A thread on the topic of "gatekeeping" and what is acceptable in game

[Amazinite]

Taken from the pinned Storytellers thread.

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από ShadowDragon8685:

Here, I've spent the last five hours crafting this: Pastebin[pastebin.com] an adventure starting (and probably ending) on Earth. A lot of talky, that can get the player in deep, or yield some fairly substantial rewards, depending on how they play their cards.

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Namikoyo:

I don't think it's very good writing.

James (from the initial Tutorial quest currently in Endless Sky) is a well-written character because he's gently guiding you along and introducing you to several types of missions you'll be doing in the game. The missions he offers you also depend entirely on what kind of ship you've initially bought, so it teaches you what kinds of missions you should come to expect from your ship's class. He doesn't involve you in his life heavily because he knows your life as a ship captain is just starting, and his is ending.

Victoria's story, by contrast, is all about her. It doesn't give the PC many opportunities to learn about the mechanics of the game and doesn't change depending on what kind of ship you've chosen. There's too much emphasis on liking the character of Victoria and not enough on the PC's job or future, which may be shipping cargo, hauling passengers or destroying/disabling ships.

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από ShadowDragon8685:

I feel you may have missed the forest for the trees.
Yes, it is all about Victoria; because she's a narcissistic rich kid who's acting out. The questline I wrote isn't part of the player's epic journey, it's the player finding themselves cast in the role of the supporting actor in a part of Victoria's life - and having copious opportunities to say "you know what, I'm not interested, go find someone else to be your chauffer."

It is heavily geared towards a captain who's engaging in a lot of charter flights for passengers: the payoff at the end, if they stick with Victoria, is potentially early access to a Bounder, which if the player is smart, they'll keep, selling off whatever they have and the Flivver, (Or not, maybe they'd prefer to have those around as escorts/extra bunks,) and go into business trucking people and small but urgent cargos around.

There is also the opportunity to break out of things at several times, collecting more or less pay and making a clean break of it; and also the "piratical" option to betray Victoria for a pile of credits. Even having to buy a new license, the player will still make out well on that deal, potentially pulling down 160K for a few days' work.

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Great pass!:

@ShadowDragon
Let me quote the dev of the game, MZ; this is something he wrote to me after I submitted a first draft of a new mission:

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!category-topic/endless-sky/content-creation/2Dc02ospCAI

In terms of mission prose, it's important to keep in mind that this is a game, not a novel. :) That means:

- You don't define what the player's personality is; they do. So, you should keep statements like "you think ____" or "you feel ____" to a minimum, and if the player is given a chance to do something that does indicate their personality (like, getting drunk or, say, karate chopping someone) that should be one of several choices the player can make, not something they automatically do.

- People don't want to read a ton of text, no matter how well-crafted it is. For every single sentence, you should ask, "Will the player feel like reading that sentence was a waste of time? Could I tell the same story more concisely?" A couple of paragraphs of text per mission is fine - even a whole page, if the mission is uncovering some really interesting new plot point - but longer than that and people will probably just stop reading.

Also, I'm totally not digging the sex thing. Sex is fine in games, but this is basically erotic fiction. It's up to MZ, but it seems pretty unprofessional to me - not the writing itself, the writing is fine and ironically, many people write like this for a profession - but having erotic fiction in this game doesn't seem appropriate, especially with a stereotypical rich girl daddy issues character.

Alllllll that said, I'm talking about the base game. This seems absolutely perfect for a mod, and the writing is far above what most people can do. The content itself is exactly the sort of stuff that mods provide and the main devs don't.

Nice work!

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Toilethinges:

I believe, also, that content made for the game itself is supposed to be friendly to children and adults of all ages (there are probably some younglings playing this game).

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από ShadowDragon8685:

Of all the possible things that are or could be in this game, to be frank, the loans and the bank are probably the least childsafe. Sex is at most the third.

But be that as it may, I really do need to know how I may have implied that the player character was male in that sample I wrote, because I was trying very hard to make it absolutely gender neutral, so that the player could be literally anything humanoid.

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Derpy Horse:

No.

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από ShadowDragon8685:

Financial usury and brutally slaughterin people to take their things is less childsafe than the sex scene from Avatar?

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Great pass!:

It depends on presentation, don't you think?

To me, the issue is not child safety, but rather maturity, professionalism, and expectation. That said...

I don't remember any super explicit violence in the game. There is one scene where alphas attack and you're just barely saved from death by a close-up sword kill, but I don't remember it lingering on the details or savoring violence. As part of the game, you do of course kill countless people by blowing up their ships, but it's all very disconnected. Would you argue that the Risk boardgame should have a mature rating because it involves mass killing?

By contrast, this is pretty focused on creating a dirty story.

She grins, salaciously, and you get the idea. "You. Me. The shower. Maybe a few toys. Now," she says, urgently; there's no point in fighting it. Not at this point, you're definitely in too deep, as you get off the bed, simply lifting the slender teen in your arms. She laughs as you carry her to the shower; a fancy, walk-in cube of a shower, with a bench on the back. In no time flat, the water is running, then the dyed girl pushes you back to it; before you can even raise a word of protest, she sinks to her knees, and uses her palms to spread your legs...

Maybe it's just me, but this is the kind of stuff I always skip over in the Jack Reacher books. Perhaps it's your word choice that's putting me off. You use a LOT of adjectives, the ones that are generally reserved for dirty writing. IMO it would fit into the game better without all of the "salaciously" and "slender teen" (cont. "insatiable", "her tongue questing into your mouth", "her small breasts, squeezing", etc). If I wanted 50 Shades of Gray, I'd go read it, but I don't; I want The Witcher, which uses sex to show character bonds or just stress relief, without delving into softcore porn territory.

We want the scope of this game to be very large, with tons of varied missions. It would be weird if there was no sex at all. This just seems very in-your-face.

I guess I'm rambling. I'm curious what other people think of this.

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Derpy Horse:

Agreed.

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Avior:

I think it best for my sanity if we just keep the murderdeathfirestuffs and throw away the pornography...

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Local God:

please keep the discussion on this thread limited to people soliciting for help coding/storytelling.

the discussions of the details of specific stories should have their own threads, please.

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από ShadowDragon8685:

Well, that was rude of you, just deleting my posts - and, apparently, only my posts, not Derpy's. A writer can't grow and flourish and be able to write without being able to answer criticisms of their work.

Consider my interest in contributing to Endless Sky revoked, if that's how the gatekeepers of contribution are going to treat me.

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Wrzlprnft:

He can't delete other moderators posts.

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Great pass!:

Gotta agree with you [@Shadow]. It may not have been the right place for the discussion, but it was a good discussion to be having about what belongs in ES and what doesn't, and it deserved to be moved, not unceremoniously deleted.

FWIW one of my posts was deleted, too, which took a good 20 mins to write.

For all the soliciting of free content creation, I sure don't see any that has actually made it into ES. Kind of disheartening. It's hard to feel like persisting on creating content when there doesn't seem to be a good way of saying, "Hey, Gatekeepers, should I keep working on this or not?" So far, the most I see is constructive criticism of user-created stuff with no actual indication of whether it'll be used or not. The number of pull requests with cool stuff that has been simply abandoned because MZ or whomever replied once, then ignored it, is too damn high.

Abandoned: Pilot Commendations
https://github.com/endless-sky/endless-sky/pull/350

Abandoned: Used outfits + outfitter UI updates
https://github.com/endless-sky/endless-sky/pull/852

Declined: Dynamic shadows on ships
https://github.com/endless-sky/endless-sky/issues/595

there are plenty more like this. I'm not saying that these should all be merged, but people spent a lot of their own time on this and, rather than being encouraged and guided, they got maybe one comment from MZ and were then ignored, never to return.

I've spent many hours writing my own mission and am working on the second one, but I'm starting to wonder if it's worth it. Will it get a cursory comment about some grammar mistake and then never get another official response, only to be declined half a year later?

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Local God:

unfortunately, i cannot move individual replies to this thread into another. perhaps Derpy Horse will manually copy and paste the discussion into a new thread...

the o.p. contains warnings that off-topic posts will be deleted.

sorry.
not really.

and ftr; i also deleted posts by MessyMix, Avior, warp_core, Great Pass!, grombor, Namikoyo, jafdy, and AustinLego10 - in the same purge.

it's not personal, just trying to keep things where they belong - i urge you guys to discuss matters other than requesting story integration assistance in another thread.

[Avior]

...what am I reading

[Storm Crow]

It's shadow, what did you expect

[MessyMix]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA gj ShadowTheMasterAtEroticFanfic

:+1:

[Ker]

I think the point has been made.

[☆[MLG] ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ [MLG]☆]

_the worst thread_

[SteelSirokos]

Guys, back on topic

[SteelSirokos]

I don't understand all the controversy here. Just let him write the scene with reasonable limitations. If some Tumblr SJW trigendered polyqueer non binary wolfkin gets triggered, they can just uninstall the damn mod

[Ker]

The issue isnt of the mod imho. This is an acceptable mod. Its that it shouldnt be an actual part of the actual game.

[Wispborne]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Kiko:

The issue isnt of the mod imho. This is an acceptable mod. Its that it shouldnt be an actual part of the actual game.

http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/top/?

Considering that (if you're logged in and able to view nsfw content), the #2 most popular file is a nude mod (9.4mil downloads), #12 adds breast/butt physics, #26 is a different nude mod, and #34 is a male nude mod (5.5mil downloads), I think that it would not only be fine as a mod, but probably a very popular one.

You know you've made it as a developer when people are creating nude mods for your game.

[Ker]

As stated. Its fine as a mod. That isnt the issue.

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Kiko:

The issue isnt of the mod imho. This is an acceptable mod. Its that it shouldnt be an actual part of the actual game.

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από mzahniser:

I actually think it'd be pretty hilarious if someone came up with a plugin with some good, old-school tongue-in-cheek over the top space romance, "leather space goddesses of Phobos" style. I even think there are ways that more serious romantic themes could be explored, although again probably only as plugins. But a story that's basically built around all the typical adolescent male expectations and fantasies about how adolescent females ought to operate, is problematic.

Fine as plugin. Not fine as part of the base game

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Kiko:

Ehh this got more emotional than it needed to be.

I think its stupid to limit people. Just say either mz likes it and thinks its a good fit, or he doesnt.

[ShadowDragon8685]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Kiko:

Fine as plugin. Not fine as part of the base game.

Please allow me to beg to differ.

[Ker]

Im at work. Im not going to be opening links.

Your bland, trope heavy, teen romance story doesnt fit as part of the base game. Its a plugin. Its fine as a plugin. Not good as a part of this spevific game's theme.

Would be a good fit for zigfrak or something.

I handed it off to one of my writers. He will salvage your story and make it fit this game better. Then i will be handing it back to you.

[Amazinite]

>Shows example of a sex scene in a triple A, M rated game.
>"This justifies why my writing of a sex scene should be put into the vanilla of this small, at most T rated indie game against the creator's wishes."

/thread.

[Ker]

T rated because alcohol and fantasy violence and a few mature themes.

Could be an e rated if the story and lore were modified. All the t ratings come from text.

[Ker]

Sorry for bumping this, but as promised, i had a writer friend of mine - "Knight" over on the Mothman[www.facebook.com] page - take a look at this. He said essentially the same thing as everyone else, and added,

The base idea, minus the smut, is nice. It's amusing, if a little bit quaint. A little suspension of disbelief required.

I mean, for what it's worth, what I've read isn't poorly written. It's just painfully predictable.

I think a simple chop and change would do, honestly. It would at least make it far less painful to read.

His lexicon is suitable for the genre and subject matter and the tone is certainly set, even if it is so heavy with tropes you can practically smell them.

This[drive.google.com] was his solution.

All he did was remove and replace the smut, while drunk, and it did indeed make it less painful to read.