abundance of AP, and you'll only need to plan out your calls to HQ so that you skip every odd level.

cont'd...
SnapSlav Jan 7, 2018 @ 1:13pm 
[Part 2]

#6 A Brief Comment on AP "Sweet Spots":
Couldn't help but notice that your builds (or at least your rationalization for those builds) stress a heavy emphasis on AP "sweet spots". The idea of AP sweet spots is alright on its own, but as the above explained effects of CI, AP, and CS demonstrate, there's only so much to be gained from increasing your AP past a certain point. In theory if a weapon costs 7 AP then 14 AP means you "waste" no AP, and likewise with any other weapon AP costs multiples, but in practice the reality is you almost NEVER "waste" your AP. A large part of your turns will be spent determining whether to reposition your characters or not, and if you forego entire turns before moving because you don't want to "waste a shot", you're losing positional advantage.

Generally speaking, aiming for 8-10 AP works well for most (if not all) character builds, because you have enough to fire any kind of weapon, and enough left over to move. You might find yourself enjoying a period of getting 3 AR shots off per turn and 2 Deadeye SR shots off per turn with a couple 12 AP characters, but the reality of what you lost to achieve these AP numbers will sink in and you'll realize that you didn't place enough emphasis on CI or CS.

It's very easy to strive for a balance of 9 AP, 14 CI, and 2.5+ CS, and still have plenty of room left to experiment and differentiate any given build.

#7 Attributes (Stats):
I'm noticing a trend in your builds, placing 10/20/etc points in STR or COR. Generally speaking, there are 2 stats in which you NEVER want to wait till every 10 levels to increase: STR and INT. This is because these stats primarily convey the bulk of their benefits over time, in the form of hp/lvl and SP/lvl, and you mitigate these gains by waiting till later levels to increase them. This isn't so bad for stats like COR or SPD, however, so you can increase your AP over the course of the game, and you don't really lose out on anything by postponing doing so. But this isn't ideal, either.

I'd recommend allocating your bonus stat points go into SPD or AWR... usually always AWR. Because you gain 1 CI for every point of AWR but only for every 2 points of SPD, you will increase your CI s bit over the course of the game, and since enemies will have better and better stats as the game progresses, you will match them (and exceed them) if you invest in increasing your CI rather than your AP. If you only increase your AP as you level, you'll notice heavy diminishing returns as enemis continue outmanuevering you more and more, and your upgraded AP fails to match up to their cumulative upgrades. But since CI is such a brokenly-good derived stat, increasing that as you progress seems to have the best payoff.

On that note...

#8 Efficient Stat Spending:
Originally posted by TheLaughingDead:
2 (+2), 1, 8, 2, 4, 10, 1
[...]
High CI allows you
Part of the meta is "efficiently" spending points, such as gaining more from the same number of points being spent, as well as "wasting" fewer points. An example of "wasted" points is every sum total of STR, SPD, and INT (SSI) that isn't divisible by 4, since that means you're not getting any AP out of that number. Your CLASSIC 8, for instance, has 2 extra points in SSI, but really low AWR, so you could lower SPD by 2 and put that into AWR, gaining 1 CI and 1 Evasion, losing 0.2 CS, and keeping the same AP, all with the same amount of points!

By contrast, your CLASSIC 3 (the quoted one) has an efficient distribution of SSI, with 16 points total, evenly divisible by 4, so nothing is "wasted". This is usually another element of the meta, 16 points sunk into SSI. This means you could go 4 4 8, 2 10 4, 4 8 4, etc, all while benefiting from missing out on nothing (no odd stats) and maximizing AP per overall stat investment (sum total divisible by 4). In theory this also applies to 12 or even 20 spent between SSI, but the reality is that you get diminishing returns about 16, as well as below 16. As explained above in the example about re-allocating your points in the CLASSIC 8 build, some stats are simply "better" spent elsewhere.

#9 A Comment on Ascetic:
Originally posted by TheLaughingDead:
ASCEPTIC (?)
[...]
I know some people love their trinkets though
First off, there is no "p" in the word "ascetic", dunno how that misspelling kept cropping up again and again.

But more importantly... Ascetic is not that bad of a trade off as it might seem. It's primarily a TREMENDOUS boon to INT 1 combat types. Because (as explained above about overall SP demands) you only need so many SP to spend to master weapons, and there are no trinkets that improve combat skills (excluding the quite-valuable CI and CtH trinkets for combat) so you don't necessarily need trinket access on such a character. The extra point and 5 SP enables them to be much-more capable in the early game, and the overall stat distribution (away from INT) guarantees that they'll be that much deadlier of a combatant in the long run.

Other than that (or the odd exploit) there's not much use for picking Ascetic, because of the previously-mentioned saving of upwards of 10 SP per trinket, which obviously outweighs the 5 SP gained. But in those niche builds, it's quite good!

#10 Final Comment on "The Power of Luck":
Luck is a highly-underrated stat. However the primary criticism for Luck and why most advocate for 1-LCK builds... is not wrong at all. That's that LCK builds are good, but unreliable. True to the nature of "luck", it's all a matter of random chance whether you'll benefit from moderate-to-high LCK. BUT, there is one area where LCK truly shines: beefiness. It sounds counterintuitive, but the fact of the matter is, you get more hp from LCK than from STR. Case in point, by the end of my last game, Ralphy had almost 500 hp while the rest of the team was hardly pushing beyond 300... largely because of his 5-LCK!

The only real drawback to relying on LCK for your hp is the "need" to save/reload if you didn't like your level-up hp, but more importantly is the mediocre importance of HP. You just don't get that much out of more and more hp. It's more useful to have higher AC if you want to become a powerful tank, and more valuable to be deadlier rather than more longevital.

.....

Originally posted by TheLaughingDead:
Let me know if any of these are or are not viable, I hope to create a sort of cheat sheet for reference when going for a particular build.
The sad reality is that most of those builds are non-viable... at least on paper. The fact of the matter is that if you're a good enough player you can make whatever build you want work for you. But the way the game is (im)balanced, CI is still king, and builds with average-or-below CI are still undesireable to most. But, as I expressed in my disclaimer, I still like my variety, AND I've already endeavored to create a team (undesireable on paper) just to prove a point. So don't let me discourage you from using these build cheat sheets as you will!

Originally posted by TheLaughingDead:
When I was researching this (basically hours in the creation screen) I began to realize that 10 Intelligence was really holding some of these builds back from their full potential, but I consider it a worthwhile investment to not have to deal with NPC's bullcrap and to be able to do pretty much anything I want in the game.
As expained in Point #2, you really don't wanna overdo it with multiple 10-INT characters. But, if you want a team that avoids recruits entirely, then you should be able to make do with a couple skill monkey types. But you do want your best combatants to be GOOD combatants, and other than lots of skills and a small contribution to AP, high-INT builds don't aid your rangers that much in combat.

Originally posted by TheLaughingDead:
If you have some particularly effective builds (don't need to be 1 Luck, 1 Charisma, or 10 Intelligence, I'll take whatever I can get) feel free to share them.
I'll post more of my own builds later, but for now I'll post this...

BEEFY Tank - 2:5:4(+1+3-5):7:8:1:1 (ASCETIC) - 8 AP, 14 CI, 2.6 CS, 13-14 hp/lvl
This is a fairly fast tank (slowed down by heaviest of armor, though just to 2.0 by the end-game, and can benefit from speed perks, such as Charge! and Shoulder the Load) that benefits mostly from absolutely absurd hp gain. As I mentioned earlier, I went with this build just to prove a point, and I deliberately endeavored to aim for a 5-LCK build that would more than simply "get by" throughout the game, and do quite well. I had a different stat distribution before, but after a quick re-allocation of points, came out with an even better state arrangement with this build. It's obviously a combat-centric build, so it doesn't do anything fancy. But it can cover decent ground, and just shrugs off bullets like an annoying case of dandruff.

You could reallocate those 4 extra points from LCK into COR, and be an even (more reliably) deadlier tank with 10 AP and few hp.
TheLaughingDead Jan 7, 2018 @ 5:58pm 
Wow! I'm glad you took the time to explain them any issues with my builds and formatting! I hope it didn't take too much time out of your day, I found the feedback here incredible, especially considering how long my post has been up.
I apologize for all the mistakes. First thing, I was aware of INT not giving retroactive skill points, but I never connected it with STR not giving health. That is just a stupid mistake on my part.
The formatting suggestion is good to know, I'll be sure to use it if I ever come up with builds in the future. I find it a lot easier if everyone keeps the same sort of build format, and yours is a lot cleaner and easier to read than mine. Question: besides attributes and AP/CI/CS, do you think point form or pros/cons section for each build would be better, or does a quick paragraph work just as well?
The high-INT tip is good to know, I'll be sure to keep it in mind. Maybe all the builds I posted are very specifically for skillmonkeys then, rather than a full squad.
No matter what formula CI follows, it is still quite important if what you say is true (chances are, it is). I just hope someone gets it downpat, because I know some CI levels are going to be less effective than others, because it is based off of turns, and there are no "half turns".
Given CI's combat effectiveness compared to AP, I wonder if CLASSIC 13 would be one of the more useful (or less useless) builds shown here, though the speed is suffering. I find your take on sniper rifles interesting, I never really considered them a build that is "on the move", so I guess that kind of kills the whole build (if snipers need to move, ARs DEFINITELY need to move too). Unless I drop Brittle Bones and stick with the 7 AP, which seems very low to me but I suppose in your terms isn't that far below average.
I was considering making some Disparnumeraphobia (Disparnumerophobia?) builds, but I tried to find out whether you can level up characters individually and I got absolutely no information on it, so I assumed not. While one could still time their call-ins, I consider it a hassle and also if more than one of my rangers had the quirk it would get messy, to the point that I would rarely be able to level up. In retrospect I find it ironic that I spent all this time min/maxing certain stats but I'm too lazy to deal with the hassle of levelling up less often.
Ascetic being misspelled is probably because every time I read the word I thought in my head "antiseptic". My bad haha!
Thank you for the incredible feedback yet again, I'll keep that in mind if/when I change old/make new builds. Learning about the beefiness of luck really is good to know because now I have a reason to consider using it beyond very specific roleplaying purposes.
One last thing. As an experiment, I was thinking of doing an entire squad all using the same weapon, sort of as a challenge or just for fun. Any recommendations?
SnapSlav Jan 7, 2018 @ 10:12pm 
Originally posted by TheLaughingDead:
Question: besides attributes and AP/CI/CS, do you think point form or pros/cons section for each build would be better, or does a quick paragraph work just as well?
I think the paragraph is just fine. But a few highlights such as AP/CI/CS are good to give a brief view of what the build does. Anything that needs further explanation is was the paragraph will cover. So for example I included the 13-14 hp/lvl beside the other relevant stats to give a concise yet clear indication of what that build was aiming for. If you didn't prioritize tons of hp, you might look at 5 LCK and 7 STR and be a bit confused.

Really how you format is up to you, and just about everyone does their own version of things.

Some people do this:
C:6 L:1 A:4 S:2 S:6 I:8 C:1

Some prefer this:
CLASSIC is 6-1-4-2-6-8-1

Some would rather this:
C 6
L 1
A 4
S 2
S 6
I 8
C 1

The list goes on. There are many other ways other people write out their personal builds. Personally I think things like the 3rd above example may be the "most legible" but also take up the most (verticle) space. I think the second makes the most sense, personally. But like I said, it's up to you how you wanna format your stuff.

Originally posted by TheLaughingDead:
Given CI's combat effectiveness compared to AP, I wonder if CLASSIC 13 would be one of the more useful (or less useless) builds shown here, though the speed is suffering.
The drawback of that build really is the hit the CS takes from Brittle Bones. 1.1 CS is really, really little to work with. I might suggest a small tweak to it to make it happen.

Your starting CLASSIC 13 is 1, 1, 9 (+1), 2, 4 (+2), 10, 1
I'd suggest something like 1(+1), 1, 5(+2), 2, 8, 10, 1

You lose 2 CI, but you gain 1 AP, 2 Evasion, and 0.5 CS (or just 0.2 with Brittle Bones), and you'll gain another AP by adding +1 COR and you'll "regain" those 2 CI back to 16 by adding those +2 AWR. I'm suggesting moving some points into SPD away from AWR because it helps you gain some much-needed CS, but it also didn't make much sense to me to take 16 points between SSI and add 2 to bring it to 18, which yes gives you +1 CI and some Evasion/CS, but just takes you half way to +1 AP. If you simply distribute 1 point to COR, you gain that AP, then spend the other 2 on AWR and get some more CI.

There are also other builds that can take adantage of the Twitchy quirk, so you might try this:
Speedy Psycho: CLASSIC is 8-1-6(+3)-2-6-4-1 (TWITCHY) 10 AP, 14 CI, 2.8 CS
The unusually high COR helps offset the downside of Twitchy by giving you +8% CtH to counteract the -10% CtH, you reach the normal max CS of 2.8 with just 6 SPD.

Or...

Speedy Psycho v2: CLASSIC is 6-1-4(+3)-2-10-4-1 (TWITCHY) 10 AP, 14 CI, 3.4 CS
By diverting 2 points from COR and 2 from AWR and bringing SPD up to 10, you don't lose any AP or CI, and attain a whopping 3.4 CS. The drawback is that you lose a little CtH so Twitchy hurts you a little more, but not by much. As is usually the case with Twitchy builds, they hurt you most early in the game, but benefit you the most for the rest of the game, while Brittle Bones has the opposite effect of helping you for much of the game but really hurting you the most at the end of the game.

These 2 "Speedy Psycho" suggestions are obviously more combat-centered builds, so they won't be for your skill monkey types.

Originally posted by TheLaughingDead:
I find your take on sniper rifles interesting, I never really considered them a build that is "on the move", so I guess that kind of kills the whole build (if snipers need to move, ARs DEFINITELY need to move too).
There are a few late-game battles in particular that just absolutely necessitate mobility, and snipers who can't move very far will paradoxically be unable to reach their targets. Even when you're facing robots (who don't use cover), there will be either arenas WAY larger than even the best sniper rifles in the game, or obstacles obstructing a clear shot, so being able to move around to get a better shot is crucial for these instances.

Even early on, when you're picking off raiders hiding behind barrels, being able to flank them from the side to find a better angle of attack and negate their cover bonus evasion is very useful. Alternatively you can rely on your short-ranged combatants to do the heavy lifting when it comes to flanking. So perhaps you won't need super mobile snipers.

But a meta build of 4-1-6(+3)-2-10-4-1 with Twitchy and making use of Inverted Clovers? Snipers won't suffer the same CtH penalties as AR gunners using burst fire, so they benefit from the upside of Twitchy while mitigating the downside of it.

Originally posted by TheLaughingDead:
I was considering making some Disparnumeraphobia (Disparnumerophobia?)[...]
Yep. Disparnumeraphobia. Dispar - Numera - Phobia = Unlike - Numbers - Fear.
Fear of odd numbers. Thus benefitting from its effects when your levels are even.

Originally posted by TheLaughingDead:
I tried to find out whether you can level up characters individually and I got absolutely no information on it, so I assumed not. While one could still time their call-ins, I consider it a hassle and also if more than one of my rangers had the quirk it would get messy, to the point that I would rarely be able to level up.
No, you cannot level up individual characters if several have enough exp to level. Anyone ready to rank up when you call HQ will rank up when you call HQ. But thanks to the potency of Disparnumeraphobia, you WANT your entire team to have the quirk, that way you're all leveling at the same time. The downisde is that you need to earn exp as evenly between your core rangers as possible (avoid putting Weaponsmithing- except for Tinkerer -on your core rangers, cause that character will zoom ahead in levels), the early game will hurt a bit more with the skills having to wait longer to level up, and lastly your recruits who DON'T have the quirk will also be waiting (but they won't get the benefit that comes with the drawback). But the gap in combat efficiency will get even wider with a well-crafted Disparnumeraphobia team.

Originally posted by TheLaughingDead:
One last thing. As an experiment, I was thinking of doing an entire squad all using the same weapon, sort of as a challenge or just for fun. Any recommendations?
Every weapon has its function and its strength. If you wanted to make things interesting and avoid using ARs and SRs, Handguns are pretty damn powerful. Base 60% crit +LCK crit bonus +5% crit from Silencers. You could have a pack of Gunslingers with 70% crit with 5-LCK, and the only real downside to them is their short range.

SMGs are like a smaller, less devastating, but also much longer ranged and more accurate versions of MGs (because they can be modded). They're quite powerful, and use relatively cheap ammo. There is only 1 of the best SMG in the game, though, so 3 of your guys will be making do with a somewhat inferior gun by the end of the game.

Shotguns are the underdog weapon that has a rough start that truly begins to shine once you get burst fire variants. In my last game, Scotchmo went from being dead-last in damage and kill count to SURPASSING 6 of my rangers in damage output and kills just because the Choice trinket, careful stat upgrades, and the Jackhammer were SO GOOD! He was only behind my 12 AP core sniper who had a LONG headstart, so that was a HUGE leap in deadliness on a character with VERY poor stats, so imagine the possibilities on core rangers with good stats! However, that's a lot of the game to go through using subpar weapons to benefit from some of the best in the game, eventually. They really require careful positioning, too, to be utilized to their max.

Melee weapons save ammo, so that's really their primary upside. But there are a lot of downsides to cope with. You lose out on CS to close the distance (and CI) if you divert points toward STR so you get more crit damage for your melee weapons. Several perks will help compensate for these drawbacks, as well, but at the end of the day you're spending all your effort just trying to compensate for a weapon with so many drawbacks.

Obviously the true kings are ARs and SRs, but if you want more variety and want to try something else? My personal recommendation would be HGs, SMGs, or SGs, so take your pick. =)
TheLaughingDead Jan 8, 2018 @ 5:54pm 
I never really considered Twitchy before because most of my builds were based around another quirk or it seemed to be such a small quirk ("only 10% less chance to hit and only 20% more speed? Meh" said my past ignorant self, quotied by my present ignorant self), and it almost seemed like the very opposite of Brittle Bones. I'll definitely try it out on my next run through the game (man, it is gonna take some time to test all these builds and ideas).
If all my rangers levelled at the same pace, I could see using Disparnumeraphobia to great effect, but as it is, there are so many different skills and things in-game that will give specific rangers XP (weaponsmithing, safecracking, lockpicking, surgeon, etc) that I would either have to skimp on using those skills at certain times, or if I use them to their full effect I'll have one ranger a full level ahead of the rest, which means either I sacrifice that single ranger's effectiveness by levelling the three others on even, or the three suffer until the fourth gets back on track. Not to mention that a different ranger might start catching up/slowing down while waiting for the fourth to get back with the gang level-wise. Then again, this is on paper. I'll have to try it some time for actual results (like everything in video games, it can't just be good or bad in theory *sigh*).
Thing is, if I wanted to do an entire party centered around high crit close range, wouldn't bladed or brawling be better? Haven't used handguns a lot either, I'm not saying an all-handgun run isn't possible or won't be happening (after all, the point of an all *insert weapon here* run is for fun and not to min/max, right?), I'm just trying to think of in general in Wasteland 2 DC, bladed can do the same damage with the same crit for less AP, only difference is you need to be beside them. Doesn't sound that bad to me!
I feel like an all heavy-weapon run would be interesting, but there is only one combat shooting book and there is only one "The 3", same with SMGs, so if I went with either of those two, I would sort of plan my entire squad around the highest-tier non-unique weapon, except for one person.
All shotgun, eh? Hit 'em from every angle! Cover would not be lasting long, thats for certain. Just gotta keep the rest of the team outta the blast cone.
Thank you for the suggestions, they actually all sound like a fun run, so I guess I'll have to make time for 'em!
SnapSlav Jan 8, 2018 @ 10:23pm 
Originally posted by TheLaughingDead:
I never really considered Twitchy before [...] almost seemed like the very opposite of Brittle Bones.
If you're ever in a mode of "more AP is better", then few things seem as appealing as Brittle Bones. But one of the things that will knock you out of that mode will be something that gives you a greater appreciation for running. Twitchy is the ONLY quirk that boosts CS, while there are several that singularly reduce it. You cover ground either by having more AP or spending the same AP more efficiently, and it might sound like either will work equally well, but the reality is that the payoff-per-investment for speed GROSSLY outweighs the payoff-per-investment in AP.

Originally posted by TheLaughingDead:
If all my rangers levelled at the same pace, I could see using Disparnumeraphobia to great effect, but as it is, there are so many different skills and things in-game that will give specific rangers XP (weaponsmithing, safecracking, lockpicking, surgeon, etc) that[...]
It's quite easy to control the rate your characters level in your party. It's even easier if you know who you will or will not have join your party. In my last game I deliberately aimed to place some "room" between characters leveling, so I could leave each individually, purely so I could save/reload so they'd get the maximum hp upon leveling. Pointless, I know, but the takeaway is that I successfully engineered who would be leveling when. Something as simple as seeing a door, and having the option to pick the lock or break it down, I spent a while putting my Brute Force character to work on doors instead of my Lockpick character, and before long he was regularly half a level ahead of his nearest partner, because I focused on who used what skills. You can apply this even further in planning out who has what skills. Suffice it to say, there are many methods at your disposal that ensuring your characters level at the same time is quite easy. A bit tedious, but not difficult.

Originally posted by TheLaughingDead:
Thing is, if I wanted to do an entire party centered around high crit close range, wouldn't bladed or brawling be better? [...] I'm just trying to think of in general in Wasteland 2 DC, bladed can do the same damage with the same crit for less AP, only difference is you need to be beside them. Doesn't sound that bad to me!
Oh no, VERY different. Every weapon has its own distinct crit tables, and some weapons have unique crit rates. Though as a general rule, it goes like this: Brawling has least damage and penetration but ALWAYS crits, Bladed has better damage and great crits, but lower penetration, Blunt has the best damage and penetration, but crits the least. So few weapons gain more from Combat Shooting (ironic, considering the name) than Blunt specialists, except for that Heavy Gunner, SPECIFICALLY because of The Three (because the number for the Minigun are laughably bad) and hardly anything else. Naturally high-crit means Combat Shooting is not much of an upgrade, but naturally low crit (usually compensated for with high crit DAMAGE) means Combat Shooting is a pretty big upgrade! So if you had a team that was all melee, perhaps 1 used Brawling, 2 used Bladed (one for Proton Axe, one for This is a Knife), and 1 used Blunt, give the Combat Shooting to the Blunt guy for sure.

But more importantly is that "not all crits are created equal". For the aforementioned reasons about different weapons having different crit values, one weapon might have 1.7 crit multiplier, another might have 2.0 crit multiplier. This is precisely why The Three is so special with a 15.0 crit multiplier, not because Heavy Guns are so good, but because THAT specific Heavy Gun is so good with Combat Shooting! So even if by some freaking luck your entire team was always getting critical hits, different damage values on the weapons, different AP costs, and different penetration values means they'll be doing very different levels of damage.

Also don't neglect the perks that you have access to with specialization in particular skills. You don't get the same perks from Bladed that you get from Blunt or Brawling.

Originally posted by TheLaughingDead:
I feel like an all heavy-weapon run would be interesting, but there is only one combat shooting book and there is only one "The 3", same with SMGs, so if I went with either of those two, I would sort of plan my entire squad around the highest-tier non-unique weapon, except for one person.
Not all "unique" weapons are as valuable as each other. The Eviscerator (unique SMG) is the best SMG, but it's not the same as The Dragoon or The Three or the Gamma Ray Blaster. Energy Weapons are almost entirely redeemed solely because of the Gamma Ray Blaster, and The Dragoon is leaps and bounds better than the next-best weapon in its category, and The Three is a gimmicky weapon that's not that great without Combat Shooting but RIDICULOUS with Combat Shooting.

Really the only weapon skills that are marked by inconvenience if a team tries to use the same skills because "there's only 1" of their special weapons is EW, HW, and Bladed. The best shotguns are common. The best handguns are common. The best Brawling and SMGs are only marginally superior to the best common variants. The best sniper is very, very rare, so you'd probably use the common variant. The best ARs are common (the end-game unique one is... okay). The best Blunt weapon is common. So really just The Three, the Gamma Ray Blaster, and This is a Knife are the only weapons that limit how many characters can have "that weapon".
Last edited by SnapSlav; Jan 8, 2018 @ 10:23pm
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Date Posted: Jan 7, 2018 @ 12:28am
Posts: 7