Endless Sky

Endless Sky

local god 2016 年 6 月 28 日 下午 5:42
7ton Rail Gun
@mdsmestad has started working on outfitter sprites, and i'd like some people who weren't involved with the Gatling Gun to have a say in this weapon's spec.

requirements:
tier 1.
7 tons.
uses ammo.

thoughts?

edit; this discussion has evolved into a tutorial on Tier 1 outfit balancing. in particular, we deal with the challenge of having to extrapolate, rather than interpolate, a small weapon's effectiveness, and keep it within Tier 1 while maintaining the spirit of a Rail Gun.

the biggest takeaway from this excercise is a formula to calculate how "effective" weapons are, so that it can be measured against other attributes to find efficiencies.

(shield damage + hull damage) / reload x range

gives "efficacy", or "modified dps by range". when this figure is divided by tonnage, cost, energy/sec, heat/sec, etc., various efficiencies can also be compared with other outfits to find some numbers that fit in.

spreadsheets are your friend. if you don't already have one, OpenOffice[www.openoffice.org] is free.
最後修改者:local god; 2016 年 7 月 3 日 下午 8:37
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Sinsling 2016 年 7 月 3 日 下午 1:00 
weapon ammo "Railgun Ammo" icon "icon/Railgun" sound "final explosion small" "inaccuracy" 4.75 "velocity" 12.5 "acceleration" 2.5 "drag" .1 "lifetime" 32 "reload" 160 "firing energy" 148 "firing heat" 365 sprite "projectile/pellet" "frame rate" 30 "shield damage" 95 "hull damage" 200 "hit force" 44 "missile strength" 14 "piercing" .1
Thanks derpy.
最後修改者:Sinsling; 2016 年 7 月 3 日 下午 1:02
Amazinite  [開發人員] 2016 年 7 月 3 日 下午 1:01 
Use code tags plz.
[.code]Coded in here[./code]
Remove periods.
local god 2016 年 7 月 3 日 下午 1:04 
引用自 Sinsling
weapon ammo "Railgun Ammo" icon "icon/Railgun" sound "final explosion small" "inaccuracy" 4.75 "velocity" 12.5 "acceleration" 2.5 "drag" .1 "lifetime" 32 "reload" 160 "firing energy" 148 "firing heat" 365 sprite "projectile/pellet" "frame rate" 30 "shield damage" 95 "hull damage" 200 "hit force" 44 "missile strength" 14 "piercing" .1
in a few instances, variables are integers, and cannot have decimals. velocity and inaccuracy fall into this category.

and your damage is still way too high.
try more in the 50-60 and 100-110 range...
最後修改者:local god; 2016 年 7 月 3 日 下午 1:09
Sinsling 2016 年 7 月 3 日 下午 1:12 
引用自 local god
in a few instances, variables are integers, and cannot have decimals. velocity and inaccuracy fall into this category.
The accel-drag determines the moving speed of the rpojectile anyways. The only thing I need is to be able to display the actual effective range of the weapon. Decimals in the velocity number do affect this, since range is formulated with velocityXlifetime.

最後修改者:Sinsling; 2016 年 7 月 3 日 下午 1:13
local god 2016 年 7 月 3 日 下午 1:18 
引用自 Sinsling
引用自 local god
in a few instances, variables are integers, and cannot have decimals. velocity and inaccuracy fall into this category.
The accel-drag determines the moving speed of the rpojectile anyways. The only thing I need is to be able to display the actual effective range of the weapon. Decimals in the velocity number do affect this, since range is formulated with velocityXlifetime.
so why aren't you setting the initial velocity to be the same as the eventual acceleration/drag result?

when i use velocity 12, lifetime 100, acceleration 1.2 and drag .1, everything hashes out...
最後修改者:local god; 2016 年 7 月 3 日 下午 1:19
Sinsling 2016 年 7 月 3 日 下午 1:20 
引用自 local god

and your damage is still way too high.
try more in the 50-60 and 100-110 range...

Keep in mind the realised shield damage per shot is 85.5 with 20 hull bleedthrough with a 2.3 second reload. It has a fairly comparitive dps to beam lasers, an energy cost nearly equivilant to energy blasters, and an incredible heat requirement. Still working on tweaking them to be a little more heavy on lighter ship systems.
local god 2016 年 7 月 3 日 下午 1:25 
引用自 Sinsling
引用自 local god

and your damage is still way too high.
try more in the 50-60 and 100-110 range...

Keep in mind the realised shield damage per shot is 85.5 with 20 hull bleedthrough with a 2.3 second reload. It has a fairly comparitive dps to beam lasers, an energy cost nearly equivilant to energy blasters, and an incredible heat requirement. Still working on tweaking them to be a little more heavy on lighter ship systems.
the piercing stat is irrelevant (and in fact trades off 10% shield damage (9.5), for 10% direct hull damage (20) - balances opposite to your proposition)

i'm telling you that your weapon does way too much dps to be tier one, or even 1.1(Hai).

the heat and energy costs balance the per-ton efficacy (at the damage figures i've given you), and nothing more - don't nerf those, when you cut the damage.

edit; to be clearer - the dps may be similar to the beam laser, but since community feedback suggests this weapon should have a much longer range, the balance tradeoff must come in the form of dps to maintain its technological tier.

edit2; keep in mind that you are designing this weapon for a tier one drone - don't be too heavy handed with the heat/energy costs.
最後修改者:local god; 2016 年 7 月 3 日 下午 1:56
Sinsling 2016 年 7 月 3 日 下午 1:59 
I am trying to compare it to a beam laser at the moment, because I assume that the beam laser is a t1 weapon. I'm not seeing the discrepency.

The beam laser has nearly 70% more dps when a target's shield is up (piercing included), nearly identical hull dps when shields are down, 50% of the energy cost, and 40% of the heat generation per ton with no ammo requirement and instantanious damage delivery.

The only advantage the railgun has going for it is range, which requires you to be faster than your target to take advantage of. Which, pirate fury missle boats prove don't always work. And they have homing ammunition with 6000 range from what I -assume- is a t2 missle launcher(meteors).

If I where to give this weapon a dps of around 18 (50 + pierce per shot) vs a shielded target and 37 (100 per shot) vs unshielded, should I increased the ammo capacity?
Sinsling 2016 年 7 月 3 日 下午 2:04 
引用自 local god

edit; to be clearer - the dps may be similar to the beam laser, but since community feedback suggests this weapon should have a much longer range, the balance tradeoff must come in the form of dps to maintain its technological tier.

edit2; keep in mind that you are designing this weapon for a tier one drone - don't be too heavy handed with the heat/energy costs.
How long is long? My original plan was to hit 1200 range, but I could see going lower in damage past that.

I've been using a sparrow for testing, so I mgiht have to refit it to be closer to a drone's heat/energy capabilities for testing.
Amazinite  [開發人員] 2016 年 7 月 3 日 下午 2:12 
引用自 Sinsling
what I -assume- is a t2 missle launcher(meteors).
T1 is anything human. T1.1 is hai. 2 is Korath and Wanderers, 3 is Quarg, and 4 is Drak.
最後修改者:Amazinite; 2016 年 7 月 3 日 下午 2:13
local god 2016 年 7 月 3 日 下午 2:15 
引用自 Sinsling
I am trying to compare it to a beam laser at the moment, because I assume that the beam laser is a t1 weapon. I'm not seeing the discrepency.

The beam laser has nearly 70% more dps when a target's shield is up (piercing included), nearly identical hull dps when shields are down, 50% of the energy cost, and 40% of the heat generation per ton with no ammo requirement and instantanious damage delivery.

The only advantage the railgun has going for it is range, which requires you to be faster than your target to take advantage of. Which, pirate fury missle boats prove don't always work. And they have homing ammunition with 6000 range from what I -assume- is a t2 missle launcher(meteors).
so, because we cannot compare apples and apples, and we're forced to compare them to oranges, or maybe pears.

meteors, sidewinders, torpedoes and typhoons carry tradeoffs that don't really apply very well in this instance, because they are much slower and easier to dodge or run away from. they're still tier 1, but the projectiles carry balance points that don't really apply to more-or-less straight shooters.

so, we could try to look at the Javelin and the Heavy Laser, and then try to see how our Rail Gun compares to the Beam Laser with that knowledge...

If I where to give this weapon a dps of around 18 (50 + pierce per shot) vs a shielded target and 37 (100 per shot) vs unshielded, should I increased the ammo capacity?
increased ammo capacity would be consistent.
引用自 Sinsling
How long is long? My original plan was to hit 1200 range, but I could see going lower in damage past that.
1200 is sufficiently long range, but keep in mind that it's almost quadruple that of the Beam Laser, and a ship equipped with it could kite the beam equipped ship, and never feel a scratch.
Sinsling 2016 年 7 月 3 日 下午 2:15 
引用自 Derpy Horse
T1 is anything human. T1.1 is hai. 2 is Korath and Wanderers, 3 is Quarg, and 4 is Drak.
Just to confirm, the railgun is intended for a hai combat drone correct? or just drones in general?
Storm Crow 2016 年 7 月 3 日 下午 2:16 
引用自 Sinsling
引用自 Derpy Horse
T1 is anything human. T1.1 is hai. 2 is Korath and Wanderers, 3 is Quarg, and 4 is Drak.
Just to confirm, the railgun is intended for a hai combat drone correct? or just drones in general?
Human.
local god 2016 年 7 月 3 日 下午 2:20 
引用自 Sinsling
引用自 Derpy Horse
T1 is anything human. T1.1 is hai. 2 is Korath and Wanderers, 3 is Quarg, and 4 is Drak.
Just to confirm, the railgun is intended for a hai combat drone correct? or just drones in general?
we're going to be adding it with the Fairyfly (Hai Drone) as its weapon.

currently, the Pulse Cannon is the smallest Hai weapon, and it's simply too large to cram the weapon, engines and necessary power into a T1 drone.

I suppose we could put the Gatlings in, but this Rail Gun seems much more Hai, and the Gatling is very human (even named after one)...
最後修改者:local god; 2016 年 7 月 3 日 下午 5:37
Sinsling 2016 年 7 月 3 日 下午 2:38 
Ok, so I have been using a sparrow as my test ship, which has some advantages over the human combat drone. Can I expect the hai drone as a 1.1 to be somewhat better than the human drone in terms of energy/heat?
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張貼日期: 2016 年 6 月 28 日 下午 5:42
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